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Posted: 8/12/2003 12:58:18 AM EDT
[#1]
For the very reasons you pointed out about the military, I dont think any one of use has been willing to torture test the theory.
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Posted: 8/12/2003 3:21:20 AM EDT
[#2]
Let me put forth an assessment. I propose that the M16 is the first US issued disposable rifle. Unlike past rifles, this one is not meant to last a century (like the 03 or Garand) but rather just long enough that we would develop a replacement that is better. (So much for planning) They are cheap to manufacture. Hot running M16s (lots of auto firing)will wear out most parts in about the same number of rounds. Run it dry and I doubt that it will suffer much. It was not meant to last and so who cares? Responses?
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Posted: 8/12/2003 3:28:50 AM EDT
[#3]
They are cheap to manufacture. You are kidding, right? I'd love to compare the production costs of the M16 to something like an AK. I'd bet the M16 is one of the most expensive rifles on the planet to make, especially when the cost of the high tech infrastructure is taken into account. You don't make M16s without aluminum foundries/forgings and CNC equipment. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 5:13:23 AM EDT
[#4]
Just a data point...
While attending Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle classes, some people had stoppages. Clint and the instructors encouraged everyone to lubricate their rifles more. They said, "You can get away with running a dry rifle at home on the range, but running them hard like we do here, you better put some extra lube or they will quit on you." Experience bore this out. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 7:06:57 AM EDT
[#5]
I used to run my gun VERY wet, especially around the locking lugs and cam pin. I found after a lot of rounds and no cleaning that the blown back carbon stuck to the lube on the bolt and became a black sludge.
I could actually feel the gun cycling slower which resulted in fail to feeds. I'm now a minimalist with lube in my AR. I haven't gotten to torture test it this way yet but a dry gun has got to work better and longer than one that is gummed up and full of sand magnet. Most parts have a dry lube coatign from the factory anyway, so I dont think it is that big of a deal. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 9:04:36 AM EDT
[#6]
I believe i've been unintentionally running my ARs dry for a long time.
See what happened, i used to clean and lube all my guns as soon as i got home from the range. Then putting them away in the bushmaster hard case with the infamous foam lining. What i didn't realize was that, that foam lining would suck out all the lube and leave me with a bone dry gun (i had a post about this a while ago). Anyways, i'm now in the market for a safe...Sorry i didn't mean to hijack your tread, i just now realized that i did. Anyway, i haven't noticed any performance differences so far, despite all the dry running. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 9:11:31 AM EDT
[#7]
I agree that the AK is a cheap rifle to build but I did say US issued. When used to make a quantity of arms none of the machines you mention is expensive, in fact, it probably saves a lot of money to use a CNC machine rather than having a skilled machinest do the work. Based on inflation, the Garand that cost $100 to build in 1936 (estimated costs)would cost $1317 today. Makes the M16 an absolute bargain. An M14 that cost $165 to the government in 1954 would cost $1115 today. (note that this is what an M1A does cost today.)
I am not kidding, the M16 is cheap to build. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 10:01:35 AM EDT
[#8]
If the bolt and carrier get dry you will get jams. Especially in full auto.
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Posted: 8/12/2003 10:34:35 AM EDT
[#9]
What do you think should be oiled and in what spots?
I used to run my 1911 IDPA gun sloppy wet with oil and never had a problem. When I started to carry it I found the oil attracted a ton of lint, dust and other crap. I now carry a gun w/o a drop of oil on it. I have thousands of rounds through a dry 1911 w/o any problems. I don't have as much trigger time with an AR/M-16, so I'd appreciate what you guys find works best. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 11:23:10 AM EDT
[#10]
To JDMCOMP just remember that today just because springfield charges what it would cost to produce the M14 today does not mean its made the same way,springfield uses a casting for its M1A and M1 so it dosent take much machining back then the M14 receivers were machined by skilled machinists from a 12 pound forged steel billet so by todays standards if sringfield did that it would cost 800 to 1000 just fore the receiver driving the cost to 17 or 1800 per rifle and if they made em like that id spend the money and buy one,its BS that the M16 was not meant to last the israelis have alot that are 30 years old and still kicking keeping them in good repair .check out this site to see some well used and very old and seviceable 653 carbines at www.isayeret.com,the AR does last.
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Posted: 8/12/2003 12:14:29 PM EDT
[#11]
On the topic of dry lubes, I picked up a can of [url=http://www.jetlubecanada.com/lmm.html]Moly-Mist[/url] awhile ago for some other project and it has been sitting in the back of the closet ever since. This discussion of running AR's dry made me remember about the can - just wondering if anybody has tried anything like this on their AR's.
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Posted: 8/12/2003 1:11:22 PM EDT
[#12]
I have run both my varminter and my carbine with nothing but remington drilube. I have never had any problems with either. I however can not run them full auto, so I cant say if it would preform well under such conditions.
I also love to use it to lube my carry pistols, I don't have the lint problem that was mentioned before. All in all I am a big fan of drilube and recommend at least trying some. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 1:31:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Sorry for dragging this up and all of the skeletons that come with it but isn't that why a lube like Militec or FP-10 would be an advantage.
You can treat your weapon with these lubes and they bind to the metal (as advertised, Having used it I tend to believe it). Then you can completely wipe off all excess lube, and the part still remain slick and perform well and not attract dust or sand. It would be easy to treat the weapons with this lube also due to the fact that it's 140 degrees in Bagdad (ouch). |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 1:36:50 PM EDT
[#14]
I run mine dry all the time now. I have a RDIAS on a 7.5 inch and it runs like a scaleded dog all day long thousands of rounds. I used to lube like a porno queen but stopped because of the crud that would get in the bolt and every place else....
I use brake cleaner to clean after scrubbing it with clp bolt etc. I have even gone so far as to use engine degreaser and a hose to clean my AR after many many rounds down the pipe... Now running dry it stay clean longer much longer and most of the time it wipes clean. I do put 1 drop in the bolt carrier gas ring hole and thats it. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 2:15:27 PM EDT
[#15]
What do you think should be oiled and in what spots? Anything that can corrode gets a film of CLP for protective purposes and then gets wiped until it appears absolutely dry. The only parts that get a visible film of CLP are the rails on the bolt carrier, the bolt and the cam pin. Sorry for dragging this up and all of the skeletons that come with it but isn't that why a lube like Militec or FP-10 would be an advantage. FP-10 is a CLP just like Breakfree. Then you can completely wipe off all excess lube, and the part still remain slick You can do this with CLP too, although people rarely do for some reason; but CLP will lubricate even when no film is visible to the naked eye. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 2:26:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: What do you think should be oiled and in what spots? Anything that can corrode gets a film of CLP for protective purposes and then gets wiped until it appears absolutely dry. The only parts that get a visible film of CLP are the rails on the bolt carrier, the bolt and the cam pin. Sorry for dragging this up and all of the skeletons that come with it but isn't that why a lube like Militec or FP-10 would be an advantage. FP-10 is a CLP just like Breakfree. Then you can completely wipe off all excess lube, and the part still remain slick You can do this with CLP too, although people rarely do for some reason; but CLP will lubricate even when no film is visible to the naked eye. According to the people at FP-10 it is a CLP that contains synthetic polymers(similar to the ones in Militec-1) that bind to metal better than regular break-free and lube/and protect(friction-wise) better than break-free. I believe FP-10 also claims corrosion resistance. |
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Posted: 8/12/2003 4:01:41 PM EDT
[#17]
There are many 50 year old cars on the streets in Cuba and that proves absolutely nothing. Nothing wrong with a properly made cast reciever as Ruger has done it for years. Your point about Springfield just furthers my point that the M16 is the low cost solution. No harm in knowing the basis for a particular rifle, I own two 15s and a 10 myself. I also own a beautiful 03, a Garand and an M1A I have had for more years then I care to count. My first hand comparison tells me that the AR is a high tech solution but lacks the quality, heft, feel and beauty of its earlier cousins. Hell, when they first passed them out to the Army we were told not even to bother cleaning them.
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Posted: 8/12/2003 5:59:45 PM EDT
[#18]
I run my AR's with just a very light dressing of TW25B on the bolt carrier and bolt. When I mean light I put a small dab in my hand, rub hands together and wipe bolt and carrier. You can barely teel is is lubed at all. Carbon seems to just wipe off and not one problem.
Bore and chamber are cleaned with Hoppes then lubed with Militec-1 or FP-10 whichever free sample bottle I have on the bench at the time. Outside is wiped down with Sentry Solutions Marine Tuff Cloth. Dang, I sound like an ad here......LOL! |
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Posted: 8/14/2003 9:43:30 AM EDT
[#19]
I use Bore-tech teflon dry lube on every firearm I own and have never had any problems. It stays on the metal forever, i renew the lube about every 500 rounds.
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