For those of you who have attended a tactical class with your AR, what accessories or modifications did you want to get right away for your AR?  What did you get rid of, if anything?  Were these decisions made from your hands-on experience (i.e. blistered finger from the trigger guard gap) or from the instructor's lecturing?

If there are "general" items you bought after the class that are non-AR specific (camelbak, knee pads, etc.) what were they?

i'v never heard of a problem with the 'trigger guard gap'.  

from general shooting i've learned that i want a rear flip up sight.  the SIR rail under my aimpoint loosened up and i couldn't hit anything.

[b]Items I ditched[/b]
* CTC PALS vest
* Kneepads
* ACE Stubby stock
* IDF Sling

[b]Items I purchased after class[/b]
*Cavarms C1 stock
*CQB Solutions buttstock magazine pouch (instructor recommended)
*Johnson Redi-Mag
*Surefire M500 (instructor's recommendation)
*CQB Solutions Magazine chest carrier
*Comp-Tac AR15 kydex magazine belt pouch

All the items I got rid of or added were from personal experience with the exception of the M500 and stock pouch which my instructor recommended for home defense.The stubby stock was worthless for the class other than shooting while standing.I replaced it with a C1 stock when I got home.I have a preban now so I have a VLTOR stock now and use the Redi-Mag instead of a buttstock pouch.The PALS vest was overkill for a civilian and I would probably never use it except for another class.I bought the CQB chest rig because it was something that I might grab should I need to get all my gear and run out of the house for some emergency.

Yes I got a blister too! Now have the gapper installed and wear hatch gloves. I always take a hydration pack with me even to the range as I don't drink soft drinks or other sugary stuff that is found in the vending mach's. other than that I modified my alum handguards to disapate a little more heat ( another reason for the gloves).

i will be taking a class with my ar next spring in southern ohio. i see alot of people using vests, but i am not comfortable with one so i am interested in hearing from people that use a dropleg mag pouch.

the biggest thing that i added was a folding clip knife and an ink pen for clearing those really bad jams.

i ended up dumping the extended mag and slide release from g 19. so i think that i will just leave my ar stock for the class.

trevor

One student in my Rifle Home defense class had all the junk you could get for an AR!

He was bumming, needless to say, at the range!

I would have loved the Gapper, but it only comes in handy during classes, so I didn't get one.

20 round mags make for much easier tac reloads and prone shooting.

I have a sweet thigh rig for four 30 rounders, but I try not to use shit in the class that I most likely wouldn't have in a real world confrontation.

M3 light and GGG light rail were handy in Patrol Rifle Class. (night shooting)

Stuff I got rid of (or want to)
SPR Grip
KAC Vertical Grip (Broke off)
SF M3 in Tasco Scope Ring
Standard CAR RattleTrap stock
SOE Patrol Subload
USGI Silent Sling
Stock Trigger
Stock Mag Release

Stuff I've added (or want to)
Ergo Ambi Grip or TD Battlegrip
TD Vert Foregrip
SF M961SU04
VLTOR CAR ModStock
SOE Force Subload
Single Point Sling
Aimpoint Comp M2
KAC 2-Stage trigger
Norgon Ambi Catch

The Gapper was the first AR accessory I ever bought. It's probably the best $3 I've ever spent.

-Cap'n

get
Drop leg "dump" pouch.
8 mags for backup gun. (1911)
ass load of 30 round mags for your rifle.  i have 20. so load and pack 20 to the firing line.  i wear 3 or 4 during class and swap out.  i don't carry 20 rounders.
mag pulls.
wear blue geans and use back pockets for mag holders
Eagle mag pouches for AR!
Eagle single mag pouch.  (don't know the model but it has a hard plastic liner so you can re-stow your mag.)
electronic ear muffs!!!  pro ears Dim 2
Lula loader!
sun screen.
soft volly ball elbow pads.
Alta Knee pads.
Sure fire lights!
Scorpion light with red lens.
extra batteries for everything electronic.
2 of everything that is electronic.
athletic tape electrical tape.
ambi safety.
JP single stage trigger.
back up rifle
kick ass gloves!  blackhawk fingerless or pearl zumi "gel-lite".
safety glasses.  4pr.
Windex
roll of Viva paper towels (or any high quality paper towels)

ditch.
Alta elbow pads.  (makes your elbow wobble)
3 mag pouch mill spec
any semblance of a smart ass attitude!
camel back.  (why haul water on your back?  they stop every 10 minutes to reload so take a big gulp from a canteen)

general
yea that rifle will blister the shit out of your middle finger!  i use silicone sealant to fill the hole.  it will never come out and is soft and spongy[:)]

tape your middle and third fingers together and they will support your rifle better.

get a good hat.  i like wool fitted baseball type caps.

good luck and have a safe shoot!

Been to a fair amount of classes. As much as I loved my Bungee sling, I droped it because man, it is thin and digs right into your shoulder. Also ditched Thermold mags after having an otherwise completely unexplainable malfuntion. Dropped the Galeco double pistol mag pouch after it would flop upside down on my belt no matter how I configured it. Dropped the larger ear protection because they got in the way.

Picked up BladeTech pistol mag pouch and have been happy since. Picked up ear plugs. Picked up collared or high neck shirts after having had one too many hot shells find their way down my back. Picked up sunscreen after getting tired of becoming a lobster. Picked up a HydraStorm/Cammelback because I got tired of waiting for a break to get some liquids in me.

Switched from a regular silent sling to a tac sling.

Switched from a carry handle upper to a flat-top upper with an Aimpoint

Realized that what other people were saying about how good an idea it is to have a light on your rifle was completely true, but I still haven't shelled out the money for one.

Realized that all the good advice I've gotten on here about installing a Gapper, using knee pads, etc. was all correct.  


BTW, 308wood, I ordered the Eagle pouch you mention a little while ago from Lightfighter and am waiting for it to arrive along with a couple other items.  I've been using a couple of [url=http://thewilderness.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/12/products_id/23?osCsid=0a2772cc76c83616306a7d00bcf8f613]single mag pouches from The Wilderness[/url] for a while and really like them but want something that stays open so that it's easier to insert a mag.

I just got back from a two day pracital rifle course.  Before I left I installed the gapper and picked up a soft nylon magazine holder.  The gapper stayed and the mag holder was gone the first day.  It was good for holding a magazine, but was terrible for doing reloads as it was always collapsed into it self.  I had a kydex mag holder by lunchtime.

stuff i dropped:
Giles 3 pt sling- got in the way of my left side controls
Several iterations of kneepads- bunched up on my leg or were too  hard to quickly put on/take off
Gloves ( my hatch gloves are nice but get in the way when i'm trying to feel for a round in chamber)

Stuff i am adding
Magpul stock (feels better than conventional coll stock and rcv'd endoresment from instructor)
vertical fore grip
gapper smoothing (mine still leaves a blister)
Alta kneepads (we'll see)
Bushmaster lightweight barrel (cause my 16" M4 is too heavy for one handing)
painted lines (on nuts so i can see if something has slipped)
drop pouch (for classes only very handy for partial mags and empties)
single point sling (we'll see)
driveon rag (for my neck to stop hot brass)

Stuff i've been redeemed on
Aimpoint (seen other types give folks trouble)
camelbak (during a recent very hot class litterly saved my life)
collapsible stock
driveon rag (for my neck to stop hot brass)

The stuff that helped me out (and a few other guys):
- baggy o' spare parts
- drop bag
- magpuls
- vertical foregrip
- camelbak
- long sleeve, breatheable BDU-type shirt

Stuff I'm adding:
- ARMS #40A
- weapon light
- PRI big latch


The only thing I've decided to drop are the aftermarket triggers and full-fingered gloves. Also, shorts didn't play out too well for the folks who decided to wear them...stick with pants (something that fits a little loose).

Tagging this to learn lessons cheaply. [:)]

During the last Patrol Carbine Instructor school I found that the following helped out a lot:

Optics – I run a TA-11 ACOG and found that it works very well at any range, even 3 yards. Other guys in my class that had optics that worked were Aimpoints and Reflex II’s. The instructor, Bill Jeans, likes the Aimpoint. When you have a line of 30 guys shooting AR-15’s and M4’s doing speed drill head shots at three yards it gets very obvious that optics are faster and more accurate.

Surefire Flashlight – At the time I was using an older Classic 6 volt 659. It worked well but I have since changed to a bigger and brighter M900A.

Vertical for grip – I thought I did not like them until this class. I got a chance to play around with the instructor’s personal rife. He had a GG&G vertical grip. I found that it helped reduce fatigue in the wrist and made the rifle “feel” lighter to me.

Mag pouch – I used a Blackhawk Omega 2 mag drop leg pouch with a quick release upper buckle. I found that this worked very well for me. Additionally I have found that this pouch is much more comfortable than my buddies 4 mag version. I have since modified my gear to include this leg pouch and an Omega EOD vest for a total of 4 spare mags on my person.

Mag Pulls – I did not use the loop but found that the band around the bottom of the mag helped me control the mag and get a better grip. When I came home I ordered a bunch more.

Knee pads – I barrowed some from a buddy. I NEED to get some of my own. I will purchase the Alta pads as they are the most recommended pads around.

Camel back – I took one but ended up not using it. I have since used it operationally and do not like to leave home without it.

Hearing protection – I have a set of Peltor Tactical 6S powered ear muffs. Having powered hearing protection helps a lot. You are not straining to hear what the instructor is saying and you do not miss range commands. Don’t forget that you can put them on backwards to hear what is going on behind you better. Depending on where I was in the line I did this to hear the instructor and my partner better.

Tools – Take a sight adjustment tool for every type of sights you have on your rifle. Only two of us out of 30 guys had sight adjustment tools with us. I also took a small screw driver to adjust my ACOG. If you have armors tools (punches, small hammer ect) take them with you. You just never know what you’re going to need. I put together a small tool roll and left it in my range bag. You do not need every thing just what would be needed to change out the small parts you bring with you like extractors.

Parts – A small bag of spare parts is a good idea. If your running a Carbine make sure to take a spare extractor, extractor spring and extractor pin. If you have one just take a spare bolt. That will get you back shooting a lot faster then changing out small parts. That could cost you trigger time.

Cleaning kit – Take a good cleaning kit. I kept a rag and a small bottle of CLP with my ammo. If I had time I would take out my bolt and wipe it down and oil it.

Bill did have gapers for sale at the class and I did notice that over half the class bought one. I did not but probably should have.

Edited to add: PRI big latch - This should be standared on all AR-15 type rifles. If you do not have one get one.

I try my best to sort my gear out before a class; but here is my current rig which is working well for me (minus the sling which is workable but not optimal):

16" Bushy HBAR Flattop (weighs more, swings slower but does lovely rapid fire groups)
PRI Gasbuster w/ Big Latch
SPR Grip
Magpul MSS Stock
ARMS #40
ARMS #19S
TA11 ACOG
Surefire G2 w/inner tube
Boonie Packer 2-point "patrol" sling
M4 Handguards (handguards get toasty quick when you start out in 100 degree weather and then put 800 rounds downrange per day)

Currently, I'd like to replace the sling, the flashlight and the handguards. It all works; but I think I could do better in those areas.

You shoot weak side with the SPR grip Bartholomew?  How is that working for you?

I've been through at least a dozen tactical classes at [url=http://www.tdiohio.com]TDI[/url], and I've learned one thing. [b]Light makes right[/b]. My gun is a 16" RRA Tactical Entry, and it wears an ELCAN. That's it. No light, no vertical foregrip, no laser designator, no mag-pulls, no redi-mags, so stock pouches, no knee-pads, no elbow-pads, no nuthin'. I made my own sling from webbing I bought at an outdoors shop. It tends to be tougher, and yet it's much softer on the skin, so no digging in. I wear a Camelback MULE, and I carry a side arm, with 2 spare mags. The AR mags I use for class are all 20 rounders. They're better for positional shooting drills. One goes in the gun, and I have a pouch that holds 2 more. That's it. That's all I carry, and that's all I need. Don't go overboard. It's not necessary. Wear a pair of comfortable pants or shorts, a good pair of boots and socks, good eye/ear protection, and make sure you bring lots of water. Here's a complete list of stuff I bring for class...

2000 rounds of funtional ammo (not Wolf or Olympic)
1 dity bag of assorted bits for the gun (spare parts, sight tool, bore snake, etc.)
1 handgun w/2 extra mags, and about 200 rounds to feed it
1 AR-type rifle w/ some kind of mounted optic and back-up iron sight
10 20 round magazines
1 GI 20 round mag pouch
1 good set of eyes
1 good set of ears
1 good set of boots
1 Camelback MULE w/2 100oz. bladders
Comfortable clothing
1 boonie hat, to keep the inevitable piece of hot brass form going down your shirt
1 smallish cooler stocked with ice, fruit, Gatorade, and some kind of candy/granola bar

Optional...
flashlight
shooting gloves
knee pads
elbow pads
.22 cal insert and ammo (for the live-fire house, it tames the noise)

That's my list. I don't bother cleaning my rifle at all, save for the occasional run-through with the bore-snake. It's fruitless. The gun's just gonna get dirty tomorrow. I just wipe the crud off the bolt, oil it, and go.

I do limited weak-side shooting just in case. It works OK for pieing a corner on the weak side or close in - it isn't particularly comfortable; but its doable. If I was going to be using my left side a lot I would have a different grip.

Before I took my first carbine class I talked (via the internet) with  an instructor from Gunsite (Pat Rogers) and a number of people who had previously taken carbine classes. So, I had good gear to begin with. After my first class (Gunsite 223) I got rid of the Surefire 500A weapon light because it was heavy and I didnt' see the point in adding weight to the carbine if I didn't need it. Instead, I bought a KAC RAS II and the Surefire 900A light. Now I can add or remove the light as needed. I also now shoot with a vertical foregrip due to advice from Pat Rogers. Another item I purchased during my first carbine class was a LULA mag tool. During the class, you load so many magazines that your fingers become sore. The LULA also makes mag loading faster which is a big plus in classes. Next I ditched the A2 stock and installed an A1 length stock. I prefer a fixed stock and the A2 stock is far too long for a fighting stance. I was also introduced to MagPuls and quickly realized this was also a nice asset.
Things I started with, based on advice primarily from Pat Rogers that proved their worth in class: Aimpoint: faster hits, almost madatory for night shooting, no problem with getting hits out to 400 yards. Single point sling, Camelback, knee and elbow pads, electronic hearing protectors, drop pouch, and pants with lots of pockets.
Since that 223 class I have also taken Gunsite's 556 class and Front Sight's Practical Rifle course. I feel that I have a close to perfect carbine after extensive testing.

The drop down on the leg mag pouches would be nice. I might get some. With three carbine mag pouches, two pistol mag pouches, a drop pouch, and a handgun, there is just too much stuff on the belt. Besides, the mags jam into my love handles when shooting from sitting or kneeling. You can't carry enough mags for either the carbine or handgun. I end up stuffing one in each pocket and one or two in the drop pouch in addition to the ones on my belt.

I take a lot more gear than I need. I carry the tools and parts for almost a complete rebuild, all kinds of batteries, back up this and that. I have never needed any of it. But it is nice to have.
I take a vitamin and two tylonol before and after every day of class. Good shoes are are a must. Long sleeves (even in the desert) arn't a bad idea. Sunscreen is a must. A bandana to keep brass out of your shirt and to wipe sunscreen from your eyes is a must. Drink water all the time. If you arn't pissing every half hour you are heading for trouble. I try to eat some kind of health bar mid moring and mid afternoon if I have the chance. A good solid cleaning rod is nice: in my 556 class two guys got stuck cases (not me). Eye drops are nice if the wind is blowing (dirt in the eyes).

I must be getting old, but for me, I need to spend the week totally for the class. I go to bed early and skip the beer.  

Classes at the major shooting schools are expensive. And, they will really shake down your gear. Make sure you buy good stuff. Trying to save a few bucks might make the money you spent on tuition a waste if your equipment lets you down in the middle of the class.

... 'tis a wise move young grasshopper.



... FWIW, me too and I'm an old fart.

Bring two of everything if you have it.

Glasses with no gaps - dont catch brass with your face.

Asprin - even if you're not old and broken with shot out knees, a GOOD class should leave you hurting at the end of the day.

Bandaids and medical tape - you'll get a lot more wear on you than a trip to the range.

DONT buy cheap nylon gear, especially holsters.  You'll end up chucking it by the end of the first day and paying the schools pro-shop prices for good gear instead.

I think it was Old Painless that had a really good post on what he learned at Thunder Ranch.

Benchmade CQC7

Took gunsite EW1. Got rid of the CQC7 immediately afterwards. The AFCK was soo much more comfortable.

Tag

An excellent question.

My suggestion.  Don't use an AUG for the class.  They are tough and reliable, but mags are expensive, triggers are not that good and can't be replaced with something better, and weak side firing is difficult to impossible.  If you are reading this here, you probably figured that out already.



I'm pretty sure you mean Pearl Izumi.  Bike gloves.

Some good stuff in here.

I added:
Surefire M511a for AR
Insight UTL taclight for USP
More spare parts

I dumped:
JP "match" trigger
My DPMS AR
My Olympic AR
Vertical foregrips

The Main Item I ditched was the [b]Giles Tactical sling[/b] in favor of the silent two point job!

My patrol rifle instructor didn't feel they were necessary for anyone, unless you are making entry into a building (i.e. swat guys)

I was the only guy in my next class who didn't have a gimmick sling!  That instructor liked them, but I prefer simple.

I took General Defensive Rifle from InSights last month and learned a lot. The guys with the most stuff on their guns had the most stuff to go wrong. Flip up sights, cheap optics, bad scope mounts, cheap lights, crappy light mounts and "tactical" slings all went down sometime during the course.

For a home defense rifle all you need is good fixed sights, a standard carry sling, a good light and a reload.

I'd like to add a battlegrip and a light to my Bushmaster. A bunch of mags and a good way to quickly load them is always a good idea too.

Spare parts and a cleaning kit are mandatory.

Dress for conditions and take plenty of water.

-Luther

tag!

No mention of extractor doughnuts and flash suppressors. I'm shocked! What about barrel lengths? Ambi-saftey?

Tagged

Any advice on what tactical sling worked out best?

Kisara, providing you're taking a class from a descent instructor, you're going to have a blast no matter what.

Something to keep in mind about gear selection and taking a class. I've seen a ton of people show up to classes with first class gear that they have never ever used. One guy came to the range one time with the box his gear came shipped in. He hadnt even opened it or installed it yet. Worse yet, it was a sighting system, so it wasnt zeroed.

This more than anything else I have noticed has been the main reason people have had problems with their gear. They have never used it before. The class is not the best place to be learning about your gear, how well it works in general, how well it works for you in specific, or even if it works at all. Having problems with your gear will take away from what you may learn otherwise if you were allowed to pay attention to the instruction rather than constantly adjusting your set up. This holds true from everything to your footwear to your eyewear and everything in between.

I recall a guy looking at my rig on the first dsay of the class. A total stranger no less. He went on and one about how he preffers a simple light rig and how he had his set up just the way he wanted it. Same guy had problems all weekend with extraction and mags.

Point is, the chain breaks at the weakest link. Always. Sometimes the weakest link is the gear you choose. Many times the weakest link is ourselves and our inability to use the ggear we've selected.

Big problem is the only way to really find out about all of this is to go to a class or an action type shooting event. Its one of the only environments that will have you running around, crawling in dirt, mud, sand, snow, rain, shooting when the sun is in your eyes to when there's abosolutely no light at all, in hot conditions, in cold conditions, in dry conditions, in wet conditions etc. But doing so will soon let you know what it is that you need to reconfigure or change completely. When you've had the opportunity to do so, you'll get a system thats comfortable to you and that works for you. And in the end you'll be at ease with it and, strange as it may sound, intimate with it in the sense that you know just whats where, exactly how it works, just when to use it etc.

In the end, at a good class, you should have a lot of fun, learn a lot about yourself, your rig, other shooters, the instructors etc. Its up to the instructors to do their part to make sure this happens. Its up to you to come ready and prepared. Oh, and a good class should also leave you exhausted!

Wes, I had an awesome time at the last class I took, it was given by Bill Jeans. A bunch of FDCC guys went. Needless to say, 4 out of 5 of us had some pretty tricked rigs. Needless to say, all the gear and all the rigs ran smooth as butter. Couldnt ask for more. Dirk Pitt had an issue with a new pair of Hatch knee pads (rivet busted) but other than that, not a complaint. Here's a couple pics!

Standing l-r; AEM, Dirk_Pitt, CS223. Kneeling; me, Bill, M4Real.
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/pd6551931ea5e07ffa3fc7932636028ff/fb05ece3.jpg[/img]

Me running to cover on one of the team drills. Me and M4Real ran this one together and smoked it!
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p371b339b1c94596c023b84c328670f98/fb05d932.jpg[/img]

Near to far; AEM, Dirk_Pitt, M4Real and me with Bill behind
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p01f0d4f6fa1a6a9d879a5ce28e1a504a/fd013b1d.jpg[/img]

Late may, early june gopher shooting in montana must be just like one of these classes!

I've taken three carbine classes, as well as precision rifle and pistol classes.

For the carbine classes, I started with:
14.5" Bushy M4 flat-top
DPMS BUIS
Aimpoint Comp M
Arms #22M68 with spacer, mounted on the receiver
Giles tactical sling
rollerblade elbow and knee pads
standard ear muffs

I did not wear gloves the first class. I should have.

By the end of the 3rd carbine class, I had:

swapped DPMS BUIS for ARMS #40
added GG&G scout rail to move the Aimpoint forward - removed ARMS spacer
Hatch elbow and knee pads
Pro-Ears Pro-Tac electronic ear muffs
Hatch Kevlar shooter gloves - they're like flight gloves but have short cuffs

Didn't really need the tactical sling because we were taught hasty carry, the Gunsite way.

Good thing I took a backup rifle to all classes because one class I broke a charging handle. It took a few minutes to swap it out and get me back shooting again.

Regarding ammo, Olympic sucked. First time I had used it was at one of the classes. I had a bunch of FTFs so I dumped it and used milspec M193 for the rest of the day with no further problems. Valuable lesson learned there.

I used the side pockets in a pair of BDUs to dump empty mags, but a dump pouch would be a good idea.

Take several pairs of good shooting glasses, and be sure to have one with clear lenses. I wore Gargoyles with dark lenses one class, then it got overcast so I went to the truck and grabbed the clear lenses. Once I forgot I was wearing my regular sunglasses and the top part of the frame blocked my view when shooting. Another trip to the truck to switch to shooting glasses. Did I mention to have several pairs of good shooting glasses?

I am now rethinking the Hatch elbow pads. I took a precision rifle class a few weeks ago and after two days of shooting I came home with a scraped left elbow. There's still a big scab on it.

Don't forget the canteen, bottled water, energy bars, sunscreen, hat, etc. Most of this stuff has already been mentioned.

Big Bear,



Please elaborate.  What is "hasty carry" ?

[url=http://www.cqbsolutions.com/hc.htm]Hasty Carry[/url]

You know, that stuff from the time when slings were first invented [;)]

Some people use a modified SAW box that has a slit in the top. Head over to pre-ban.com's BOB Oracle if you like, that's where I got the info from.

Don't have one, though.

Finally, a thread that has raised my intelligence level.

Thank you.  [hail]

[b]One per year! whether we need it or not![/b]

Mark, you ever make whatever Im drinkin come out my nose