OK, I have a AR15 M4-copy I can use for HD. I'm talking really close quarters here. I heard some ammo do not overpenetrate and can be stopped by sheetrock.

So, what do I load it with? Obviously, not green tip. How about M855 IMI FMJ? Or should I use soft point?

Thanks.

Check out [url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/[/url] they have a lot of good information.

Now, personally i would NOT use the M855 but would go w/ the M193 (a bit lighter 55gr).

Just my $.02

I would use a 55-64 grain SP or HP. I prefer Winchester 64gr. Power Point Plus.

Q3131A
XM193
Win 64Gn Power Point
Horn 60Gn JSP
Horn 75Gn OTM

Are all acceptable choices.  My 18" 1:9 HD carbine is loaded with IMI M193.

Game loads are not suitable for AP use in a shotgun. Even #2 pellets are considerably smaller than a BB and do not produce sufficient penertration to be a reliable stopper. Buckshot and slugs are the only realistic choices for defensive shotgun ammo, both of which have been proven more likely to over-penetrate common building materials than the 5.56mm HP/SP. If you must use a 12 gauge for home defense, #1 buck seems to be the best choice.

There is a great book that addresses combat fighting skills necessary to work in a variety of environments and the author goes into exactly why a carbine is a better home defense weapon than a shotgun or pistol. I was advised to get this book while attending a tactical training course.

[url=http://www.tridentconcepts.net/Book%20Information.htm]'Combative Fundamentals, An Unconventional Approach'[/url] by Jeff Gonzales

His arguments are:
Reliable incapacitation, superior to handgun performance,
Superior performance against soft body armor vs. shoguns & pistols,
Reduced penetration compared to shotgun & handgun projectiles,
- Due to yawing & fragmentation
- Researching ballistic gelatin test results can back this up,
Magazine capacity
- AR15 / Mini14, 20-30 rounds
- Most shotguns hold 5-9 rounds
- Most handguns hold 7-15 rounds
- If you live in a state like California where ‘new purchasers’ are ‘ballisticly castrated’ to 10rnd mags for rifles & pistols there is still no disadvantage to the carbine.

There may have been more but this was from memory.

I know personally I used to keep my Benelli M1 Super 90 loaded with #4 Buckshot for home defense, but after doing my own personal tests with many 1/2 gallon milk cartons full of water and common building materials I switched over to my M4gery.

About the book, I know I’m new here but overall I think it is a great book about carbine & pistol use and I highly recommend everyone at AR15.com get this book for their tactical/defensive library. It is nothing revolutionary but it is evolutionary, very thorough and comprehensive; it explains everything in great detail.

[list]
[*]He addresses the combative fundamentals (hence the name) in a logically and organized fashion. It is very strait forward and complete.
[*]He covers a wide variety of pistol & carbine techniques (and how they work together) in great detail to shoot quicker, more accurately and most importantly more consistently.
[*]He stresses mastering the fundamentals and training to execute them decisively.  
[*]He encourages you to identify flaws in your present training and techniques, develop training goals, and strategies to achieve them.  
[*]He puts a lot of emphasis on developing and refining your combative mindset.  
[*]He is a firm believer in building confidence in a non-diagnostic approach to training and combat.  
[*]He also covers an array of stress management techniques.
[*]The end result being that he wants the reader to become familiar with their personal/family protection plans, and that we know how to develop/evolve them.
[/list]

As a side note, I don't know if Mr. Gonzales does this for everybody, but before he sent me my book he autographed it with a personal message; pretty cool.

For ordering info if your interested go to [URL=http://www.tridentconcepts.com/]Trident Concepts Research Group[/URL]

Hopefully nobody ever needs to apply this info in a home defense situation…
Stay safe,

Although I have Glock beside the bed, I have a shotgun about another foot away.  I load to shoot in the following order #1 buck, 0 buck, 00 buck.  I figure that if the intruder is still standing he's getting further away !

The job of my two Chows (Leo and Sister) is to give me ample warning so I can get to the shotgun.

5sub

<--------

I am familiar with one local case where a 8 year old girl was shot with a 12 Gauge birdshot load at a distance of about 3 feet. She lost an arm and a kidney, but never lost consiousness.  Birdshot (anything smaller than #4 Buck) is not a reliable stopper. It makes ugly shallow wounds that do not incapacitate.

There is no arguing with that, and I agree...  Although I don’t think I be in a better situation using my Benelli M1S90 or my Beretta M9/92FS.

If a person lives in an area like California, Chicago, or other similar liberal place; that person had best take into account local & state weapons laws, the political views of the local DA & state AG, and the politics of John Q. Public who will be sitting on the jury…

This is where the individual has to sit down and decided for himself based on what is best for his/her particular situation taking into account all factors, many of which are political, social, and economic.

A Mini-14 could be a good choice for those places. While I’m no great fan of the Mini-14 I do have one. I’ve had it for 15 years and mine is a very reliable weapon, although I’ve heard otherwise from others than also own them but was never my experience. Although I have old-school Ruger 20 & 30 round magazines that are worth a fortune now…

Stay safe,

There are four approaches for self-defense ammo in 5.56mm:

1) light (<55gr) varmint hollowpoints;
2) USGI issue FMJ, 55gr "M193" or 62gr "M855";
3) a heavy open tip match round like the 75 and 77gr;
4) a 55gr+ SP round which behaves more like a traditional hunting bullet.

#1 is dangerous-- limited penetration is secondary to incapacitation, and varmint rounds are frighteningly weak in the second regard.
#2 is worrisome.  I'd recommend name-brand (Win Q3131A, IMI, etc) "commercial" ammo rather than use surplus stuff.  I would also avoid the M855 because of it's reduced wounding capability.
#3 is not cheap, but appears to be the best idea so far in purely terminal performance.  I've had hard times convincing people to test and carry $.50 JHP's in $900 handguns. [:shrug:]
#4- most of the SP rounds may exit a person, and do less damage along the way than a proper handgun JHP.

DocKGR over at TacticalForums.com seems to recommend approach numbers #3 normally, #4 for use against zombies in `65 Caddilacs, to avoid #2 if possible, and never go with #1.  

I am more in Quarterbore's camp.  A $250 870 that has never let me down, but if I'm touching off a 12-gauge indoors, it's gonna be 00 buck, and tactical slugs on the side saddle.  It's waiting for a SF forend light.  

As has been hashed out here many, many times, there are few rounds that will penetrate LESS than .223 indoors.  I do not know about #4 buck, but #000 and #00 are too much penetration for indoor use.

From what I've read it has clearly been established that the 75-77 gr OTMs are the best performers for self defense and combat situations. By providing reliable fragmentation at increased ranges/lower velocities.

But how do thes compare at CQB distances where reliable fragmentation at long range is not required?

Has it been shown that the heavy OTMs and FMJ penetrate more? From my limited resources the answer is yes, but maybe not more than a pistol or shotgun.

Wouldn't a 60-69 gr OTM be a better choice for indoors and CQB because fragmentation will be good at close range and risk of overpenetration will be reduced?

If you're using a shotgun, how about those Aquila mini-shells for really CQ?

Yep. I have a safe full of ARs. But a $298.00 Mini-14 is what I keep loaded in the closet. Cheap, easy to replace, none threatening wood & blue steel appearance. Sights are close to the line of the bore, so very close range snap shots are actually easir than with an AR.  M1 Carbine or 44Mag lever gun are good PC choises too.

Here is an interesting article I found doing a search on Google; it has probably been posted here before, if so sorry for the redundancy...

[url=http://www.olyarms.com/223cqb.html].223 for CQB[/url] by R.K. Taubert

I you wish to use a shotgun due to image issues, at least load up with buckshot. #1 seems to be the best stopper overall, and #4 would penetrate less in a home defense situation.

I don't worry what people will think around here about me using an AR for home defense. In KY, no one cares what you shoot a home invader with, as long as you kill the SOB. Besides, the local prosecuter gets his MAK-90 out and shoots with me occasionally. [:D]

Ridge:  perhaps I should clarify my original post.  I use "heavy" to distinguish the 60gr+ match HP rounds from the <60gr varmint HP rounds.

From what I understand about the 5.56mm, I assume that the difference in effect at, say, 100m are amplified at 0 m.

Omega_556: I have heard that the Olyarms copy of that article is an edited/condensed version of the print original, and some information is lost.  Just FYI.

I don't believe in under-arming myself to save politcal face.  I do believe that the shotgun is the best weapon -for me- in this situation, mainly because of safety.  The weapon is in condition 3 until ready to fire, and is quickly returned to condition 3 if the situation calms down.

Well, how about some frangible .223 loads?  (Along the lines of Glaser, Magsafe, and Corbon's BeeSafe if any of them make it)

I would probably take a different approach and use non lethal rubber bullets or pads in a shotgun. For one alot of people in this state have gone to prison defending their property with lethal force. Even if they are IN your home and you shoot them to kill you could be charged, A non lethal will knock them for a loop and still incapacitate them enough for htep olice to arrive. I was once told by a officer on the force. That If I shoot someone outside on my property stealing a vehicle or whatever to drag them in the house. In the house will fly better than outside. Dont get me wrong I have ability to make THAT decision and follow through its just if there is another way I would try it.

Not a problem in Texas.  [:)]

I guess I have a few issues here,One a sound that a pump shotgun makes sounds like not much else, if I was moving through the dark and heard that I might think twice about moving forward at that point. Also if you were hurt so bad that you lost one of your arms and a kidney, I think you are out of the fight. Last point I have is that I have done some CQB in the dark, it is very hard, I don't know how many people here practice it on a daily basis. With an AR-15 based system you will have to hit center mass to put someone down were with the 12 gauge you only need to come close. I know alot of people think that you can just wake up in the middle of the night in the dark and be able to shoot someone and score a direct hit in the process. Wow I wish war was that easy.

Get married... best of both worlds.  My wife has a shotgun on her side and I have an Evil Black Rifle on my side.  I also have a 1911 very nearby.  Why so much? She is sometimes home alone. I am sometimes home alone. This way either one of us has easy access.  And we don't have to worry about which one is better .223 or buckshot.

We also have one of the loudest, most skittish dachshunds you've ever seen.  He seems to know my car and garage door sounds, but Heaven help someone who opens the front door or sliding door.  Sometimes the cat making noise gets him going.

We tried an experiment wih him one night.  I caled my wife as I was coming home around midnight and she unlocked the back door.  I tried sneaking into the house while she lay in bed, expecting me. The dog didn't recognize me at all.  He went crazy, and I was trying to be as quiet as possible.  I even parked my car down the street. she said he heard me on the deck before I even tried to get in.

And if any prosecutors are worried about why I didn't use a shotgun...  uhh ... it jammed... or uhh... maybe it will be unloaded into the wall before anyone shows up or I forgot the safety.  You gotta admit AR safeties ar pretty intuitive.  Shotgun safeties make you think, left or right?

[b]Quoted:[/b] in bold
[b]I guess I have a few issues here,[/b]

Me, too…

[b]One a sound that a pump shotgun makes sounds like not much else, if I was moving through the dark and heard that I might think twice about moving forward at that point.[/b]

Are you actually going to investigate a bump in the night without a round in the chamber, not me??? Your shotgun only holds 8 or 10 rounds, are you going to go into a potential fight and sacrifice 10% to 12.5% of your ammo for intimidation purposes?

For the sake of argument; do you think that if my AR bolt was locked back and, upon confrontation, my dropping the bolt to load the chamber will be any less intimidating to you???

Either way it is a moot point for me personally, I will be ‘Condition 1’ ready to fight for blood, not play intimidation games that reveal my location and could potentially get me killed whether I’m using my AR or my Benelli.

[b]Also if you were hurt so bad that you lost one of your arms and a kidney, I think you are out of the fight.[/b]

You can think that, and you could be wrong, are you willing to risk your life and the lives of your family to see if you are correct. I want to neutralize the threat as quickly as possible in the safest possible manner...

[b]Last point I have is that I have done some CQB in the dark, it is very hard, I don't know how many people here practice it on a daily basis. With an AR-15 based system you will have to hit center mass to put someone down were with the 12 gauge you only need to come close.[/b]

This might be acceptable for military operations, but not for home defense…  If you can’t see your target clearly enough to score COM hits, you can’t see your target clearly enough to reliably ID it either…

Also in a home defense situation it will be your child, wife, relative, or neighbor behind that wall and if you can’t score a direct hit don’t pull the trigger; only coming close is not good enough.

Also if you only come close with your 12 gauge you increase the risk of collateral damage over a 5.56 as buckshot will penetrate much farther than a 5.56 in common home building materials.

[b]I know alot of people think that you can just wake up in the middle of the night in the dark and be able to shoot someone and score a direct hit in the process. Wow I wish war was that easy.[/b]

Well we are not talking about war but home defense.  Either way your statement is equally true for a shotgun and a carbine, or even a pistol, and here I agree with you.

This is why regular quality training is so important,
It is essential to:
[list] [*]Develop and refine your combative mindset.
[*]Master the fundamentals and train to execute them decisively.
[*]Identify flaws in your present training and techniques; develop training goals, and strategies to achieve them.
[*]Build confidence in a non-diagnostic approach to training and combat.
[*]Learn many different types of stress management techniques.
[*]Create an effective personal/family protection plan, and know how to develop/evolve them.[/list]

Edited because I can't spell...

[b]Quoted:[/b] in bold
[b]All the more reasons I will stick with my hi-brass #4 shot...[/b]

What are all the more reasons? You didn’t quote anything so I don’t know what you are referring to.

[b]I don't need a 30-round mag to do the job in my own house as I don't sell drugs and my neighbors aren't crack dealers either![/b]

[rolleyes] Spoken like a true antigun liberal…  

Yep, that's why many people here (including myself) want to use an AR for home defense, because we sell drugs and have crack dealers for neighbors...

Everyone who is law-abiding can just use a pump action shotgun or revolver for home defense. Who would need those evil looking black guns with high capacity magazines except military/police, criminals, and drug dealers…

[puke]

We can debate most of these issues all day, and I think you need to find what works best for you.

As far as muzzle awareness I would not fire any weapon inside my house if I did not know where my family members are located. I would feel bad if I was to hit one of my pets by accident. If someone wants my TV or watch they can have it. I would not chance that risk.

HD is for "PROTECTION" not fighting, many of these schools are taught be guys that go out and fight in CQB situations. I understand that some people have weapons training but most do not. So I understand that some people may know what a bolt releasing sounds like on an AR-15, but alot more understand what a pump shotgun sounds like, just from watching TV and movies.

As for if I was to shoot someone in my I would hold my position, maintain C&C while holding on the target and wait for the police to arrive.

I was reading this thread with some interest.  I didn't agree with you, but I respected your opinion & tenacity until that statement... [V]

I don't live in "an extremly poor environment" - I live in a low-crime, VERY rural area where the police (and ambulances, etc.) can take 30 minutes or longer just to get to you/find your home.  It is my sacred duty to protect my wife & child against all threats, and for me & me alone to decide what I have a "real need" for, thank you very much...


[b]EDITED TO ADD, AFTER SEEING THE POST BELOW:[/b]
No hard feelings, [b]Quarterbore[/b] - I halfway figured what you had written there wasn't what you had in mind to say, but you touched on a nerve.  I have family members (gun owners, but not "gun folks") who for the life of them can't understand why I have an AR, a shotgun, several handguns, extra mags, etc. in a wall-safe in the bedroom when my gun room is just down the hall.  I hope & pray I never have a personal example of "why" to relate to them...

...but it's staying there, just the same.

I am bailing out of this thread as I am making more and more mistakes in my posts... my point again isn't that a 223 isn't a reasonable choice my point is that a 12-gauge is a reasonable choice...

As for the 30-rd mags, my intended point was that five shots of 12-gauge is all I will need where I live and I don't personally need to have an AR with 30-rds loaded next to the bed at night.  What I posted, as quoted, is not what I meant to say as I agree people need to have the right to choose for themselves what they are comfortable having at their side...

If a riot was to occur or I did feal a threat, believe me I would load every mag I have but this thread is in relation to a HD weapon and I assume the context of something you keep at the ready in the night under normal conditions.

The only time in my life I had every mag I owned loaded was 11-Sept-2001 as I sat on the living room floor watching the trade towers burn.  On that day, I was prepared for war and it only took a couple minutes to get to that condition...  My wife came home and found me with the M-16 apart and cleaning her like I rarely do and stacks of loaded mags...

Believe me, I know about the right to choose and the right to be able to defend oneself, family, and country as needed...

I use Federal 55gr Nosler Tipped .223

I’m sorry you are bailing out, I didn’t mean to get personal, and if I did I apologize…

[b]Quoted:[/b] in bold
[b]As for the 30-rd mags, my intended point was that five shots of 12-gauge is all I will need where I live and I don't personally need to have an AR with 30-rds loaded next to the bed at night.[/b]

How do you know exactly what you will need, this is the attitude I don’t understand? Are all crimes in your area committed by a single perp?

It is a clearly documented that most violent crimes, including home invasion robberies, include multiple attackers.

It is also documented that home invasion robberies happen quite often in nice suburban & semi-rural neighborhoods.

With birdshot, IF it only takes you 2 hits to take a goblin out of the fight, and you have 3 goblins with weapons who are willing to use them, you are in a bad situation with your 5 round shotgun…

This is the situation that I am preparing for… If it takes me 5 rounds to end the fight, great, but what if it takes more; then what?  Now for the sake of reality, I agree, I probably don’t need 30 rounds; 15 should be enough and a 20rnd mag would work too.  But what is the disadvantage to my 30 round mag besides a few extra ounces of weight.

It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it; especially in a life or death situation…

[b]What I posted, as quoted, is not what I meant to say as I agree people need to have the right to choose for themselves what they are comfortable having at their side...[/b]

Well thank you for this point of clarification, here we agree 100%, I only wish out Gov’t believed this too.

[b]If a riot was to occur or I did feel a threat, believe me I would load every mag I have but this thread is in relation to a HD weapon and I assume the context of something you keep at the ready in the night under normal conditions.[/b]

Exactly, I am referring to something I always have in a state of readiness in my home next to my bed night after night for defensive use.  You also said “under normal conditions” in my home “normal conditions” do not include being violent home invasion robberies so I want to be prepared for the ‘abnormal conditions’ full on unknown contingencies.

Isn’t there a quote that no battle plan survives the first shot, I want to be able to adapt to any potential situation I could find myself in?

Also please don’t think for a second that I am not talking about home defense. If we were talking about a break down in society I.E. SHTF riot, natural disaster, terrorist attack, foreign invasion, etc… I won’t have my M4gery, my wife will because she is small and the M4gery/5.56 has negligible recoil and a lot of firepower in a small light weight package. I’ll have my FAL and my LBV with (8) 20 round mags.  Why, because it will turn 5.56 & 12 gauge cover into concealment, and it’s a much better anti material rifle for taking out vehicles & equipment.  Clearly this is a totally unacceptable alternative for home defense, the point of this thread.

[b]… 11-Sept-2001 … I was prepared for war and it only took a couple minutes to get to that condition...[/b]

Do you somehow have a way to get advanced warning as to when your home will be a target of violent crime or society will collapse, I believe in gut instinct but come on? A few minutes to load mags, what are you going to do in a life or death situation call a “time out” so you can load them? Hopefully you have a neighbor(s) like me and many others around here, who are ready now so if that riot does break out you’ll have time to load your mags (or link up your belts).

Good luck to you and I hope your shotgun with 5 rounds of #4 shot works for you; to each his own and I respect your opinion and decision I just don’t agree with it that’s all; nothing personal.

Great website by the way, you have a lot of nice toys and I really like the toolbox article.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the absolute worst…

Before you step on your dork makind stupid statements about CA law maybe you ought to look it up.  the CA law on using deadly force on intruders is very "liberal".  Not only can you use it, there is no requirement to retreat and there is a prima facie defense that deadly force against intruders is justifiable homicide and not prosecutable.  Called the Richardson Bill, it is about the only thing Richardson got through the legislature.

Look up Penal Code Section 195 (?).  Not at home so I can't post the quoted section easily.

As far as HD goes, my bedstand is a 45 and the 870 is close to hand.  The Black Rifle is locked in the safe.  The killer bassets are the first line of defense.

I prefer the 870 12 guage (6+1) 18 1/2 inch loaded with Federal #000 Tactical, Surefire light, and a sidesaddle with 6 more shells.  My wife will be backing me up with an M4, loaded with 30 rounds of Lake City 55gr FMJ, Aimpoint ML2 and Surefire M500A.  I am confident that the shotty will carry the fight, but I'm not stupid.  I purposefully specced the 870 to be exactly what the LEO's are allowed to use (including ammo) so my lawyer can say what a fine law abiding citizen I am when the time comes.    

[b]Quoted:[/b] in bold
[b]Before you step on your dork makind stupid statements about CA law maybe you ought to look it up.  the CA law on using deadly force on intruders is very "liberal".  Not only can you use it, there is no requirement to retreat and there is a prima facie defense that deadly force against intruders is justifiable homicide and not prosecutable.  Called the Richardson Bill, it is about the only thing Richardson got through the legislature.

Look up Penal Code Section 195 (?).  Not at home so I can't post the quoted section easily.[/b]

I can only assume you are referring to me as I’m the one who brought up California… Are comments about California a sore subject for you?

Regardless of what Penal Code Section 195(?) says, have you ever heard of civil litigation???

I believe murder is illegal, don’t know the exact penal code, but OJ got away with it in criminal court and still got creamed in civil court, do you remember that?

I never said anything about the law concerning use of deadly force did I, if so please quote me?

I said, “take into account local & state weapons laws, the political views of the local DA & state AG, and the politics of John Q. Public who will be sitting on the jury…”

[list]
[*] Everybody knows that Los Angles, San Francisco, etc… are very conservative right? They are pro-gun and support personal self defense so much they make CCW easy for its citizens and allow reciprocity too right…  Now about liberal on the jury; San Francisco & Los Angles and their outlying areas account for over 23.8 of the 35.1 million people in the state of California most of which know their local football and baseball teams but probably can’t even recite the second amendment and they will be the ones on the juries of the majority (67.8%) of Californians who must defend themselves.
[*] Lets talk about California weapons laws; how many AR’s were in Ca before the registration deadline, how many were registered, how many do you really think left the state? If you have an unregistered AR it’s a felony, I wouldn’t suggest using one of these for self-defense regardless of what Penal Code Section 195 (?) says…
[*] Lets talk about California weapons laws; if you cannot prove that you had your high-cap mags before the ban it’s a felony and again the burden of proof is on you…
[*] Lets talk about political views; 34 of the 53 State Reps are anti-gun and support the assault weapons ban…  Shoot somebody with a registered AR and see what happens!  According to what I was told by a Forest Service Ranger in California it is illegal to shoot a registered assault weapon on public BLM lands.
[*] The DA & AG can find all kinds of ways to screw with you if they decide to put you in the crosshairs…[/list]

I also said, “If you live in a state like California … ‘new purchasers’ are ‘ballisticly castrated’ to 10rnd mags for rifles & pistols…”

Assuming you’re not an LEO is this not true, if not please tell me how?

I stand by these statements 100%…

If you feel California is pro-gun and is pro-self-defense and that it is no more dangerous (civilly & criminally) to defend yourself with an assault weapon than a Mini14, pump action shotgun, or a revolver you are either ignorant or stupid; and that is what I am/was referring to…

I think you better wipe the footprints of your “dork”!!!

PS - I was born and raised in San Diego, I wasn’t bashing California just stating the obvious…