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Posted: 5/31/2003 4:16:14 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: These three rounds are "close". Typically "wildcats" don't survive, and in this case there are three. I suspect only one will survive and be commercially successful. Which one do you prefer? Which one do you think will survive and why? I vote for the 458 Socom. I think it is better thought out round, I like the case design (necked) better. Bullets are readily available in many sizes as are reloading tools. Completed rounds are available through Corbon. The original designer (Marty W) is very knowledgeable and quite supportive (so is Tromix). I would tend to agree except I am still waiting for the ten boxes of .458 SOCOM that I ordered from Corbon back in March. Thanks to MartytW, I now have some brass to load. |
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Posted: 5/31/2003 4:24:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Thanks to MartytW, I now have some brass to load. I'll forgive that comment for the moment. |
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Posted: 5/31/2003 4:27:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Honestly, I am willing to bet the 458 SOCOM will be more of a cult favorite vice the commercial success described.
The Beowulf is already commericially successful. Impact Guns, Cabela's and several other dealers have made this a very highly exposed round. I think the 458 SOCOM has some corners to turn and then there will be some more success to come. I think L-W's burning a few too many bridges in the past will come back to haunt them. It excluded me as a candidate. There are many, many others. Ed |
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Posted: 5/31/2003 4:35:24 PM EDT
[#4]
SSK makes uppers as well. They are VERY, VERY expesive though.
Maybe somebody other than Corbon will step up to the loaded ammo plate....... OH god please let someone else step up. |
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Posted: 5/31/2003 5:41:48 PM EDT
[#5]
I think the LW .499 will come out on top. Not based on performance. Just the Coast Guard just contracted to them and they are one of the biggest units in the new Home Land Defense Dept. I suspect Customs, and Border patrol will follow suit.
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Posted: 5/31/2003 7:20:43 PM EDT
[#6]
I dont know about the rest of the country, but the 50 Beowolf is becoming common in WI,MI, and Indiana (midwest). Possibly because of the ease of availability through Cabelas. Ammunition is quite accesable and on the shelf in a number of shops in WI and IL. We do a fair amount of tactical training with the M4/M16 system and see some 50 Beowolfs (perimeter,sentry etc) but have never seen a LW499 or 458 anything. We have 700+ rounds through each of our 3 uppers without a hiccup. Accuracy 2-3 moa with comp ml and 334 gr. Simple.
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Posted: 5/31/2003 7:49:02 PM EDT
[#7]
I shot a 458 Socom today. I loved it. I have not shot the others. I don't reload right now so I would have to think hard before buying one of the Socom uppers.
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Posted: 5/31/2003 9:18:06 PM EDT
[#8]
If I ever get this ammo thing resolved .... [whacko]
Ed - I think Raptor was referring to the fact that he bought some of the brass-stash I have and that he satisfied his brass needs that way. Don't think he was meaning to detract from your brass GP efforts. Remind me to use a different ammo company the next time ... M |
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Posted: 5/31/2003 9:32:14 PM EDT
[#9]
MartyW,
My son and I both loved shooting the Socom (courtesy of HoleShot4). My son wants me to get one. Of course he's 12 and doesn't have a job [:}], but I was curious if there are any left from the group buy and what the price would be. If the ammo thing gets worked out I might be interested. We were shooting pins at 50 yds today and there was, shall we say, a noticeable difference in the effect. Bob |
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Posted: 6/1/2003 7:41:15 AM EDT
[#10]
I think they will all survive to some degree or other. The only one type classified is the .499 so that is the one the military will be using.
I was at a shoot on Saturday and there were some LW's there (4 I think). There was also a lot of class 3 stuff but the LW's were the stars. One of the guys had a beowulf and said after seeing and shooting the LW, he wished he'd brought one. In my opinion, the market is big enough for all three, I'm still torn between the 458 and the 499 and will go with a complete weapon rather than just an upper. Watch this space. Another thought: It remains to be seen as to whether any of the big boys pick up on one of these calibers. That would be a deciding factor in which one takes the biggest slice of the market. |
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Posted: 6/1/2003 9:59:08 AM EDT
[#11]
I bought the .458 SOCOM without giving the matter a whole lot of thought. After buying it however, it seems to me to be the best choice. The availability of a wide range of bullets does it for me. Of course we currently don't have a good supply of ammo. This will keep the caliber in the more specialized class. Only people willing to jump through many hoops can currently shoot it.
I also think that any of these three calibers is the way to go if you are going to suppress over something like the .300 Wisper. If I have to drop muzzle velocity down to subsonic levels, I want a big chunk of lead to go with it. |
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Posted: 6/1/2003 4:57:21 PM EDT
[#12]
"Honestly, I am willing to bet the 458 SOCOM will be more of a cult favorite vice the commercial success described (Shivan458)"
The "cult" side is interesting - I guess that so many people will like the round that it will go on. Being different is often sought and not necessarily a bad thing in this case. Alternatively, as suggested, more sources of ammo may help as well. For some reason, which I cannot justify, I am leery about the LW sudden success. But then again, what do I really know about them - nothing. |
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Posted: 6/1/2003 5:30:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Funny you should pose this question, as I just decided on the 458 Socom, over the other two, and ordered an upper on Friday. My choice came down to bullet selection, with fingers crossed for brass. I would never consider a round for myself that had only one supplier of bullets and brass (.499). As to the Beowulf, again the limited choice of bullets lead me to the 458. With regard to brass, if CorBon does not get it together, I could, as a last resort, have Starline do a custom run. Cheap, nope, but I would have brass forever. AS to my definition of "commercial success", I guess that would mean being able to open a Midway or Graff catalog, and find all three components, brass, bullets, and dies. This along with reloading data in a couple of published sources would equate to commercial success in my book. I suspect that the 50 is probably the closest to these achievements. But, and it's a big but, as a handloader, I do not really care. And more fundamentally, there are a LOT of other folks out there who do not care, either. As long as we can find the parts, we are in business. Personally, I hope all three become popular, and the makers of these weapons become wealthy. In the end, this is, imho, what this country is all about. Craig
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Posted: 6/1/2003 9:59:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Thanks to MartytW, I now have some brass to load. I'll forgive that comment for the moment. Being brass poor, Marty did me a great favor since I was unable to get in the first GP as I did not get my used Tromix .458 SOCOM until after the GP closed. Ed, if there is another GP you can count on me for at least a 1K order. [:D] |
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Posted: 6/2/2003 1:54:28 AM EDT
[#15]
My buddy bought a Beowulf while I managed to get a LWR .499. My friend is putting his Beowulf up for sale. Fit, finish, built-in muzzle brake, were plusses on the LWR. The Coast Guard contract is another plus to believe the LWR is going to be around for a while.
Cost (The Beowulf does cost less) and the ability to reload, seemed to be the only advantages for the Beowulf. And if you don't reload, the Beowulf ammo is more expensive than LWR. My 2 cents. Gerry |
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Posted: 6/2/2003 5:23:44 AM EDT
[#16]
The LW has 4 (5 inc AP) ammo choices at the moment;
300 gr training. 300 gr duty. Both lead free. 325 gr speer, jacketed hollow point (cheap). 385 gr Remington, bonded core HP. I understand that more are on the way. I've shot the first two and the 385 gr and they are all outstanding. The 325 gr, I haven't shot in the current configuration (I have shot it in 50 beowulf and the earlier 499) but I understand it performs well and due to its shorter length is good to 175 to 200 yards. |
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Posted: 6/2/2003 6:03:24 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: My buddy bought a Beowulf while I managed to get a LWR .499. My friend is putting his Beowulf up for sale. Fit, finish, built-in muzzle brake, were plusses on the LWR. The Coast Guard contract is another plus to believe the LWR is going to be around for a while. Cost (The Beowulf does cost less) and the ability to reload, seemed to be the only advantages for the Beowulf. And if you don't reload, the Beowulf ammo is more expensive than LWR. My 2 cents. Gerry Not sure what you paid for your upper, or entire gun, but at $200 less for the Beowulf upper you'd be $200 ahead on ammo initially. Just my random thought...new uppers are going for $895 now. |
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Posted: 6/2/2003 6:14:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Not if you include the $180 muzzle break from beowulf. Puts them pretty much at the same price then.
If you start to shoot the things, then the price savings come in on the factory ammo. But only the factory ammo. With the 458, the ability to reload and the projectile availability makes the package very attractive because I believe, the 458 factory loads are the most expensive? Correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 5:29:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Probably a minor thing, but the personalized attention and custom work provided by Tromix and TeppoJutsu appealed to me more than Alexander Arms or Leitner-Wise. After all, where else could you get a pink upper with green polka-dots, a cup holder and fuzzy dice?
All kidding aside, I understand that it's a business for everyone involved, but L-W's product copy seemed to big on the "we did this, we spent this" speil and Alexander Arms doesn't seem really interested in talking to the non-LE consumer directly. When dealing with a "Wildcat", it's nice to know you can contact the developer directly for help. Marty has made himself more than available, even helping people with topics outside the scope of his business. Like I said, it may just be me, but I think (in the current economy) this will have a longer lasting effect than most realize. It's all about personalized attention nowdays. Then again, I'm usually wrong. |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 6:41:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Not if you include the $180 muzzle break from beowulf. Puts them pretty much at the same price then. If you start to shoot the things, then the price savings come in on the factory ammo. But only the factory ammo. With the 458, the ability to reload and the projectile availability makes the package very attractive because I believe, the 458 factory loads are the most expensive? Correct me if I'm wrong. I won't speak on direct knowledge of the muzzle brakes of the Beowulf and L-W, but both Tony Rumore and Marty ter Weeme have claimed that the muzzle brake on the 458 was almost non-effective. In shooting the 458 SOCOM with a match grade barrel with no muzzle device at all I can tell you that the muzzle brake on semi-auto fire is not even a consideration for me. It just isn't that stout or uncontrollable. L-W offered the same upper at a lower price, then suddenly jacked the price up on the same upper. Which squarely set them $200 above the Beowulf upper. Beowulf and L-W ammo is within $1-$2/20 of each other, so even if it is .10 cents more per round on the Beowulf ammo, that is still 2000 rounds I'd have to buy to be behind the curve with the Beowulf. The reloadable 458 SOCOM with inexpensive rifle bullets is the key. I think I am about $300 in, in reloading supplies but that will cover several calibers....444 Marlin included.[shock] I think frisco's breakdown of costs, put him @ .66 cents per round on one reload, and as low as .58 cents per round if the brass was reusable. Sounds good to me. |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 7:07:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Yep...about .58/round for the Socom if I get at least five reloads per case (I'm expecting more like ten since I underload my rounds!).
Since I'm already setup for reloading, this is a no brainer. I'm just awating the new dies to get my RCBS 2000 up and running for the 458! |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 7:09:37 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: My buddy bought a Beowulf while I managed to get a LWR .499. My friend is putting his Beowulf up for sale. Fit, finish, built-in muzzle brake, were plusses on the LWR. The Coast Guard contract is another plus to believe the LWR is going to be around for a while. Cost (The Beowulf does cost less) and the ability to reload, seemed to be the only advantages for the Beowulf. And if you don't reload, the Beowulf ammo is more expensive than LWR. My 2 cents. Gerry Not sure what you paid for your upper, or entire gun, but at $200 less for the Beowulf upper you'd be $200 ahead on ammo initially. Just my random thought...new uppers are going for $895 now. I went into my local shop the other day and he said the Beowulf upper(I'm unsure if it had a brake on it or not) was $600.00. I was seriously considering buying it. Plus right now they have a 15% sale goin on now. That comes to approx. $555.00 with NYsales tax. Is this a decent deal?? |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 7:16:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Excelent deal on that Beowulf, Cabela's has them for $620 +S&H. I am goin Beowulf myself since I just gotta have a .50 (Eliminates SOCOM) and Alexander Arms seems to have better customer supports over L-W , especially since I plan on reloading.
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Posted: 6/3/2003 7:27:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My buddy bought a Beowulf while I managed to get a LWR .499. My friend is putting his Beowulf up for sale. Fit, finish, built-in muzzle brake, were plusses on the LWR. The Coast Guard contract is another plus to believe the LWR is going to be around for a while. Cost (The Beowulf does cost less) and the ability to reload, seemed to be the only advantages for the Beowulf. And if you don't reload, the Beowulf ammo is more expensive than LWR. My 2 cents. Gerry Not sure what you paid for your upper, or entire gun, but at $200 less for the Beowulf upper you'd be $200 ahead on ammo initially. Just my random thought...new uppers are going for $895 now. I went into my local shop the other day and he said the Beowulf upper(I'm unsure if it had a brake on it or not) was $600.00. I was seriously considering buying it. Plus right now they have a 15% sale goin on now. That comes to approx. $555.00 with NYsales tax. Is this a decent deal?? Assuming that upper is new, that is a great deal on the Beowulf. [bounce] |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 8:22:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Is LW an off-shoot of Alexander Arms (originally from the UK)?
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Posted: 6/3/2003 9:11:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Is LW an off-shoot of Alexander Arms (originally from the UK)? I think it's the other way around. My understanding was that the Alexander Arms guys split off from Leitner-Wise and formed A.A., then managed to get their product on the market first. |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 9:48:29 AM EDT
[#27]
You're right. Bill Alexander and Mark Worthington worked for a UK subsidiary of L-W. After the 2000 Shot Show, the pair disappeared and reappeared as Alexander Arms a couple of years later. Having seen the L-W shot show prototype and the beowulf, they are identical. The .499 is different.
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Posted: 6/3/2003 12:11:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: The .499 is [red]slightly[/red]different. [;D] |
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Posted: 6/3/2003 1:44:36 PM EDT
[#29]
LOL
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Posted: 6/3/2003 2:03:55 PM EDT
[#30]
What about .50AE? It seems to be readily available and relatively reasonably priced and it's not limited to AR-15s. Is it a markedly less powerful round, or is there some other reason why it gets left out of these discussions?
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Posted: 6/3/2003 2:32:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: What about .50AE? It seems to be readily available and relatively reasonably priced and it's not limited to AR-15s. Is it a markedly less powerful round, or is there some other reason why it gets left out of these discussions? John: The reason I leave it out is the modified mags. It adds a level of complexity to getting a "runs like a top" weapon. Just my .02. Ed |
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Posted: 6/13/2003 5:00:58 PM EDT
[#32]
I think there is room in the market for all 3 to survive, though it would not surprize me to see the field drop to two.
After all, if small runs of brass can be made for one, then they can be made for all three. The new S&W .500 magnum will also increase interest in the .50 caliber weapons. Plenty of bullets are already available for the .458 SOCOM. I own the Beowulf, but looked long and hard at the .458. I am very happy with my choice, but I probably would have been just as happy with either one of the other two. |
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Posted: 8/17/2003 9:18:21 AM EDT
[#33]
I think that anyone basing their purchase of the LW .499, because it has a Coast Guard contract, would be making a mistake. The LW .499 was tested at a local range, near Camp Lejeune, N.C., by the Coast Guard. Initial reactions were very favorable. However, as of two days ago, I was told they had lost their Coast Guard contract because of the company's inability to resolve unspecified problems. I don't know if it was quality control, or ramping up manufacturing capacity, but this may explain why uppers are turning up all of a sudden.
YMMV. |
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Posted: 8/17/2003 2:03:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Wrong as usual! Coast Guard just ordered more ammo from LW - not something you do if you are cancelling a contract. Rifles and uppers on the market are commercial (they release about 250 a month - the rest is military production). LW is developing more products for the USCG at this time.
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Posted: 8/17/2003 2:09:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: [red]Wrong as usual![/red] Coast Guard just ordered more ammo from LW - not something you do if you are cancelling a contract. Rifles and uppers on the market are commercial (they release about 250 a month - the rest is military production). LW is developing more products for the USCG at this time. With 89 posts I doubt the guy has posted much to be greeted so abrubtly..... Maybe you should relax a bit.....hmm??? [beer] |
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Posted: 8/17/2003 3:46:23 PM EDT
[#36]
I think he doth protest too much.
My information came from a retired Marine Corps LtCol. who was involved in the testing. He doesn't have a dog in this fight. He did, however, have to threaten legal action to get a refund on an upper they coudn't seem to deliver to him. |
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Posted: 8/20/2003 3:00:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Actually, this is a continuing thread that greatly interests me, I'm actually very interested in the development and evolution of the AR15. I work with groups who develop special weapons, not just the big bores but other interesting gear too. There is a lot of rumor and talk going on not just about the .499 the .458 and the .50 Beowulf and a lot of it is ill-informed BS.
In point of fact, I've shot on the range you are talking about which is just outside Camp Lejuene and I know the Lt Col too. Pity you didn't report the full story or he didn't tell you the full story, but he told me and it was confirmed by LW. Seems a salesman turned up and took a check off him for the LW.499. The salesman had him make the check out to him and not LW. Months go by and a very pissed Lt Col contacts LW demanding a refund for an undelivered 499 upper. They of course had no record of the sale nor the money, however they overnighted the refund check to him directly. At the time he was very pleased. Just my 02. BTW - looking forward to the new update of the Black Rifle coming out soon. That one is a must buy! |
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