my m16 is down for heavy maintenance, depot level work.  you know, gas tube replacement, gas rings, and a few springs here and there.  yeah, i know, i should have all that stuff on hand for quick replacement, but find myself ordering them and awaiting their delivery.  i'm getting that vulnerable feeling....kind of like hanging out there on the edge without the necessary tools i've found myself accustomed to and knowing that they are there when and if needed.....maybe it has something to do with the fact that if the SHTF, i'd have to go for an alternate firearm....


ever been there?

If you have enough backup black rifles, you never feel vulnerable! [:D]

With four other ARs in the house, and six AKs.  not a chance[:D]

When the SHTF I'm grabbing my 9-round 12 gauge pump and my 45 pistol. As much as I LOVE my M16, I just don't see how it would be a better choice on survival mode, I would have to leave it behind.

[>Q]

Look over there...its a guy with a shotgun.

Should I let him get closer or drop him now? [:D]

I finally bought my emergency repair kit this year, but I do have three AR's right now so I am good. I will trade you an AR for your busted M-16!

?If SHTF ?  Full auto is fun to play with but if the SHTF single well placed single shots and ammo conservation is key.  

full auto smullotto....

dont forget it has semi capability as well...

full auto is for when you need it...not sooner

Very rarely will you actually need full auto fire as a civilian, even if the SHTF.. Full auto's only good for a few rounds anyway, unless of course youve somehow managed to get in enfilade fire from a defilade position, and if you'e got that, it hasnt really hit the fan for you . yet ;)

shot placement , hope it isnt dark my nef will get me killed, but its one more of my black rifles.

Well, if the SHTF I don't plan to be STANDING AROUND IN OPEN AREAS WAITING TO BE SNIPED AT!!!!
I also don't plan to be running around in any open fields. For the most part there will be a lot of hiding and sneaking around.
It will, however, take me a fraction of a second to blast the idiot trying to aim his rifle at me when he or I come around the corner or in/out the door.

The military is many people, if the SHTF you're very likely be by yourself, not with group of guys who have trained together as a unit.

Maybe you live in the open country, but where I am, there will be little time or opportunity for anyone to aim his rifle. I don't have to aim, just point in the general direction to take out 90% of what will be out there.

Hey, if you're waiting for the enemy at the top of a hill, I can understand it. But if you're scouting thru grocery store isles to find leftovers... A shotgun is the only way.

How long does it take you to aim a rifle?  In the grocery store I'll take my Ar over my 870 anyday.  Shotguns have there place but every able man needs a rifle.  I think there are a lot of you people out there with some miguided thoughts about this SHTF scenario.  I am afraid a lot of you people out there have weapons but no real training.  Get the training.  Your attitudes and opinions might change.

Ditto the last, my 870 would be one of my last choices for a SHTF scenario.  My first is the 20" Colt Hbar.  Will perform nicely up close or reach out.  Fast handling for grocery aisles and if not my trusty M1911 will launch .45acp slugs reliably all day long.  Hell I'd even want my old .270 bolt rifle before my shotgun.  The shotgun is a nice hunting tool but not first choice for SHTF.  Damned nasty up close but worthless at any range.  Contrary to the earlier statement you do need to aim with a shotgun.

I'm agreeing with Mr45auto from the previous post...

I'm happy to see you have your SHTF scenario all figured out and planned, good for you.
I am only a weapons enthusiast so I don't have the extensive training like some of you do, but I have had exposure in the form of several 3-day training classes in tactical handgun, carbine, and shotgun over the last 5 years. These classes were tought by experienced SWAT instructor types and I feel I have gained some level of comfort in the use of all my weapons.

In a situation of anarchy or invasion I personally would feel more comfortable carrying something with the instant close range high power delivery of a shotgun. The damage and destruction those things can cause is unbelievable, as I'm sure you know. I'm friends with a former border patrolman who took a close range .223 shot in the "love handle", the proyectile exited thru the middle of his ass cheek, and because of the adrenaline he didn't even know he was shot till he saw the blood later on. Now if that had been a close range 2/0 buck shot he probably would not be walking today at best.

Hey, I never said the rifle ain't good, I just said I would take the shotgun because I feel I would be more effective with it in a situation of chaos. I love my rifles, but the shotgun would be my choice.

Now you can picture a SHTF scenario in a way which will favor the rifle. I picture darkness, multiple threats, and a need for a quick way out of a bad spot.

No, that is what spare uppers are for. Anything in the lower can be replaced in seconds, a couple of minutes tops.

The only people who think FA gun is useless in SHTF scenario are people who do not own FA gun. Better to have a FA gun and only use it in semi, than to have a semi and need FA and not have it.

Take note boys!

Prevention is the best medicine. Never let her get in that condition. Replace the minor parts as you see excessive wear. Keep a spare bolt and minor parts set. If you want to be truly ready for SHTF, then maintain your rifle as if your life depended on it, which it just might. I don't know of any routine maintenance which couldn't be performed overnite with the proper parts and /or tools.

MADM16A1, what training class did you attend that taught you didn't need to aim your shotgun?

A nice Vang Comp'ed shotgun can reach out quite nicely, but not as far as a rifle.  If my M16 goes down, I'll fall back on my select fire FN-LAR para with 14" bbl.  Ammo is heavy but life is rough like that sometimes.

In all honesty, I would feel absolutely a-okay with an alternate AR-15 semi.  Full auto is generally unnecessary and counterproductive unless you are facing down the zombie hordes.

if you guys stick with ak47 and do the normal cleaning in addition to complet cleaning 3 times a year, you'll never be in this mess.

ak freak here.

Training by Morrigan Consulting.

And please point out where I indicated I was "taught I don't need to aim my shotgun"... because I don't see it.

If you refer to the statement where I indicated that in a specific situation I can aim in a general direction and blast... I'm sure that if you open your mind a litle bit you might be able to envision that such a situation would not be that unlikely in an urban SHTF environment where my objective was defense and survival.

If not... does it really matter? I will still use what I'm comfortable with. My shotgun and my pistol.

You wrote earlier:


Don't get me wrong, you can use whatever you like. I am not disputing your choice, I am disputing the claim that a shotgun is the better choice because you don't need to aim. I asked what training you took because I couldn't believe that anyone would teach that a shotgun didn't need to be aimed. Yes there maybe a very slim chance that you won't have time to shoulder your shotgun, but if time is that critical your odds of missing do to stress increase. If you have time to aim your shotgun, then you would have time to aim a rifle. Since the discussion was about an M16, a 3 round burst into an opponent would work just nicely IMO.

Again, you can use what you like, so I won't bother posting my opinions on why I feel the rifle is a better choice for most hypothetical SHTF scenarios.

YOUR M16 is down.

Why would I feel vulnerable?

Heck, if I had an $8,000 M16, I'd spare EVERY single part but the lower receiver, AND have a spare upper as well.

With my lowly AR15's I spare all the minor parts, plus a barrel, handguards, buttstocks, etc....

A gas tube & rings are 10 minutes of work.

If your ar is down for repairs and you feel vulnerable, try this before you go out and buy 3 more guns.   RELAXING!
I have an AR for recreational shooting and hunting, not because I feel that my life is in serious danger at any given moment.
Besides, a $1,000 rifle is worth nothing if SHTF and what's holding it isnt ready for the physical burdens to come.  Meaning, your body is healthy and working well.
If SHTF an AR would give your position away very quickly, when the enemy hears (BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM) he's gonna come running and if you cant run at least 3 miles in under 25 minutes, be able to climb rock walls, and swim for 30 minutes then your AR isnt gonna save your life...sorry

Exactly. [noclue]

He's right you know. This is a good thread. A pump shotgun is good, for one or two adversaries. Spare parts are always essential for a SHTF situation. For everyone who has fired a full auto rifle nothing beats a reliable select fire rifle for taking out multiple assilants unless you have a high explosive device or a nuclear bomb.

Frisco+Renegade=[:K]


FA is awesome.. But lets first discuss what is Shit hit the fan? Zombies? Terrorists.....or should we say crazed neighbors that are trying to steal your SHTF/bug out equipment and will kill you to save there lives? Or maybe LEO's coming to confiscate your weapons gong door to door? What are scenarios?
I though long an hard about SHTF options during all this terrorist bull shit and figured the only people I would likely be dropping would be americans that are ill prepared and want to steal my survival equipment or food or drugs or running cars or gas etc.

If its crazed Mexicans in Texas then we already lost. they out number us by the thousands here.....FA would be the only choice to get out of the way of chili eating fire breathing Mexicans....

What is the fear from? If we get poisoned? You should have antidote. if we get blasted you should have protection. I have a bug out route and Off road vehicle equiped to handle nearly every terrain from here to New Mexico where I will hide out until the coast is clear.. I can travel from Dallas to New Mexico entirely off road with loaded fuel cargo and family oh and weapons.

I aint skeared of nothing except not being able to protect my daughter

Yup that's about it. Once there was a thread about body armor. I saw a few pics and realized all the guys in the pics were fat and I mean fat. If you are a fatty, you are dead your rifle or shotgun or whatever else ain't gonna save you. I train ALL THE TIME besides shooting I am an avid mountain biker. I can easily do 25 miles in a little over an hour and I am fierce in the dirt. I love these SHTF discussions, you guys really do crack me up, I can hear you guys shouting aloud "Wolverines!" Here's a SHTF reality check:

Scenario A: Anarchy ; unarmed sheepish Americans are not going to try and take your food or gas or medicine, if by some bizzare chance civil chaos erupts they will wait for municipal "help." By the time they figure it out, you should have mountain biked far far away.

Scenario B: Invasion... uh, who is going to invade the U.S.? Who can mobilize enough troops to storm our beaches or paratroop in without any detection from Big Bro or NORAD? This is not a reality. Perhaps Achmed will have an episode of Islamic Jihad Impulse Control Disorder and detonate one of the hundreds of suitcase nukes "missing" from those Soviet bastards (sorry, I still don't accept them as friends)in which case, you are F*cked, you still wanna live through that anyway?

Scenario C: Disease, the most likely i.e. Smallpox, Ebola....PYHBYLAKYAG!! Oh and those chem suits from Tapco will be useless. Your M16 ain't gonna thwart off Ebola.
In all reality in a survival situation your firearm is like tenth on the list of what you need and what you need to know to survive in a cold, dark, rainy desolate forest. Lonliness will kill you if scurvy doesn't kill you first. I have spent long periods of time in the woods detached from society, your mind gets weird. It gets hot and you start to see shit you get a little spooked and you start to hear shit. There is much, much more to survival then your M16 or 870 sorry but it's very true. The first and foremost thing is conditioning of the mind, then the body and all the spare buffer detent springs in the world ain't gonna help you.

Truth be told if society as we knew it crumbled, 90% of you would give up immediately, this is human nature. You would be lured by food and order. 8% would die and 2% would hide. The fat guys in body armor, well, you're already dead. Viva Hollywood!!
WOLVERINES!!!! [ROFL]

Laughin my white ass off!

The question of what would be better for a shootout in a grocery store if Shit Hit The Fan:AR or 12 gauge? really cracked me up...
If SHTF why would you find yourself on "Mainstreet" in town shooting people in the face for Canned Corn and Pop Tarts?

Ease off the Bruce Willis movies for a month Buddy...

Laughing with ya. It's obvious some fellas here fantasize about this "SHTF" day....just cracks me up. Pharmacolgy has come a long way, you can get medicine now.

I gotta say it is funny.

So many guys grabbing there gun first....then what...duuuuh well hummmmmmmmm...and ummmmmmmmmmm. lets see....hrmf.........but.................

SHTF=GTHO (get the hell out)

I figured it wouldn't be long before some of the Grizzly Adams types crawled out of their cave. I would of thought one of you would of told us how you can kill a bear with a Swiss army knife or skin a rabbit with your teeth.

You seemed to miss the point of the original discussion. I thought this was a SHTF discussion and not a TEOTWAWKI kind of event. This topic was also supposed to discuss possible weapons selection for the many possible SHTF scenarios. Since there are to many different variables for the hypothetical SHTF scenarios it would be kind of hard to cover it all here.

Let me be cliche here and give one possible SHTF scenario that happened already, the LA Riots. Granted most of us don't live an area that would probably see this kind of event, but you never know.

The best anyone can do is to learn as much as possible about all relevant subjects. In the end it will be your brain that will be the best survival tool.

The LA riots are hardly what these guys mean. yes defend your property in a riot but do you think the Korean merchants in LA sat around gaining weight and setting up their ultimate "SHTF" weapons or do you think they simply had rifles to defend themselves going about their lives and when the riots did happen they simply took their cheap AK's and defended their property? Gee, where were all the California guys with their AR's during the riots? Not out shooting it up with the Koreans, hmmm they must have been at home hiding. Where were the California guys when that Commie Davis signed the bill that banned their rifles and forced registration? Oh thats right they all lined up like good little boys and "registered" their guns. Please, spare me. Your statement vindicates the hillarity of these posts. So while everyone is re-barreling their AR's when the "SHTF" they will be shot dead by normal everyday people that never even considered the "SHTF" I'm sorry if the SHTF, I stand by my opinion that 90 if not 95% of the AR15.com internet warriors will piss themselves and surrender their weapons all the while claiming to the authorities that they have always been opposed to the private ownership of firearms. I grew up around these guys during the height of the 1970's and 1980's "SHTF" and Turner Diaries BS and guess what? IT HASN'T HAPPENED!!! The LA riots aren't at all what we are discussing here. point is, it's time to lay off the action movies and get a woman and everything will be ok.

yeah i had that feeling.....my ar15 gas tube needed to be replaced once, and i felt unsecure.  I bought another gun. lol

After reading your latest post, I am left with the impression that your daydreamed SHTF scenario revolves around the government wanting to disarm the populace. Don't tell me you are stupid enough to think you can resist the government and its powers?

As I stated earlier, the SHTF stuff can be many different things to different people. Learning everything you can will greatly increase your odds of surviving whatever may come along. This could just mean that someone has made an educated decision on what is the best pistol for them to carry around. They may have also taken the time to play out in their head how they would respond to certain factors while carrying their gun, just in case they need to defend themselves one day. To some people having to use the pistol they carry is the SHTF. This maybe not the same thing that was discussed earlier in the thread, but I don't think it would be possible to discuss every possible situation in this post.

 

Where did you get the idea from anything I said that I daydream about this ludacris SHTF scenario? That is a million miles from what I was saying. At no time did I make any mention about day dreaming about resisting the government my point is that in any of these scenarios these thought out well planned firearm systems will be of zero use. I am MAKING FUN of people who think they can resist the government or fight off swarms of invaders or any of the other assinine ideas I read about this manufactured  psycosis of "SHTF" I grew up shooting and hunting, this has been in my family forever and the people on these forums who are obviously new to this cultur simply remind me of some of the bone heads I encountered growing up. I am not the day dreamer but many here are. This "SHTF" fantasy is not new and my point is it aint ever happened and never will.

Personally I hope that you correct about this. Given human nature and all the examples from the history, I don't think we will be that lucky. It may not be a TEOTWAWKI, but something unpleasant anyway.

Yep, sometimes it is easy to tell the young guys from the old farts.  The young people think that the world is staight-forward.  Whereas the old farts have lived long enough to have seen some strange crap happen. As I get older, I become more aware that strange crap does happen.  

Perfect example is 9/11.  Think about it.  A guy places a reply on AR15.com dated 09/11/2000 (not 2001).  The poster says that SHTF could happen like some wacko hijacking a plane, and flying it into the WTC, and the WTC falls down into a pile of ashes.  I GURANTEE YOU THAT EVERONE WOULD SAY THIS ARFCOM MEMBER WAS CRAZY, and that this would NEVER, EVER HAPPEN.  But, it did happen - SHIT CAN HAPPEN.  Never under estimate your enemy or the situation.

That's cool that you think you're some kind of hot shit and assume everyone else in this discussion is a fat fuck.

Thanks for the wisdom He-man.

Yep it is real easy to tell the young guys from the old farts and i won't even get into that, that is an entirely different discussion ESPECIALLY if you are from the oh so wonderful 60's generation, if you are, I thank you for the wonderful job you have done since your generation has come of age. Yep, sure 9-11 I guess you could say was a big - time FUBAR SHTF scenario but what's laughable is the logic that a rifle could stop a commercial airliner from plummeting into the WTC. Sure, had someone been armed on board and if so many folks weren't so ignorantly anti-gun and accepted the infringment of their right to bear arms, perhaps the terrorists would have been shot dead on board and the whole thing would have been avoided but that didn't happen did it? My point is simple, you cannot prepare for everything and our boys have faced extremely determined and vicious enemy combatants throughout the history of our great nation. Many of these combatants were third world guerilla warriors with no flash hiders or Eotechs or whatever. I originally started out poking fun at all the Rambo wannabees but now that I am taking proverbial fire I must defend my stance. Our Rangers and Delta got the crap kicked out of them in Somalia by a bunch of drugged up lunatics wearing sandals, look at Vietnam, look at our current situation in Iraq. Point is, you cannot prepare for "what may happen" ever and at no point in American history has any of the gear mentioned in these threads been used in a "SHTF" scenario by regular citizens. No the LA riots (those were Korean merchants with $300 stamped AK's) and again, I saw no Americans out in the streets of LA wearing body armor with a $4000 AR15 set-up liberating the streets of Compton. Not 9-11 either, not one American citizen used their AR set up to thwart of the terrorists. Not the Revolutionary war, that was fought with single shot black powder muskets. As a matter of fact the only time some moron thought it would be a good idea to use their "AR SHTF set-up" they were lunatics who were smoked out by the government i.e. Waco. I am prepared to defend myself and home make no mistake but perhaps against a home invader, not maurauding zombies or my neigbors trying to steal my excederin when for whateve reason all civil order ceases to exsist. This SHTF scenario fantasy is as old as the day is long and has never ever happened the way some of these guys think it will. Well fellas I hope i am right, I love America and I know you guys all do too, this is the one common thread we all share here, love foe our country and our heritage. I love my familiy and friends so I pray for peace and order, I know you guys do too. If for some weird reason our excellent military is destroyed and we are the last line of defense for our Republic, I will be right there with you guys. Until then I will enjoy the sport of shooting at the range and hunting as I have my whole life. That's all guys, just trying to show some guys reason.

I'm glad you're having fun, but if you're having a little trouble digesting the topic there's always the www.DrPhil.com forum for the more down to earth scenario discussions you prefer.

read the first page, you will find the question I was refering to.....numbnuts

When the SHTF I'm grabbing my 9-round 12 gauge pump and my 45 pistol. As much as I LOVE my M16, I just don't see how it would be a better choice on survival mode, I would have to leave it behind.
END

Sorry but a shotgun is a good tool in many areas but its a second place finisher when compated to a modern 223/556 assault rifle or semi auto carbine. The shotgun works good from 0 to 50 yards or even 100 if your good. It holds less ammo and recoils more. The 223 is good from 0 to 500 yards or so and holds lots of ammo and is easy to shoot well. Anyone who thinks they don't need to aim a shotgun especially at close range needs to attend some tactical shotgun training. Shotguns shoot small shot spreads at close range. At across the room distances the shot pattern is about the size of a fist. thats very easy to miss with. In reality its not faster to shoot a shotgun than it is to shoot a rifle. You can also miss just as fast with either weapon. The shotguns advantages come into play as a survival weapon. It can be used to take small game and large game with slugs. The 556 is more limited in this area.
Pat

I live in middle of nowhere. One and only time I called 911, it took 45 minutes for someone to come out. Cell phone service does not work, and wireline telephone is out along roadway, anyone can cut anytime.

SHTF? I do not need the world to end to have SHTF. SHTF can happen anyday, anywhere.

How about as I type this I see a pick-up truck  coming up my driveway. Another lost city folk, happens all the time - where is ???; then I see in truck 4 sorry-ass MFs, I see they have a gun or two... Ordinary everyday situation just went SHTF in ONE second.

Now, Do I grab a 9mm Glock, or an M16? If you have not already decided and have in hand by the time you get to reading the end of this paragraph, you are dead.

I guess it all depends on how determined you are to live.

Children afraid of the dark!

A home invasion IS a SHTF scenario!  Some folks seem to lump that into roving packs of gang bangers or total civil disorder. Unlikely yes!  BUT SHTF can be anything where "the shit hits the fan"!

Like I said, its what I'd feel most comfortable with if things got bad. Something that might help me get out quickly from a desperate spot or a tight situation.

I don't have enough training to feel comfortable with a rifle in a high-stress situation. I own an M16 and have owned several AR-15 in the past, but besides a couple of training classes and a great deal of plinking, I have no idea how I well would react with it going in or out of an intense moment.

I'm gonna have to reread my first post, because I believe I said something about MY choice of weapon if the SHTF, and what I would do. But I don't remember telling anyone what they should do, or saying that a shotgun is a better machine that an M16. Again, I LOVE my M16, but my shotgun is just utilitarian. It has been my home defense weapon since I remember.

I can see how a highly trained individual would be most effective with a rifle and be in full control during a stressful life and death situation. I don't have that training, so if you don't mind I'll stick with my choice.