Remember, I'm the messenger. I have a cousin in Iraq as we speak. This war is like no other in the fact that the GI's have email access. I just received a few emails from him and we were conversing about the M16 in Iraq. I told him the mixed reports we have all read and he reports from the field and I quote "The M16 is a useless POS!" Again, I am the messenger so don't shoot. He tells me the weapon must be cleaned several times a day to keep it in somewhat operable order and magazines cannot be loaded full ever. He has claimed that many GI's have dumped them for AK's, which for all you AK glorifiers he says they aren't much better. He told me the only really decent AK's over there are the Soviet models. I know we have heard that the M16 is going to be phased out for the M4 and then that godawful SL8. What he tells me he has heard through the grapvine which is all the buzz in Iraq is that they are taling of....yes I tell no lie bringing back the M14 as a standard issue Army weapon. Again, grapevine is the operative word. I will spare you all of some of the other details he has shared, those of you who have seen action know what I mean. So,
Bad reviews of AR's from Vietnam
Bad reviews from Iraq
Seems like it's time guys. I am a .308 man. Although I own a few AR's, I view them as fun rifles for the range but I will tell you if they are not kept perfect, they will jam from time to time. My FALS when filthy never ever jam. Again, I am an AR fan too just reporting the news.

Just curious but what is your cousin’s job and where in Iraq is he?  

I know this subject comes up several times a week but these problems are not new and not unique to Iraq.  The M-16’s needed to be cleaned several times a day in Vietnam and  they only loaded 18 rounds in the 20 round mags back then too (ref: “Blood on the Risers - John Leppleman).    Why are we acting surprised when we heard the same complaints 30 some years later?  

I’m sure our troops heard rumors that the M-16 was going to be replaced in 1969!

here we go again.




[BS2]

652nd Engineers and I can't remember the name of the town. Wherever that massive bombing was the other day at the Iraqi police station, he was across the street guarding some sort of gates. The stuff he has told me, man you don't even want to know. But do not think he is in a Jessica Lynch situation. He is a heavy equiptment guy but is often sent on missions outside his unit. He has seen quite a bit of action there, he was in the original combat. I agree, the complaints abound the problem is too many people are way to quick to defend this rifle. I have shot them for twenty plus years, all makes and models, they all jam. Again, they are fun at the range but I would never carry it in the field if I had a choice.

Gee, the Israeli Army must be full of idiots, since they have been succesfully using the M-16 family of weapons for years in the desert. They have even switched to M-16 in favor of the Galil, which is an AK knock-off. Dopes, when will they learn to fight.

well, he's not totally full of shit. troops in both iraq and afghanistan (as well as somalia) have complained about the range and power of the 5.56 as well as the relative sensitivity of the m-16 system. the military has accepted those complaints to the degree they're talking about supplementing the standard m-16a2/m-4 with m-14's and specially modified m-16a2 rifles. and they're now actually looking at a whole new rifle system for the 21st century...well, several new systems from kinetic rounds to caseless rounds to the mind boggles. one thing they won't be doing though is adopting the oicw. that concept has been shelved indefinitely.

Your cousin sounds like a total idiot man, no offense, I'm just the messenger.

M16 a POS and the AK not much better. Sounds like we have a bad whining operator.


Where are the complaints from the high speed guys?

We all know why the problems arose in Vietnam. It was a simple fix and has be rehashed a number of times here.

The only bad reviews I'm hearing from Iraq where from the 507th.

If you listened to the interview with Jessica I learned some interesting tidbits.
Only a couple M16s jammed. Everyone else was shooting. Jessica's rifle didn't jam due to FTE,FTF,bad mags etc. She tried to chamber a round and it jammed up. Sounds to me like, in her excitment, she didn't pulled the charging handle back all the way.

I have several ARs that have not jammed (I'm not the only one). My M16s in the military never jammed, and were even reliable in very dirty conditions firing blanks. Other people in my units did have problems, and guess who they were. Right, the numb nuts that couldn't pass PT, or qualify, seems like they had problems with everything.

I have an M1A, it hasn't jammed either and I love it, but if I had to choose I'd grab the AR for many previously rehashed reasons.

Patriot I have heard the same. From some fellas in Iraq. 2 brothers of my IT girl just got back and told me nearly the same as what your story is. They are Army I dont know who or what they do......but the story is the same.....

Oly is right...with the amount of money we give the Israelis they could afford any weapon system in the world but they still chose the M-16.  

No offense to your cousin because I’m proud of him and thankful he is doing what he’s doing but I’d rather hear from an Airborne guy or an infantry guy.

Also, don’t confuse my post as “defending” the M-16.  I simply pointed out that we’ve heard these complaints (and rumors) before,  30 plus year before!

If the M-16 are jamming and the Ak’s are jamming then I guess we’re even?



Yes I do because I can probably find the same thing written about Vietnam.

First of all, my cousin is defending all of us right now. If you think because he is an engineer and sees no action you are a fool. So you know as my cousin was at his post the other day his job was to stand there and hold garbage bags full of Iraqi body parts until further orders. So to the guy with the BS flag and the one calling my cousin and idiot you can go fuck yourselves, yeah that's right fuck yourselves and I don't care if I get kicked off this board for it. I was simply making conversation and reporting what I heard and you assholes attack my family for defending you and your country? Fuck you. Secondly, what in God's name would make you feel better if you heard this from an infantry guy and not an engineer? Sorry I shared, go ahead and sit there on your fat asses defending the rifles you hold in your living room and shoot at a bench at the range. When you assholes get the letters home from your family talking about being showered in body parts, you can give me your opinion. I was simply reporting the news but the idea of any of you attacking my cousin or calling him an idiot is beyond out of line. My Cousin was in Korea, the Balkans and now Iraq all to defend the right for you assholes to keep your AR's. Sorry I said a word. My family has fought and died in every war this country has ever been in except the revolution. When you have a red star hanging in your window, you can cast judgements. You guys are super assholes.

And yes, since the Israeli's can't seem to keep third world idiots from blowing up pizza parlors and are hands down to blame for just about every problem in the Middle East, I would classify them as didiots. You people have ruined my day. Thank you.

Rumors pesist beyond reason sometimes. I was in weapons class, and on top of telling us that canadian armorers invented the shell deflector and forward assist (patriotic I am but not to the point of ignoring facts) one master corporal also spoke of the 40 year old myth that the bullets "tumble" as they come out of the barrel. I was a recruit at the time, and bit my toungue to the point of bleeding trying not to ask him to explain how they still fly straight while they're doing all that tumbling. A lot of guys will have a problem and complain, or just want to beef about an issue piece or re-hash old dogmas from the vietnam-era. It's a mechanical object, it has rules on how to operate it, and like anything mechanical, eventually it will fail. Any failures I've seen were either magazine related or operater related. Through salt water, sand, mud, grit ect. I never had any failures, and I never cleaned mine twice a day or had to baby it any more than my FN-FAL or even a bolt rifle. Fill up an  M-14 with mud, I bet you'll have to manhandle the thing to get it to work. M-14s also have a lot of open places in the reciever for grit to get into as well, more so than the M-16. I've talked to british SAS members who could have any weapon they want but swear by the ARs, IDF members etc,they all swear by it. As far as stopping power, if you get a solid hit in the head/chest you'll have the targets attention.

______________________________________________

Even my wife has an AR [X]

Well don’t go away mad. [;)]

Please note that I said I was proud and thankful for what you cousin is doing.  However, the reason I want to hear from an Airborne or infantry guy (or one of the High-Speed guys like someone said) is because their PRIMARY job is to shoot their weapon.  I’m well aware of the dangers they all face being in Iraq and my statement was not meant to take anything away from him.  You have to admit that there are units in Iraq seeing a lot more stuff than other units and more than likely, statistically, those will be Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, etc.  Typically us fat asses (I only weight 138lbs but…) would tend to believe one of those guys over an Engineer.

I swear, sometimes it seems like if someone has a gripe about the AR-15/M-16, they're labelled a troll or an asshole.  As if the platform is the end all, be all weapons system.  It isn't.  And I'd sooner trust the opinion of someone who's actually using one in rough climates.

Look you, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean that you can start with the insulting comments. My comment was meant to be light-hearted, but stating a fact about M-16 weapon usage under what US forces would consider extreme circumstances.

Yeah Israel is full of idiots, they allow Palistneans to live in Israel, and commute there to work. Unfortunatley a few of those workers have other jobs in mind.

FYI I have held M16 rifles, the ones my Uncle Sam gave me, in the US, Europe, and Central America, so I feel that I have a certain amount of right to comment on those rifles.

"First of all, my cousin is defending all of us right now."
[ROFL2][LOLabove][ROFL2]
[BS][BS2][BS]

The problem is that we've heard this all before, and it usually from AR bashers.

Don't get emotional with us. We all respect what the soldiers are doing. Some of us have done it ourselves.

People say there was huge problems with M16s in vietnam. It has been determined that the original powder was switched to a dirter powder which requires more maintainence. Problem solved.

Huge complaints in somalia. Give me a break. If you read the book Black Hawk Down. There where actually very few complaints and it was about using the m855 ammo in 11.5 inch barrels at extended ranges (m855 ammo clearly has problems, I won't argue that).

Huge compliants in Afghanistan. Wrong. The complaints again were about using the M4 and m855 ammo at extended ranges.

Now here come the complaints from Iraq. I've actually read reports from the USMC that said they were very happy with the M16. Sure we probably still have problems with the m855 ammo, that hasn't changed. Where are these complaints coming from. We'll need more evidence than this we've heard it all before.

[size=2]What did you expect us to do when you came to a group of people passionate about AR15s? Did you think we would bow at your feet, cast away our ARs, and picked up an M14/FAL reborn with the salvation that the AR sucks and the .308 is our SAVIOR [rolleyes][/size=2]

You set yourself up man, don't try to make us feel bad with your body part bags.

Paging Dr.Freefall......

Laughing at that?  Wow, what an utter asshole.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

I am not Army Infantry, Ranger or Airborne but I ASSURE you there is nothing any of those guys know about the M16 that my cousin or myself do not know. I have been shooting them for over 20 years, has you average Infantry soldier? Probably not. It's just so pathetic how people are so fast to rally around this rifle. I like the AR but if you have half a brain and understand any simple law of physics and firearm design, you would be a fool to not acknowledge the gas system design is flawed and flawed big time. I am ducking out of this thread, sorry I brought it up. Before I go I would like to point out that I have bulit race car engines, houses, machines, name it and out of all the guys I know I have never known a group of guys like gun guys. Gun guys act like the semi auto rifle is this magical piece of equiptment only a few chosed genuises know how to operate or understand, that is beyond laughable and it get's old. The fact is perhaps the only thing simpler then figuring out the AR system is maybe fixing a bicycle. Go ahead and enjoy your AR's I do but never ever call my family members in the military defending you an idiot. That sickens me, got any rocks handy to throw when they get home? Or some spit? Maybe some baby killer signs? Have a nice holiday and try if you can, remember why you have it.

"but if you have half a brain and understand any simple law of physics and firearm design, you would be a fool to not acknowledge the gas system design is flawed and flawed big time."

Please enlighten us as to what your 'half a brain' has managed to come up with concerning the simple law of physics as it pertains to firearm design. Thanks!

You are sickening

Utterly pathetic the measures you people will take to defend your rifle. My cousin is a soldier in our armed forces and you people called him an idiot and attacked me for sending news from the war. You know, did you ever think with all the negative feedback about this rifle they may be something to it? Did you ever hear where there is smoke there is fire? A little puntang and you guys will care a little less about your AR's. I am outta here, gonna go spend some time with people who respect our soldiers. Sickening

Whew, you have some imagination.  I've already stated my opinion twice so I won't do it again but I will take issue with your bicycle comment!  Did you know that they now have over 6 inches of travel, front and rear hydraulic disc brakes and 30 speeds?

The fucking gun - the M-16 - was designed to be fired with  tubular (IMR) grain powder.  The fucking ARMY switched the powder to Ball.

It's a minor modern day miracle that the M-16 works as well as it does.

To further fuck things up, our military, that should know better, continues to shorten the barrel insuring that adequate knock down power and penetration cannot be achieved.

I expect that some asshole is gonna come up with a new M-16 variant with a barrel that's about as long as my dick.  (And that would be about three inches.)

Gee, my first three "fuck" post.

5sub

You think physics play no part in the operation of a gas operated semi automatic rifle? Seriously, this is mind numbing. You know what, this is why we lose second amendment battles, because the vast majority of gun owners are un educated morons and cannot compete with educated intelectuals. I'm done. Wallow in your ignorance and disrespect for this country.

Dude, ONE MORE TIME...we've been hearing this negative feedback for 30 years...we know it has it's short comings.

BTW, I love my AK-47 and AK-74 too.  Does that count for anything? [;)]

Did you even read my post?  No my friend you are the sick one, by accusing any of us that we are not patriotic or we do not support our troops because we criticize one bad report about the M16.

[size=4]Remember we've hear this before. Do some research. There are a lot fewer complaints than you are eluding to. Mostly ammo related.[/size=4]

Tell your cousin to clean his weapon, watch his back, and stop complaining. Nobody hears the 3 other wheels that are well greased and running smoothly. It's the squeaky wheel that gets all the attention!

Lets be truthful no wepon that I know of will be trouble free in a sandy invirement like the one he is talking about. Some may be better than others but since he is protecting me and my family I thank God he is holding the the best wepon in that theater of war. This is my choice of wepon too.

Actually roughly 40 years.

No way do I believe the military will throw out the M-16 and bring back the M-14.  Small quantities yes, but not wholesale replacement.

5sub

[size=6]IBTL[/size=6][:D]

HUNTER.

I stand corrected.  I've only been counting the 36/37 years that I know about based on the books that I've read and my Dad's & two uncle’s accounts.  I guess it started to be used in ‘65?

M4,
I've tried harder than the average to find out when the first M-16's (I believe the designation was still AR-15 when the first were used.) were used in Vietnam but have not been able to come up with a definitive answer.  My 'BELIEF' is that the AR-15 was used by Army Special Forces 'advisors' as early as 1962-63.  I've never been able to find anything in print to substantiate that belief.  The answer is there but one would have to have access to those early after-action reports.

5sub

5subslr5 - Thanks!  If you find out let me know and I may do some more research of my own to try and find the answer.  Almost all of the Vietnam books I've read have covered 1967 and up.  

As an Ex-gunsmith, according to some on this board I must not have "HALF A BRAIN" because I cannot see the major design flaw in the direct gas impingment system. There is no such thing as a free lunch in mechanics, I could turn around and say, "Anyone with half a brain has to see the inherent design flaws with the enclosed gas piston system of the AK47/74 series." Everything has shortcomings. The m-14s? Troops said it was too long and heavy for jungle and close combat, and excessively powerful, there's one. Aks shortcomings? inaccurate, horrible human engineering, crappy safety placement. EVERYTHING has a shortcoming in comparison to something else, nothing is the be all end all. Some however, are better than others. In a sandy, super fine-gritty environment, (trust me, that crap gets in EVERYTHING!) if enough gets in a weapon ANY WEAPON! It'll cause malfunctions and accelerated wear on the bearing surfaces. Now, Aks aren't much better than the 16 for reliability? I'd rather take care of my 16, and actually be able to hit out to 450M with it and be comfortable with it than tote around an Ak and be able to neglect it just a tad more, and then spray and pray when the time comes. I carry a 16,and my life depends on it. I'm not a mindless follower, it had to earn my respect, and I have enough faith in it for what we've been through together, well, too much to blindly condemn it as a flawed rifle. And I'm not speaking of a rifle that comes out of the safe and goes to the range as some have put it. Shot it for 20 years? probably longer in timespan than most troops, I admit. Can you say you put those rifle through what I and other troops have? Ever crawl through a muddy sandy canal for fun, covering the rifle in shite and then have it go BANG every time AND hit what you aim at? Ever been in the arctic, north of 60 with one, where your piss freezes before it even hits the ground? Guess what, rifle goes BANG and hits what it aims at. As I said, I never cleaned the rifle twice or even every day in order to make it work, it just did. I've even seen them brown on the steel parts (bolt included) from sea spray, guess what, BANG! If I had a choice I'd like a heavier caliber, like an AR10 in .243 or something of that like, but still an AR. I would not have an Ak for combat unless it was all I could get. I'd have to say that I think I've seen them put through a lot of different hostile environments and still function just as well or better than and other auto rifle design.
_______________________________________________

Legalize freedom!

[url]www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html[/url]

Check here.  It's the "incredible article" from the thread here.  It is pretty incredible, and I think you'll be able to find what you're looking for if you scroll down to the early 1960's.

Well I work with a guy his son is in iraq I heard all to well about the M16 is a POS.

I was in the army(infantry) I had two problems with it, the mags we were issued were
beat to death, the parts were worn. I also heard the Hummve(howeveryouspellit) had problem's with sand, had to be updated, Ive heard the Bradly fighting vehicle has problems with sand, something with the road wheels and suspention. sand will eat anything mechanical.
helicopters even have problems, all it is, they want to field the xm8/xm29. aka: OICW so bad so they hammer the m16/m4.

M4arc,

I watched a special on the History channel called Military Firepower.  It gives the history on the AK47, AR15, M16 and Uzi and some others.  Excellent show.  The Ar15 was designed by a guy named Eugene Stoner, he designed the AR15 (full auto)with Armalight in 1958 or so.  Around 1964 or so they made changes to the Ar15 and renamed it the M16.  It does talk about the problems with the ball powder.  Look for the program on in your cable guide or the website for local listing.  Its a interesting show.  I learned alot from it.

eswanson - Thank you SIR!  That is an awesome article!  And to think I rented the Two Towers extended version for night, guess I'll have to wait and watch it tomorrow now [;)]

Edited to add: Thanks FireBlade!  I think I say that show...History of the Gun/M-16 or something like that?  However, I guess I didn't pay attention to the dates at time. [spank]

WOW, a little tension here...
My .02 is when I was in (1984/87) we did a NTC at Ft Irwin. I was a Bradley Driver at the time.
We were all issued a "combat load" of blanks and we shot them almost constantly. Even tho I was never in combat, that beat up POS M16A1 fired blanks almost every day and I think I cleaned it every couple of days, NOT because it jammed, but because the squad leader made us.

As for the Bradley and sand... mmm I must have lost the rubber on my #6 left/right road-wheel 5 times in those 3 weeks. The sand even killed a brand new pair a jungle boots.

I also would like to hear a good report from the "hi-speed boys" on the performance.

Your cousin said that AK-47's and clones are only slightly better in reliability than an M16, this tells me that he probably has little idea of what he's talking about. Besides, the gas system isn't flawed, it was designed for accuracy, not reliability. The gas system makes the gun very accurate, which is what it's intended to do, so I don't see how it's flawed. I do think that arming more men with M14's would be a good idea, but troops are complaining loudly about how the M16 is hard to maneuver in Humvees and such, so I don't think that the longer M14 would help. I thank your cousin for defending our country, but I just can't trust the man's opinion when he feels that an AK isn't much more reliable than an M16. By the way, learn to spell intellectual correctly you f--king hypocrite.

Thanks eswanson !  

I've gone back and pulled a couple of items:

[b]1962[/b]


February: Project AGILE begins operational testing of the AR-15 in Vietnam.

[Summer of '62] The US Navy orders a small quantity of AR-15 rifles for use by its SEAL teams.

----------------------------------------------

The reference document [b]A 5.56X45mm "TimeLine"[/b] gives a date of 2/62 for the beginning of operational testing for Project AGILE in Vietnam.

The Brothers MacDonald were pretty fair arms merchants at that time.  I'm betting the brothers had a few AR-15's in Vietnam with Army Special Forces advisors in 1961.  That's a year earlier than I had guessed.

5sub

Show and tell at school!!  [LOL] If only that could still be true...

I wonder if many of those rifles that cause problems are not just worn-out old rifles. Same with the magazines. I mean, several of the top special forces teams in the world have evaluated just about any rifle in the world, and have chosen the M4. There has to be a reason for it. If the design itself sucks so badly they wouldn't have chosen it.

The design has been in use for 40 years for a reason. And keep in mind that in that environment pretty much ALL the equipment has failed at one time or another.

Dude, I'm the original "fucking asshole" who threw the BS flag up initially. Careful who you think you're talking to, I'm quite sure my family stacks up with your 'cuz and his bunch of fighting wrench turners when it comes to serving in the military. You aren't the only one here who gets to look out upon a star on a flag...

God bless your cousin. Easy on the insults.

John

I am with Rabid.  These rifles won my deepest respect while in the Army.

Keep in mind that Grunts reserve the right to complain about everything- boots, food, transportation, it doesn't matter.

You should go take this up with our people just back from there, like FREEFALLE6 and STLRN.

The M16's jammed in Iraq.
The AKs jammed in Iraq.
The M249's Jammed in Iraq

The fucking [i]M2 Brownings[/i] jammed in Iraq.

ALL GUNS JAM IN IRAQ IF THEY ARE NOT CLEANED MULTIPLE TIMES A DAY. And even then if you are not careful to wipe off the CLP when you are done. IT IS A DESERT. If the Army wants to do something useful about it the best bet would probably be to issue big disposable plastic bags to wrap your weapon in after cleaning- like we provided for troops in the Normandy landings in WWII.

The M16/M4 is not a POS!  The super fine sand prevelent in Iraq causes problems with all weapons particularly those with fine engineering tolerances.  Ak's may last a little longer but they will lock up solid too.  The sand has the consistancy of fine talcum powder and gets everywhere, once it combines with lubricant and powder residue the whole thing becomes a sticky mess.  The only way to deal with it is to clean the weapon frequently and if your life depends on that weapon, that's what you should be doing!  Just my 02's worth, but reflects what I have seen.  

By the way, the reason the Israeli's use the M16 is because they get them free.  

IDF SF teams were using them when they had to buy them. Their Colt Model 653 and 633 carbines were never purchased by the US, so they had to get them from Colt direct and pay cash. And they used them when the rest of the army was using Galils and Gilions that would have cost much less to acquire.

The rest of the army just conformed to what the SF teams had already proven.