Received an email from a friend "who has been there, done that, and is now in charge", concerning the recent testing of the G36, SIG550 and the Enhanced M4. The only information that he would give is that the G36 and the SIG550 failed badly. The M4 won the competition.  I'm not sure what this means, but since the XM8 is little more than a G-36 with new fenders, could this mean the death of the XM8?

What is your friend "in charge of"?

G36 failing miserably? Im no LARRYG36, but I am not sure the G36 would crash and burn so much...

A good reporter never reveals his sources.

Not trying to flame ya there Delta6, but what you just posted was one hellva mouthfull.  The G36 and Sig failing badly.  Common man.  I think a little more background info on your "freind" is required for that post to hold any water at all.  As OReily would say, "Show me the facts."  Your not showing us anything and it won't be long until someone comments on your low post count, not that I have a high one.  More info.

From what I've read on Hkpro.com. Seems LarryG36 I has had some issues with his g36s lately.  Problems caused by sustained full auto fire, melting the upper.

Maybe Larry himself could enlighten us as to the details.


BTW, this is interesting news and I'm sure it's 100% reliable as everything I read on the internet is true especially from those who don't/can't reveal their sources [:D].

It's fun to talk about anyway.

[BS2]

No offense, but why should I believe you?  What were the tests conducted? Why did the Sig and HK fail badly? Where were the tests conducted? Who did the tests? etc.... Answers to questions like those would help.

All i can say is with all the M4 improvements the Marines new A4 rifle and the LMT company that made the new bolt/carrier assembly being tested is also developing a 6.8mm upper its safe to say the M16 design will be with us I say another 15 or 20 years.The only thing ive heard about the G36 is Larry breaking piston rods because the trunion fell out of alignment due to heat wich also melted the upper receiver over the barrel nut wich had to be dremeled away to remove the barrel.M16 handguards might deform or melt due to excessive heat but you wont see aluminum alloy melt due to full auto abuse .The barrel on the other hand wont melt but can get ruined from such abuse.

[img]http://1000smilies.com/trumpet.gif[/img][BS2]

Ridge:

If everyone revealed their sources, there would be no sources.  I'm sure that info and data on the testing will be available soon, if not already.  Last month I had an ongoing discussion in one of the forms with reference to the "does not exist 6.8mm cartridge". I believe the information that I wrote about then, has proven to be pretty close to fact. Different source, but still pretty reliable. If the opportunity avails itself to identify the source, I will. Until then, the facts, when released will prove if QCMGR is correct.

UncleSAM:
I apologise for my low post count.  My mother's slip is showing.  She instilled in me an old fashioned ideal..."Don't say anything unless you have something to say".  For that also I apologise.

QCMGR:
Hey man....great flag!

Very true, but with no sources or factual reference there is no substance to the post even if it is 100% true.  So if you cannot reveal your sources (and there could be a legit reason for this) we are all left to speculate, and then this just boils down to a fun "what if this was true" thread. Which is fine with me.

This is exactly what I was refering to and is the same information I read (although I believe the thread has been removed or I would hot link it).

The info that Delta man just gave is correct, but it is just one of a series of eval's that are still on going. Don't forget that on this forum and others that it has already been reported by a German user that the G36 and it's shorty versions are a disaster in the German military, and why in detail. I have handled it and also think it is a piece of rediculas crap.
The Swiss make great weapons, but not for war, in their entire history, the swiss don't fight. Their idea of military action is the swiss guard with pikes at the vatican.
As for the XM8, like so many other weapons that come along, it will eventually die due to many report's of a lack of end user support, and the great dislike of it in human engineering etc.,compaired to the M16/M4.    

I wish it was mine, it is from the anim Legend.  If your source is correct, their will be a lot of crow eating.

This is getting more interesting by the minute.
[bounce]

I wanna know how the SG550 failed.

Mine has been FAR more reliable than any of the 4 AR-type weapons I own.

If there's a problem with it, I wanna know so I can be prepared.

Oh, and 3rdtk, while I respect your opinion, the Swiss have produced many fine weapons, and the 550 has seen plenty of combat.  I invite you to try mine out and see for yourself.  The only difference between "theirs" and mine is the sear in the lower.

Where and when?  What combatant today use it?  

With all due respect and all, and I also agree the swiss make fine weapons, however their weapons do not stand up to the rigors of military combat use. The Swiss make fine watches, but a timex will take a likin and keep on tickin, but the swiss watch won't compaired to the timex in combat. The Swiss therfore have never had a weapon adopted by anyone except their own military that do not fight, ever.
Good shootin, Jack

I heard of mag releases braking on the g36. Has anyone else? I also saw a TV show on Tech TV called Future Fighting Machines. It showed marines on a field exercise using the Tavor.

Austria currently fields the 550, and I know of many instances (some as recently as this year in Iraq) where Austrian special forces have used the 550/1 in combat.

There are also many SWAT teams that use the 551 SWAT and 552 (slightly different internals than the 550/1).

The 550 series obviously hasn't seen as much as the M16/G3/FAL etc, but it has seen combat and has proven itself to be reliable.

I'll see if I can find some links for you.  I had some photos of special forces (caption said they were Austrian) using them in Iraq.  I'll see if I can find those as well.

[url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/idr550/[/url]

Bah.  I wish they had never included that weapon in Counterstrike.  Every search I make is filled with crap from that game.  But hey, it's combat proven there too, right?  [;)]

I might buy the SWAT teams using it in a few fights, but since the only thing the Austrians have done in regard to Iraq is condemn the US.  They are not one of the 30 nations that are part of the "Coalition of the willing."

With all due respect, STLRN, you know that there were quite a few nations that participated (albeit in a small way compared to others) and didn't want it to be known.

I [i]personally[/i] know of people that went to Iraq from Austria.  I wouldn't have guessed it otherwise, as I know Austria has basically condemned the war publicly.  If you choose not to believe me then there's not much else I can say.  I'm still looking for the pics, but I have a feeling they didn't get moved onto this PC.

If you can show some real substantial proof I will freely admit I am wrong on this one, but last time I looked on SIPR site that listed troop involvement in that area, Austria was not listed, it did however list troops from Germany that were only providing support in Kuwait.

And if the contigent was as small as it not being listed how much actual combat did they see?  How many fire fights occured with such a small force that they didn't even make news in their own nation.

STLRN, let me take this to IM with you.

I am talking about adoption, and a few Austrian troops with some SIG'S is not adoption. Just that they went from the AUG that turned into a disaster to one that hasn't been noticed by them yet.
A handfull of police depts with them is certainly does not have anything to do with a military weapon.
The toerances are very very tight, and like the Luger pistol, will not function as well and reliable as the 45, P38, Browning Hi Power.
You still havn't shown where any Swiss weapon has been adopted except in Swiss military who still don't ever fight.
You might be correct about the game aspect, but that's as close as I think it will get to real combat weapon adoption.
If you go into JANES WEAPONS BOOKS over the past many decades, you will see the list that shows what counties have adopted various Swiss rifles/hand guns for military use, Switzerland, that's it.
Good shootin, Jack
 

Since 3rdtk has reference close tolerances I am assuming the Sig failed in the relaibility department.  Is that true?  I heard the standard of accuracy of a G36K is 10 MOA.  Did it fail due to accuracy concerns?

I guess my question is...

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY THE SIG 550 AND G36 FAILED IN TRIALS?

This is not any kind of national security risk or anything so it should be no biggie to tell since you can already say they failed.

Hey Delta6, the post comment was pretty juvinile (sp) on my part so I apologize.  I would still have to see some hard facts to give creditability to your post.  I hope your right, by the way.  I love the AR-15/M-16 family of weapons and I don't believe the 550 or G36 are such better weapons that merit them to be the M-16's successor.  Having said that, I do believe that both the 550 and G36 are just as good as the M-16.  I would really have to see a report about them falling on their asses.  Isn't the 550's action based on the AK?

Timex?  You have got to be kidding.  I have worn Timex watches all of my life and they are hardly durable.  Cheap, yes - but they can't handle harsh conditions.

As for the subject at hand - who cares?  This is all so early in the game that it is ridiculous.  Nobody even seems to know who the proponent for this alleged new weapon is - and the infamous Army Times article wasn't much help.

At the AUSA (Army) show in D.C. last week the buzz was the XM8 is here and 6.8 is the leading caliber of choice.  The examples shown of the XM8 were not marked as to caliber but closely resemble the sample "first article" units seen at Crane the last few months.
Is eveybody here aware of the SERIOUS plant HK is building stateside?

What I really want to know is, what will the US do with all those M16s and M4s?  Probably just waste all our tax dollars by destroying them.

especially when those 'sources' are imaginary [:p]

The XM8 will more than likely become just like the ACR and SPIW programs......DOA.  There is no way the US military will deep six the entire M16 series.  We are still fielding M16 and M16A1's that are 1960's vintage and we don't have enough small arms to go around as it is.

CAPCO hasn't finished converting the M16A1's into A2's  yet and both the Department of the Army and the Dept of the Navy(USMC) have just purchased large #'s of M4's and M16A4's. Every major AR player is currently working on the next greatest thing to submit for the SOPMOD II, III and on.

 If the XM8 is adopted the M16 will still be issued as standard B and the XM8 will use M16 magazines so they will interchange....don't worry survialist's(nothing wrong with being one) you'll still be able to get 5.56 and magazines if and when the SHTF.  

As to the G36/550 issue. Both weapons have been tested by various Elite units and agencies(US and abroad) and everyone of them has adopted the M4 either US or Diemaco made. Some LE agenices have purchased the G36 or the Sig 550, mostly for the cool factor or the person incharge of procurement it anti-M16.

You guys need to remember that there are people on this board who work in and around the firearms and military community that still practice OPSEC/COMSEC or keep their promise to keep their mouth shut when they get some intel....be happy that people let out the little leaks from time to time.

Next to Ft benning !

the AUSA meeting attracts contractors of all shapes and sizes, many often trying to find an "in" with some general to grease the skids for the procurement of their product.  It is not an official DOD event and I personally HOPE H&K isn't working any dirty tricks to sell their stuff.  Between the Ordnance Center and the Infantry Centers of the Army, I am not aware of anybody expressing the need to replace the M16/M4 series.  The XM8 and all it;s hooplah seems to be a solution to a non-existing problem.  This would not be the first time some bean counter pushed a system on the services that they never asked for, but I hope this is not the case.

Mike:
Adam_White has a pretty good take on the AUSA show. The only XM8 I have ever seen or heard about was made of wood. If anyone knows about any testing that has been done with the XM8, I'm sure we would all like to hear about it.

As far as the HK people building a plant in the US, "next to Ft. Benning", I believe that economics played the major role in that decision. I realize this is a gun site not a economics class, so I won't delve too deeply into it; but think about the advantages of manufacturing in the US compared to manufacturing in the socialist run country of Germany and you will appreciate it was a "no-brainer" for their management team. For them to be competitve in any market, military, LE or commercial, they needed to move production of key products out of Germany.  Do the math; they employ around 500 people using standard German work rules; which in  reality means, they work half the time a US stateside employee works and they earn twice the wages. On a thumb nail calculation, all things being equivalent (and there not), they can produce twice the product for the same labor cost or the same amount of product for half the labor cost here in the US.  In manufacturing labor is the largest cost variable. The idea that they moved next to Ft. Benning because of some contract, well, if it was true, I believe through FOIA we would all know by now. I would surmise that there were many advantages in moving to that part of the country.  There was probaly an incentive package offered by the local community or the state in the form of tax relief, donated land, building construction cost assistance, etc. Also, that area of the country has been hard hit by manufacturing job loss to Mexico and the Pacific Rim, so there is a well trained/skilled labor force in place. They also gain the advantage in working with the military and law enforcement of providing a product that is more friendly, because it is made in the US.  Their business plan may include other reasons, but the economic reasons generally are the main drivers.

The Sig550 series failed badly at what???

Missing the target? Requiring more time to clean? What did it fail at? This sounds like utter horsecrap. This isn't a Norinco, chief...it's a Sig.

It's one of the most rugged rifles I've seen for modern combat, has good accuracy and ergos and was put through one of the most rigorous adoption tests ever laid down by a military (read up on it sometime). The Swiss are extremely thorough about their arms, but a blowhard with a bone-to-pick and no personal experience can use his "source" to disparage what he knows little about.

Anyone who owns a K-series or a PE-57 (I happen to own an array of Swiss guns) can tell you their rifles were built for extremely rough service without a sacrifice to extreme accuracy. The fact that the GP-11 cartridge is match grade and the ONLY ammo they made was testament to what they wanted in war - a rifleman's rifle.

The G-36? Yup, it's a so-so gun but the Sig-550 is a rock solid AK/AR hybrid and has few flaws. The handguard melting is often quoted, but my swiss friends tell me it's not a problem, and they shoot them.

I'll stick to what I know and experience first hand, and distrust what you and your imagionary friend have to say.

nah, that ain't true.  Some Latin American militarys have adopted the SIG 550.  Chile, I know for certain has.

I was actually at the tests..The G36 and Sig were doing great until test #43:

When charging handle pulled to rear, does ejection port cover open?

..I hear they failed the forward assist trials too.. but I had moved on to the M41A pulse rifle display by that point in the demo..

SIG was at the test for the DEA contract, that is the test which end up with them getting the Rock River as their choice. I heard there was problem with the SIG but what was the problem I wasn't told and I still can't get anyone to give me the low down.  I even heard the Bushmaster and Colt had problems but the RRA was the one that that had the least problem.

A friend that would not allow me to quote the source and if I did he will hunt me down and kill me told me a recent Army test the M4PIP shot some of the best 5.56 rifle in the world to the gound.  this is pretty much in line with what Delta6 is talking about.  

I still want a SIG 551 very badly.

ahahahahaha

Good one

I hear it failed the "Carry Handle" trials too!

Problems encountered with the Sig 550 and HK G36 series:

1.) Charging handles on both are prone to breakage more so with the HK G36. HK has a program in place to fix the problem(Happened with the civilian SL8 and USC as well as some of the G36's sold to US LE Agencies)

2.) Bolt fractures on the HK G36 and a few reported on the Sig 550 as well. Sig has had a problem with the oprods/piston rod breaking

3.) Both rifles were and still are plagued with folding stocks that break. The plastic utlized has not proven to stand up to repeated abuse. Both rifles have also experienced faliures of the front handguards during extended full auto and prolonged rapid fire.

4.) Magazines are failing at a faster rate than the Aluminum M16 magazines, again an issue of the plastic not standing up to repeated abuse.

5.) Optical sight on the G36 is not strong enough to endure abuse. Agenices and units stuck with the G36 are replacing the tri-sight with fixed front and rear sights and going with Aimpoints or Eotechs.

6.) Sig 550 is not modular enough. The barrel is fairly complicated to remove unlike the G36 and M16 rifles. With it's built in Flash-hider it's hard to mount standard 1/2X28 accessories.

FYI the Sig series has been used in some Latin American countries(Chile produces it under license) and France(big deal) used some of the early models before the FAMAS was fully adopted.

Think about who has adopted the HK and Sig lines and then look at who uses the M16 series.  All the talk of the SAS going to the HK is crap.....just a marketing tool by HK. The SAS/SBS just purchased a large order of Diemaco C7 and C8's to replace and bolster the number of M16's they bought right after GW1.

The M16 can be configured from a pistol cal. subgun to a beltfed(SHRIKE) LMG, The HK trys to do the same thing but it doesn't work very well and is not really as modular as they lead you to believe.

The XM8 will die a slow and expensive death just like the SPIW and ACR programs of the  1960',70's and 80's. Instead of updating what we have and making it better the DOD is always trying to spend money on the next great thing.

Expect the M16 series with PIP upgrades to  serve the US and quite a few other militaries for the next 15-20+ years. I think Knight's, PRI, LMT,COLT, etc.....will all agree.

That is correct, atually, there's a chilean company called FAMAE that manufactures SIGS under license.  

here, some graphics: of the sig (FAMAE)family, i like this particular version.
[img]http://www.famae.cl/f_540_a.jpg[/img]



Here's another pic, in this case a subgun. (looks like a mix between an MP5 and a sig rifle)
[img]http://www.famae.cl/s_02_a.jpg[/img]

HUNTER.

Actually, this happened over a year ago.  All left Canada for the SAS with our (KAC) M4 RAS (UK/SAS Style) which is a standard RAS upper, but with a lower that incorporates a clamp to lock it to the barrel nut (as does the upper RAS).  The lower had to be modified to secure their also new 40mm HK Grenade Launchers.

Hey guys..I'd like to thank y'all for coming forward with facts and support.  Special Thanx to: model927, 3rdtk, mikepenn33, Colt-653, Adam_White, Ahab and SMGLee.  To the rest of you folks, I didn't post this info to be divisive. I understand that questioning the reliability of anyone's favorite firearm, can be heresy, and that was not the intent.   I felt it was important information that I should share with folks of 'mutual interests'.  My sources are reliable, or else they cease to be my sources.  I'm not above 'retraction' if necessary.

And to those of you....well, let's say , to those "hard-convincers":

QCMGR:  Man...next time be a little easier on me.  Still a cool flag.  And, oh, no crow eating necessary.

Hoplite: Nice horn.

UncleSAM: This will help my post count. Apology accepted, no offense taken. Thanx.

Ridge: I think my source is correct and he appreciates your input.

Swingset: Liked your input...Imaginary friend?, that's original. I'll be sure to ask him if he dreamt this all up.

Absolut: See Swingset above.

Oh, yea...HeavyMetal....you are correct!

LOL! At least you have a sense of humor! [;)]

Delta6
Your welcome.

No one fucks with the swiss because the last time someone did they found out how insane Swiss soldiers can be.



Brouhaha posted a wonderfull link and I recommend you read it, then stop talking like a un-educated blowhard.



Actually the real reason is because most departments cannot afford them. The swiss dont make these guns for peanuts,

Ahahahahaha.
Now thats funny. Sorry but I could beat my 550 charging handle with a rock and the only thing that would happend is the rubber grip would come off.



Please, some sources for this information. And please, dont tell me AR's have never had bolt fractures. I have never heard or seen a SIG 550 looking like this:

[img]http://www.quarterbore.com/images/kaboom012.jpg[/img]



SIG 550 has no heat sheild, the swiss dont beleive in the US system of spray and pray, thats why they issue 20rd mags instead of 30rd mags and they prefer their soldiers leave their rifles on semi-auto instead.



Mute point, Canada use to melt thermold mags in FA and they got the nickname Thermelts.



Swiss Arms (SIG no longer makes these rifles) is comming up with a rail handguard for those losers who need to make their rifle into a boating anchor.



Think of all the government handouts and the fact that the contract always goes to the lowest bidder.



The shrike has been on a delay for almost a full year now. And how many countries convert their rifles into LMG's? HK knows what reliability is:
[img]http://www.hkpro.com/mg43pile.jpg[/img]

Lets see the shrike do that. Frankly even in the shrike vids you never see them shoot more then 50rds and there is no word if they have ever done any long sustained fire with it.

Also pistol caliber conversions are used by how many countries? Only the US that I know of and they are used by the DOE, every other agency uses MP5's.



You are just as good in backing up what you say as the newbie that started up this thread. You make alot of claims but I bet you have never even held or shot a 550 in your life.

Frankly I own one and so do many other Canadians, and the only complaint ever made is about the $2,300 price tag.

The photo you have of the M16 that exploded, was a round related event.  The same round in any weapon would look the very same.