User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 5:06:47 AM EDT
[#1]
458 SOCOM. Reason I purchased over the 50 Beowulf was due to the availability of reloading projectiles. I was going to buy a 50, and started pricing/looking for 50 projectiles. There were only about 4-5 different ones available, but I saw over a DOZEN .458 projectiles, and nearly every major manufacturer listed at least one bullet in .458.
I actually called Alexander Arms up to ask how much it would cost to make a custom .458 Beowulf! They turned me on to the SOCOM!!!! Beowulf has benefited by the the creation of the 500 S&W Magnum. More projectiles are slowly showing up in the market. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:03:53 AM EDT
[#2]
Initially my decision went to the .458 SOCOM because:
1) it was the only one out at the time. (about 2 years ago *) 2) uses standard USGI mags (unmodified) 3) reliability documented by numerous end users 4) bullet options 5) Superb costumer service from teppojutsu and TROMIX. The only negative at the time was a lack of brass, but after a few arf.com group purchases from Starline, I’m all set. The 50 Beowulf would be my second choice. I still think, all things considering I’d still go with the .458 if I had to do it all over again. Like a proud father, I have to show pics of my baby every chance I get… ->[url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=174293&w=searchPop] MJOLNIR[/url] *NOTE: there were a few other TROMIX big-bore uppers like the 50AE, but most all use modified mags. Best, - LS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:08:14 AM EDT
[#3]
One day... I gotta get me a lower with that "extra" setting...
[url]1919a4.com/gca/keith_458socom.avi[/url] - LS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:12:13 AM EDT
[#4]
458 SOCOM
Availability of a custom upper designed and constructed by [url=www.teppojutsu.com]Marty ter Weeme[/url] or [url=www.tromix.com]Tony Rumore[/url]. Availability of projectiles ranging from 250gr to 600gr. Ability to load 500gr and 600gr subsonic projectiles for social work. Use of un-modified USGI mags. Headspacing based on the shoulder of the cartridge which, in theory, leads to slightly better accuracy. Tromix had been building big bore uppers since way back, they knew the tricks of the big bore trade -- trusted source of GREAT workmanship. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 7:00:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Beowulf uses unmodified mags , they suggest that you bend the feedlips out slightly, but I have found they work when "stock" also.
Reason I got the Beowulf over a .458 SOCOM.... cause a .458 aint a .50 [bounce] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 7:11:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Reason I got the Beowulf over a .458 SOCOM.... cause a .458 aint a .50 [bounce] and a .50 440gr isn't a 500gr .458, nor is it a 600gr .458.......[jump] [url=http://www.billstclair.com/energy.html]Energy Computer[/url] Diameter doesn't change the energy delivered.....[lol] [;)] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 8:09:28 AM EDT
[#7]
I wanted the .50 Beowulf in the WORST way. Then I did the research. The .50 Beowulf headspaces on the mouth, therefore you cannot put a really heavy crimp on it if you want/need to. It uses limited .500 handgun bullets instead of the more common .510 bullets. The .50 B MAY need to have the magazines altered to feed correctly, making those mags possibly unusable in .223. The .458 headspaces on the shoulder, you can crimp as heavily as you want, a tremendous amount of .458 bullets from 250-600 gr. are readily available, and no mag alterations are needed.
Then the kicker came for me. The .50 B was not living up to its accuracy expectations. While 1" groups were being advertised, I started seeing more and more people having trouble getting groups that small, or even close. The .458 SOCOM has no trouble getting MOA groups or better, and mine proved to be no exception. As much as I wanted the .50 B to sort of go along with my Encore .50 Alaskan and possible .500 S&W purchase, my better judgement won out and I got the .458 SOCOM. I really did not want the .458 SOCOM at first as I already have 5 .45-70s and I see the .458 SOCOM as being nothing more than a semi-auto 45-70, and I wanted the bigger bore .50. However, it made no since to me to get something that was so much inferior IMO to the much more versatile, and accurate .458 SOCOM. Looking back, I am really glad I made the decision I did. I have already received three calls from my dealer regarding people bringing in .50 B rifles and uppers wanting to sell them. They (my dealer) have no use for the arm as they don’t think they can sell it, but they have called me to let me know in case I wanted them, as they knew that I was hot-to-trot over the .50 B at one time. All three guys said the same thing, factory ammo too expensive and they could not get the accuracy out of the rifle they thought they would. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 10:05:53 AM EDT
[#8]
The twist is too fast in the Alexander Arms guns. I tried to tell them a year ago, but they told me I was full of shit, and they were the big bore AR-15 experts......
The 50 Beowulf needs about a 1:30 twist barrel. I use 1:25 for the 50AE's and 1:38 in the 440 CorBon. During initial testing, I found the faster twist barrels were very inconsistent with top end loads. Many times throwing 3 or 4 shots into one hole and then slinging one or two out of the group. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:45:56 PM EDT
[#9]
How much does the factory .458 SOCOM run? The .50 Beowulf runs about 25 bucks for 20 rnds. I don't reload now, but plan to start with the purchase of one of these uppers (go figure!!). Leaning heavily toward the .458 now.
Doc |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 6:52:10 PM EDT
[#10]
The Corbon 300gr 458 SOCOM is $31/box for 20rds.
If you are going to reload this would be the round to do it with. Though it should not be the round you learn on -- or so I am told. [:D] It can get as low as .57 cents per loaded round...when you roll your own. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/8/2003 11:47:38 PM EDT
[#11]
This is really what I’m looking for, thanks guys. Sounds like these weapons have substantially more recoil than the 5.56 rifles. How does the rifle (aluminum receivers) hold up? Thanks again.
-J |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#12]
so, a 458 SOCOM like this?
[img]http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/1103/Monster11/arf/m15a2SBR.02_Thumper.gif[/img] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 4:54:39 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: This is really what I’m looking for, thanks guys. Sounds like these weapons have substantially more recoil than the 5.56 rifles. How does the rifle (aluminum receivers) hold up? Thanks again. -J In my opinion, firing the 300gr Corbon loads {read: safe but still pretty good}, a preban collapsible stocked AR kicks about like a .243 or maybe like a 150gr .308Win. With a HB, an A2 stock, and maybe some heavier optics, it isn't too bad. However, you do know you've shot the thing when it goes off. Now, I am told that the full 405gr loads pushing 1500fps or so really kick....I used to have a 444 Marlin, which was a similar, but lighter rifle and it kicked about as hard as you'd like......not too bad on either count. They are very fun, very accurate, and very addictive. You have been warned....[;)] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 4:59:36 AM EDT
[#14]
The receivers hold up fine. All the stresses are contained within the bolt and barrel extension. Once the bullet passes the gas port, the gun effectively behaves as an AR15.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 1:58:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Ok I have to chime in on the Beowulf side.
I never looked seriously at the .458 SOCOM but I did do a lot of research on the Beowulf and found that it is a great gun. I own one now and am not disappointed. It is light and powerful and the recoil is easily manageable with a recoil pad. I do not reload and noticed that SOCOM rounds are more expensive off the shelf (especially if you get the heavier ones) I get my Beowulf ammo locally for $21.95 per 20rd box (325gr holowpoints or 334FMJ). I am sure the SOCOM is also a great gun but for the most part they have similar ballistics (unless you want to get the monster 600gr 458's and then it's time to switch out for an HH mag rifle and be done with it) so IMNSHO I think for the casual shooter who enjoys good accuracy (Mine shoots sub MOA at 100M) and heavy target shooting and/or the enjoyment of wreaking havoc on anything that you care to "plink" the Beowulf is the better choice for a heavy carry rifle. My $.02 RGUARD |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 2:27:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Why would this round be a bad for a first time reloader? I've been looking at the .458 for a few months now and want to reload as well.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/9/2003 2:37:50 PM EDT
[#17]
RE: First time reloaders.....
This case requires some TLC when being formed up, the pressure required for forming can render the case hopelessly stuck in the sizing die if improperly lubed. This is not an issue with .03 cent .45acp brass, but can be quite an issue with .45 cent 458 SOCOM brass.... Also, the crimping and seating is kind of critical, where it is not so much on a straight walled pistol case. These are just hearsay, but I believe they were offered up as warnings and good faith helping for novices like me. FWIW, I have known of two guys to cut their teeth on the 458 SOCOM as their first reloading project. Ed |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 9:55:41 AM EDT
[#18]
With pre-formed brass from Starline, and GOOD dies from Lee, reloading the 458 is not much different than any other bottle-necked rifle cartridge.
In fact, the Lee dies are even easier to use than most rifle dies because they are more like a 4-die pistol set than a 3 die rifle set. The expander/mouth flare die is not normally part of a rifle set. Be sure to lube the brass well, and use at least the first 3 Lee dies: 1. Decap/resize die 2. Inside neck size die/flare (I talked to one reloader who was having trouble because he wasn't using this die!) 3. Bullet seating die/taper crimp 4. Optional Factory Crimp die. The FCD is optional because the bullet seating die will provide somewhat of a taper crimp if set properly. Straight walled pistol is still where I recommend someone start loading....Just seems easier with the carbide dies that don't require lube, and if you screw up a $0.05 casing, you just pitch it rather than try to salvage a $0.47 SOCOM casing.... If you want to start with rifle, you can learn just about everything you need by loading the original caliber of your AR: .223 or 7.62X39. Those casings are pretty cheap too... Welcome to the big-bore world! Ask as many questions as you like! No question is silly when you are dealing with 35,000+ psi! longshot, that AR with the extra setting didn't look like it recoiled enough for a 458...Maybe those were subsonic loads??? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 10:49:09 AM EDT
[#19]
I am going to ad my vote for the 50 Beowulf. For the same reason mentioned above. I am not a reloader. So for me the ease of walking into my local shop and grabbing a couple of boxes of ammo is great. When I do my part it hold 1 moa. I have nothing bad to say about the 458 it looks like a great round but having to reload for it is what kept me from buying one.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 1:35:33 PM EDT
[#20]
I purchased a 458 from Marty for most of the reasons posted above. I will also add that for me, part of the decision was also based on the "Walmart vs. Your Local Gun Shop" theory. With Marty, my project was a complete custom upper, with all of the interactions/decisions that are required. Marty is first rate, and he was and continues to be there when I need him. With the 50, you are probably gonna get it from a large supplier, or even at your local shop, you are probably gonna be hard pressed to get any customer service, regarding questions or problems. I have not interfaced with Alexander Arms, but my suspicion from what I have read is that it would be a far cry from what you would get with Marty or Tony. You get two guys who care, and want everything to be right. They will be candid with you, and very helpful. If you have a problem, or need advice, would you like to have a big corporation to call, or a small shop, where customer service IS the bottom line.
While both calibers have similar ballistics, and both have similar costs for ammo (you might want to argue this but I feel that any serious shooter that has an AR in the first place is used to spending serious cash on this particular addiction), this is where the comparison ends. One is a custom piece, with all of the associated requirements and rewards, and the other is a mass produced weapon, with it's own requirements and rewards. I own mass produced guns, and a few custom guns. Each has a place in my collection. Craig |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 1:39:37 PM EDT
[#21]
But rolling your own ammo is so much more fun. That way, you have ammo that is custom tailored to your gun, and will most likely out perform any factory round that is out there. It is much cheaper in the long run too.
My vote is for .458 SOCOM, because of the bullet selection, no mag tweaking, popularity, and it is supposed to be more accurate. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 2:34:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Well said Bearbait1, these are all specialty weapons and run very similar ballistics. It really comes down to what you as an owner want and when you blow through all the hype and bs, what you are happy with. Just my '02.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 2:47:14 PM EDT
[#23]
I have worked with all three of these guys, Tony from Tromix, Marty from Tepsu and The crew at Alex Arms.
I cut my teeth in the big bores with a 50AE from Tony. Then got a Beowolf. Marty has made a custom 30 caliber barrel for me and I will eventually get a 458 from him cause I dont have one.... The accuracy I have gotten has been about 1" from the beowolf with factory ammo. There is a 550+ grain projectile for the Beowolf and someone has developed a suppressor for it also....think it might almost be time to get the little 11.5" beowolf and suppressor for my M16!!! Quoted: With the 50, you are probably gonna get it from a large supplier, or even at your local shop, you are probably gonna be hard pressed to get any customer service, regarding questions or problems. I have not interfaced with Alexander Arms, but my suspicion from what I have read is that it would be a far cry from what you would get with Marty or Tony. Craig As far as customer service, They are all great. Bearbait1: Your suspicions are wrong about customer service from alexender arms. Bill Alexander is anal retentive (no offense Bill) about his guns, it aint going out unless it is perfect. He actually produces alot of his own parts just to garuantee the parts meet quality and specs. There number is listed on the website and will take care of problems. As far as a HUGE corporation, they are not a huge operation with hundreds of employees. But they are growing and wish to get bigger, one of the things that is required in doing this is supporting your local dealer network. Just like us, they are (or already have) going to eliminate retail sales. Don't take this as not having customer service, this means they are supporting your local gunshop. If you have questions, send them an email, it is just that easy. Your negatively judging a company that you just stated, have never dealt with. There are more and more bullets coming out for the Beowolf besides just using the ones for the 50AE....300grn, 325, 334, 350, 440, 550+ with several variations in each weight from frangible to FMJ....... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 3:11:31 PM EDT
[#24]
ILove2Shoot, do you have links to sources for those heavier bullets in .50? I'd like to check them out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 5:25:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: There are more and more bullets coming out for the Beowolf besides just using the ones for the 50AE....300grn, 325, 334, 350, 440, 550+ with several variations in each weight from frangible to FMJ....... That is awesome!!! The Beowulf and .500 S&W fans are going to be thrilled. As well as the previously snubbed 50AE folks... However, I find it hard to believe that anything will match the projectile selection for the 458.....though I could be wrong. This is good news any way you slice it though. Very good news.....[:D] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/10/2003 11:39:45 PM EDT
[#26]
The projectiles the 458 SOCOM is using appear to be the same as those the 458 Win Mag uses. These have been around for a long time. Whereas the .50 pills seem to come and go. With more 50cal weapons on the market hopefully more would come and stay than go.
So, the mags have to be modified for the 50 Beowulf. Does either caliber require the follower in the mag to be changed? Thanks again folks, this is great stuff. -J |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 4:35:05 AM EDT
[#27]
As to the modification of the Beowulf mags.
Nothing HAS to be done, I have shot 325gr through a borrowed mag with no modifications. However I have heard it is a good idea and can see on my clip from Alexander arms that the feed lips are bent out a bit. Nothing that can't be changed back and I have not tried shooting .223 through my clip to see if they are adversely effected by the bend, but it is nothing major and can be skipped in a pinch. RGUARD |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 4:49:50 AM EDT
[#28]
The mags for the .458 SOCOM require absolutely nothing to be done to them.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 5:42:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Neither Beowulf nor the 458 SOCOM mags need a follower change.
I have seen on the AA website that they recommend a possible mag change as noted above. There is a reason they recommend it, though I have shot with ANGST and he says he has not modded any mags {well, since I last saw him shoot the Beowulf}. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 9:57:18 AM EDT
[#30]
458 socom: 24in barrel
300gr 2100 fps 500gr 1300 fps 50 beowulf 24in barrel 325gr 2070 fps 400gr 1920 fps Those two are very close in FPS with the 300 and 325gr projectiles. The beowulfs trajectory is up 3 1/2in at 75 yards and down 7in at 200 yards so this bullet go's up and down 10 and 1/2 inches in 200 yards. This bullet will only drop off faster the farther it go's... Thats bad man, throw a rock it'll fly flater. [:D] I have to assume the .458 socom is close to the same trajectory because muzzle velocity and energy is so close . I have three words for you guys, BUY A SHOTGUN! You get The same preformance only larger diameter slugs and you can use HEAVYER slugs if you want, buckshot, and birdshot! A assault weapon version of the saiga 12 will only run you $300.00 + 10 round mags when the ban sunsets. The socom and beowulf are a waste anyway, it defeats the purpose of the AR15. It's not lite anymore, you cant carry a lot of ammo because it weighs so much and is so big. A 30rd mag only holds 10 rounds, a MWG 90rd drum only holds 30 rounds. They are an overpriced piece of shit if you ask me. Like I said, buy a shotgun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:08:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Buy a shotgun! What sort of shit is that? Sure if you want a maximum accurate range of 40 yards and questionable reliability in an autoloader.
As for the weapons not being light, although the barrel is bigger it's got a bigger hole in it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:12:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: 458 socom: 24in barrel 300gr 2100 fps 500gr 1300 fps 50 beowulf 24in barrel 325gr 2070 fps 400gr 1920 fps Those two are very close in FPS with the 300 and 325gr projectiles. The beowulfs trajectory is up 3 1/2in at 75 yards and down 7in at 200 yards so this bullet go's up and down 10 and 1/2 inches in 200 yards. This bullet will only drop off faster the farther it go's... Thats bad man, throw a rock it'll fly flater. [:D] I have to assume the .458 socom is close to the same trajectory because muzzle velocity and energy is so close . I have three words for you guys, BUY A SHOTGUN! You get The same preformance only larger diameter slugs and you can use HEAVYER slugs if you want, buckshot, and birdshot! A assault weapon version of the saiga 12 will only run you $300.00 + 10 round mags when the ban sunsets. The socom and beowulf are a waste anyway, it defeats the purpose of the AR15. It's not lite anymore, you cant carry a lot of ammo because it weighs so much and is so big. A 30rd mag only holds 10 rounds, a MWG 90rd drum only holds 30 rounds. They are an overpriced piece of shit if you ask me. Like I said, buy a shotgun. Shotgun huh? Does a shotgun run well with a RR or a lightning link? Wonder what a suppressor does for shotguns? If a shotgun was the answer, then you answered the wrong question. [slap] [stick] [nuts] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:22:02 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: 458 socom: 24in barrel 300gr 2100 fps 500gr 1300 fps 50 beowulf 24in barrel 325gr 2070 fps 400gr 1920 fps I have three words for you guys, BUY A SHOTGUN! You get The same preformance only larger diameter slugs and you can use HEAVYER slugs if you want, buckshot, and birdshot! A assault weapon version of the saiga 12 will only run you $300.00 + 10 round mags when the ban sunsets. They are an overpriced piece of shit if you ask me. Like I said, buy a shotgun. I will make my comment short and to the point: Show me a shotgun that will keep 1 MOA at 100yds! Please troll elsewhere....(And make better arguments) Nuf said. RGUARD |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:25:54 AM EDT
[#34]
At 100yds you really only need 6MOA to get two slugs on a man-size target.
I believe the Mossberg bolt action rifled slug gun can do it. Not sure though..... But then you have a big bore centerfire rifle....not a buckshot, birdshot, sluggun..... Oh, well.......guess the shotgun is STILL not the single answer to everything. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:45:37 AM EDT
[#35]
You have a much longer effective range with a shotgun than 40 yards get real or get lost.
Autoloading shotgun like the saiga 12 is an AK variant and will be more reliable than an AR15. With 12 gauge you can fire 220 grain 1/2ounce high velocity slugs, all the way up to 1 3/8 ounce 605 slug. The Brenneke 1 3/8 ounce slug flys 1502fps 3017 ftlbs thats better than a .458 500gr at 1300 You can easily shoot tight groups at a 100 yards, with a rifled barrel it'll give the socom a run. With the shotgun you have the ability to shoot all different buckshot, birdshot, slugs, saboted slugs, all the specialty rounds like CS, CN, OC, flashbang, bean bags, rubber baton, rubber buckshot exc. exc. exc. Hell of a lot better weapon if you want to go that big, costs a lot less too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 10:59:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: You have a much longer effective range with a shotgun than 40 yards get real or get lost. Autoloading shotgun like the saiga 12 is an AK variant and will be more reliable than an AR15. With 12 gauge you can fire 220 grain 1/2ounce high velocity slugs, all the way up to 1 3/8 ounce 605 slug. The Brenneke 1 3/8 ounce slug flys 1502fps 3017 ftlbs thats better than a .458 500gr at 1300 You can easily shoot tight groups at a 100 yards, with a rifled barrel it'll give the socom a run. With the shotgun you have the ability to shoot all different buckshot, birdshot, slugs, saboted slugs, all the specialty rounds like CS, CN, OC, flashbang, bean bags, rubber baton, rubber buckshot exc. exc. exc. Hell of a lot better weapon if you want to go that big, costs a lot less too. Failed to answer the question. How does a shotgun run with a RR or lightning link? How well does a suppressor work on a 12ga slug gun. Does it work with buckshot? How does the 5.56x45 upper fit on a shotgun? Yep. You are definitely off in left field. Just admit that you don't understand the design elements of the 458 SOCOM/50 Beowulf/499 LW and move on. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 11:15:12 AM EDT
[#37]
with buckshot the ammount of bullets you can put down range with one shot beats anything short of a mini gun sure it dosent have the MV but you only need aprox 150 yards range. You dont even need a FA shotgun.
Your just trying to piss me off with your last post and made yourself look like an ass, I understand the design elements of the weapons. I have used them, as far as im conserned it's a total waste. You would be better off picking up an ar10, then you get a flat flying round in .243 or .308 that actualy has long range capabilitys and is PRACTICAL. A RR, lightning link, or suppressor had nothing to do with the conversation, and dosent apply because most people dont have any of those things. The socom or beowulf will kick so much on auto it'll be all over the place. Why would you even want FA on a gun with only 10 round mags? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 11:45:00 AM EDT
[#38]
[rolleyes]
SHIVAN is going to have a field day with you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 11:45:35 AM EDT
[#39]
JustLOOking,
The 458SOCOM isn't limited to 10 rounds. The 40 round steel mags hold 14 quite nicely. Also, you've obviously not seen the videos of the SOCOM on full auto. It looks pretty controllable to me. There's no guarantee that there will ever be 10 round mags for the Saiga. Also, my mag pouches are made for AR mags, so carrying extra mags isn't an issue. I haven't seen any mag pouches for the Saiga. A 10 round mag for 12ga rounds would be huge. Using 250gr Barnes bullets at 2200 fps, the SOCOM can get a flatter trajectory for longer ranges. AR10's are nice, but their suppressed performance will be worse than the SOCOM. An AR10 can't fire 500-600gr bullets at 1050fps. Finally, I really doubt Shivan was trying to piss you off. [;D] He'd _never_ do that! |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 11:50:00 AM EDT
[#40]
I love it.
Whenever somebody asks a question like this, some jackass has to step in: "458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf?" "Shotgun!" Justlooking...I assume that you bought none of your weapons because you just WANTED them? This has nothing to do with whether or not the weapons platform is the best for every situation. The simple fact is, JTR8541 simply WANTS one, and he did NOT ask if the shotgun was better, nor did he ask you to let him know that they are "overpriced pieces of shit". By the way, Saiga's are excellent for mounting optics on, right? [rolleyes] You can get 10 round mas for the .459/.499/.50 NOW. Can you do that with the Saiga? Nope. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 12:13:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Justl00king, I don't know what planet you are from or what you are on but it ain't reality.
We shot a Remington 870 with a 1oz copper slug against body armor at 25 yards. The slug failed to penetrate. The Beowulf, Socom and .499 all penetrated the vest and the sandbag behind the vest, there was also limited penetration out to 100 yards. Whilst the Remington could get there it was difficult to hit the target and did not have sufficient knock down ability to be effective at that range. The .499 penetrated a trauma plate at 100 yards. All three were capable of penetrating windshields, vests and ballistic gelatin - the shotgun was ineffective. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 12:19:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: with buckshot the ammount of bullets you can put down range with one shot beats anything short of a mini gun sure it dosent have the MV but you only need aprox 150 yards range. You dont even need a FA shotgun.[red]Really? So when I want to deliver 2000 lbs of energy on a single point that is .458" in diameter or .50" in diameter, what buckshot gives me those numbers?? Oh that's right 000 uses .36 soft lead projectiles...projectiles which have been known to deform and scrub speed thus reducing effectiveness, but I'm sure you knew that...[rolleyes][/red] Your just trying to piss me off with your last post and made yourself look like an ass, I understand the design elements of the weapons.[red]Based on your comments to this point, you have NO CLUE about what the 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, or 499 LW were designed to do...this is obvious. Make myself look like an ass? When the discussion is over we'll let the rest of the boys decide who looks like an ass. mmkay??[/red] I have used them, as far as im conserned it's a total waste. You would be better off picking up an ar10, then you get a flat flying round in .243 or .308 that actualy has long range capabilitys and is PRACTICAL.[red]You have used what? A 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf or 499 LW? I have an AR10, the design criteria of the three uppers I mentioned is not in the same element as the AR10. An AR10 or an M1A/M14 is commonly used in combat when a target is expected to present itself at a greater effective distance than the 5.56x45 is good for....like in the sandbo of Afghanistan. The 458 SOCOM/50 Beowulf/499 LW was designed as a precision CQB type weapon for up close and personal social work -- including the use of frangible ammo for use inside steel hulled freighters/light construction homes, etc....[/red] A RR, lightning link, or suppressor had nothing to do with the conversation, and dosent apply because most people dont have any of those things.[red]Actually, this is where you missed what the design elements are for the rounds. I know for a fact that the 500gr 458 SOCOM round is designed an published on the 'net SPECIFICALLY for use with a suppressor. In fact, I know of two folks who have suppressors in bound for their 458 SOCOM's, with me contemplating the purchase as well. The very nature of the subsonic load in 500gr slugs provides a very stealthy and effective alternative to using a 9mmx19 or 45acp suppressed MP5.....hell of a lot more energy delivered to target too. Oh, and QUIET.....and full auto. So please, just admit that you had no idea. Further, the 499 LW was partially adopted for use by the Coasties on boat raid parties, on M16's.....[/red] The socom or beowulf will kick so much on auto it'll be all over the place. Why would you even want FA on a gun with only 10 round mags?[red]Actually, the 458 SOCOM doesn't kick that much at all with rapid fire. Nor does it look very intimidating on full auto. If you had fired one, your writings would NOT be suppositions, they would be facts. You don't have any. [url=http://1919a4.com/gca/keith_458socom.avi]Full Auto 458 SOCOM[/url][/red] Just admit that you don't have a fucking clue and we'll stop the dogpiling now...... Or maybe you want to bring your weak shit over to [b]the Pit[/b] and we'll do a little wager on the outcome....you game??? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 12:22:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: When the discussion is over we'll let the rest of the boys decide who looks like an ass. mmkay?? Oh! Oh! I know! I know! Pick me! [bounce] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/11/2003 6:59:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: so, a 458 SOCOM like this? [url]http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/1103/Monster11/arf/m15a2SBR.02_Thumper.gif[/url] Sure, we can build one like that, as a matter of fact, we did one with a stainless barrel and no flash hider. Or we can get a little esoteric and build this: [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=20407[/img] And now guys, play nice, or I will have to break out the .500 Phantom (hey, HipFired, you might like this one. How does a 750 AMax at 1040 from an AR-10 strike you? BTW, can you Email me, have some questions on your tests, wondering if I can quote you on them ...) Marty Edited to fix link to image |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/12/2003 7:25:09 PM EDT
[#45]
We have just completed our 2nd deer season in Wis, with 4 Beowulfs.
17 deer, all broadside, no projectile recovery, all with 300 or 325 gr Speer bullets. ranges varied from 40 to 120 yds. the farthest any traveled was one car length. We have used various shotguns over the years, all in 12ga, and the terminal effects are substantially less with the shotgun, regardless of the projectile, probably due to velocity or slug/sabot design. They will all kill eventually, but trailing a deer in the rain is not good for many reasons. The 50 Beowulf w/Aimpoint is an outstanding all-weather (rain) rifle. Keep your shotguns in the duck blind. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/12/2003 7:41:26 PM EDT
[#46]
You can buy a Chevy. You can soup it up. You can get speed, and 0-50 quick times galore, and then mass produce it.
You can buy something hand made, researched with love and compassion, much closer to perfection, and made by men who care. You get a 458 Socom! |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/13/2003 2:30:24 AM EDT
[#47]
The socom and beowulf are a waste anyway, it defeats the purpose of the AR15. It's not lite anymore, you cant carry a lot of ammo because it weighs so much and is so big. A 30rd mag only holds 10 rounds, a MWG 90rd drum only holds 30 rounds.
They are an overpriced piece of shit if you ask me. Like I said, buy a shotgun.[/quote](Quote from the SHOTGUNNING KNOW-IT-ALL) Dude, STFU, My Beowulf upper is very packable. Short length makes it handy for packing through the South Texas Brush and canyons. As for the Comment of Not being able to carry much ammo because it is so big and heavy. I seriously doubt a round of Beowulf or Socom weighs out very differently Than Your ALMIGHTY Shotgun Slug. "A 30 round mag only holds 10 rounds" and you are comparing this to the capacity of which shotgun? Your highly accurized Slug Shooting Street Sweeper? |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/13/2003 9:37:20 AM EDT
[#48]
Thanks for all the responses guys. Didn’t mean for it to get heavy handed in here though. If I was going to do the one gun battery type of thing it would most defiantly be an M14 (M1A), but fortunately, I’m able to have a few other weapons. I already have a few shotguns, they’re cool they just don’t really turn my crank. I also have a few arfs and would like to try something different (458 or 50). I really starting to like the idea of a 458 SOCOM in an SBR with mid length handguards from Armalite. Not sure yet what is possible as far as configuration with the round but something like what I had in the pic would be just right (I think?). Anyway, thanks again for all the input.
Best regards, J [img]http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/1103/Monster11/arf/m15a2SBR.02_Thumper.gif[/img] [img]http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/1003/ripper11/avatar/xmas.jpg[/img] |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2003 6:00:00 PM EDT
[#49]
I guess there wasn't much to the counter-argument regarding shotguns being a better solution.....
Hmm.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2003 6:24:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: I really starting to like the idea of a 458 SOCOM in an SBR with mid length handguards from Armalite. Not sure yet what is possible as far as configuration with the round but something like what I had in the pic would be just right (I think?). [url]http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/1103/Monster11/arf/m15a2SBR.02_Thumper.gif[/url] The rifle in your picture appears to be a "Dissipator" style upper using an A2 upper receiver. These typically employ the standard 16" barrel, the purpose is to have the shorter barrel with the longer sight radius of the 20" version. This we can build. On the SBR - we can go as short as 10.5" without any trouble, and possibly as short as 7.5". Just let us know what you want, and we'll tell you what it would take. Marty ter Weeme "President", Teppo Jutsu LLC Home of the .458 SOCOM |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
