I am not a heretic. I love my ARs. However, at the range, I may have been corrupted upon being handed a Robinson Armament M96 Expeditionary Rife. This rifle seemed to cycle in a way that my ARs do not. What do you think about this rifle, as it compares to the AR15.

It is heavier, not as ergonomic and not as versatile.  It is more robust and a bit more reliable.  The weight alone tuned me off.  Also no prebans available.

Kinda/sorta built on the Stoner 62/63 platform as opposed to direct roots back to the AR-10/AR-15.

Might be the best candidate out there to build a US made rifle in 7.62X39.  'Might' be.

(Bet that helps a lot !!)

I have never owned, or fired an M96.
That being said, I will now use my internet given right to offer an uniformed, unwarrented, and generally unwanted opinion:

The M96 uses a gas-tappet system similiar to the FAL. This theoretically would keep the upper a heckofalot cleaner then the AR-15. It also has an adjustable gas system which is something I really wish the AR-15 had. (It basically requires the gas-tappet system, though. Don't know how it could work with the AR-15's direct impingement system) This would eliminate the problems of underpowered rounds not cycling, and different evelvations affecting cycling. (Or rather, when you have these problems you can easily alleviate them)
Also, on the AR-10 there's lots of ammo (depending on weight, etc) in .308 and .243 that just won't cycle, so i've heard, so the non-adjustable gas system limits your ammo choices.

I like the concept of modulatiry. They are supposed to be offering a .308 rifle this summer, and I think they want to develop some sort of modular magazine system so that the lower can accept different magazines. This would allow alot more upper potential then the AR-15, as alot more caliburs are opened to you now.

Of course, I doubt they will ever get the manufacturer support that the AR gets, so it's up to them how many different types of uppers will be available.

I don't see paying the extra money for one over the AR, presently, as my AR-15 is plenty reliable. Also, the massive amounts of parts keeps things alot cheaper. One of their rifles costs close to twice what I paid in total for my bushy, and that's BEFORE fees or taxes.

Bottom line is, if they get a modular magazine system, and deliver the .308 upper, I will pretty much buy one. Until then....Well, doesn't do much that my AR-15 can't.

The M-96 will[red] NEVER[/red] be the rifle the AR/M-16 is in its' current form.

More reliable- I doubt it. (never seen it proven to me).
No pre-ban rifles.
Too much damn much money !
(especially for a post ban)
To heavy.
I have doubts as to their accuracy also,
the reports I've heard and seen ain't good.

Might be a good target rifle in a few years,
but nothing more.

Well, Scott, I normally wouldn't disagree with you - being the aforementioned uninformed person that I am - but you state you've never seen it proven that it's more reliable, so you clearly haven't seen it "disproven" either. I feel free to jump in at this point.

There are, in fact, logical reasons why it is more reliable then an AR-15. That's that it doesn't "shit where it eats", so it should go more rounds then an AR-15 before it needs cleaning. "Needs" being defined as "upper reciever so freakin' messy it won't cycle". I'm not sure if the AR-15 ever actually reaches that point, but I imagine it might.If it does, then the M96 would definatly go longer.
I personally believe overcleaning ruins more rifles then lots of shooting, so I don't clean my rifle every 100 rnds. plenty of people (who don't own one) have ASSURED me that my bushy will jam up after just 200 rnds, so I just smile.

Besides, the adjustable gas system is just cool. I do believe that in some temperatures and elevations, it just wouldn't cycle any more. (The AR-15 that is) and you can probably find ammo that won't cycle also,particularly if you wanna go hunting and don't want standard military rounds. That's why the FAL had and adjustable gas system, and that's why the M96 "borrowed" it too.

Too heavy: Can't disagree with you there.
Too expensive: Definatly.
No Preban Rifles: So? That doesn't reduce it's ability to shoot. While lots of people like prebans 'cause you can get cool stuff on them, I get rifles for shooting. And I'm sure the M96 shoots pretty well. And for plenty of people, I'm sure that's enough.

I have been shooting FALs and ARs for over 15yrs.
I have never seen an AR shut down from powder
fouling in the action, even my AR W/AAC Ranger
suppressor (and the increased backpressure
from that) dosen't get that dirty.

I once went to an open house at the National Guard Armory
in the town I live in.
The unit was letting kids shoot blanks in M-16s there.
Literally thousands of rounds were fired.
Those guns were FILTHY.
They simply shot some CLP in the ejection
port and were good to go.

Yes I would agree that the gas piston system
might be more reliable, it is in the FAL,
but the AR is a good system, or it would have
been scrapped years ago.

As far as the FAL once the gas reg is set,
the only time you touch it is when the rifle gets exceptionaly dirty and fouled.
Then you simply close it off.

I am not slamming the M-96.
I have just heard (and seen) too many bad things with them. ie pins walking out, barrels launching off
the reciever, quality control issues).
Possibly when the bugs get worked out it will be a
good rifle, till then I will stick to an AR.

I have never had any in spec ammo that would not work in an AR.
Commercial or military.
I have also shot them in extreme heat, it gets very hot
in TN in the summer, also cold gets cold too in winter.
I have drug them through lakes , ponds , streams, mud, they still work (as long as you keep the
trap door closed).
The AR is a good weapon, but having said that,
the FAL is still my favorite weapon.

As a side note, If they did work they would be a great rifle.
If they could get the weight down.
If I wanted a 9.5lb rifle it will be a FAL.

Read and seen.  I have one of the first ones. I will admit I had to lock tite the gun but only once. It is an excellent rifle, period. Barrel launching is BS. The bolt keeps it tight. Both my AR and M96 havent craped out yet or even hiccuped. So they are even except my AR is an A1 style and is 40 times lighter.
GG

 Well, I own an M96 Recon and have about twenty five hundred rounds through it ( I've had it about six weeks ) so allow me to give you the skinny on the weapon.

Ergonomics:  there is only ONE ergonomic issue with the M96 and that is the location of the safety lever.  Even though it is in the same place geometrically as an ar15 the width of the upper receiver prevents one from switching the weapon from safe to fire from the shooting position.  This is a severe issue that I have discussed ( and so have others ) with the manufacturer and the issue is being addressed.  Other than that the weapon is SUPERBLY ergonomic from the shooting and handling aspect.

Multiplicity ( of calibers ):  originally the M96 was supposed to have a 7.62X39mm conversion that used the ubiquitous AK 47 magazine.  Well, it worked about as well as the AR's in 7.62X39 ( maybe better...but still not all THAT good )so Robinson didn't offer it.  Interestingly when the design is put around solely 7.62X39 it it an awesome system also.  The same with the Knight 7.62X39 that is designed around the AK mag.

Modularity:  The cool thing about the 96 is that if major engineering advances come to part of the system you can just buy whatever module and replace it.   For instance, right now thw worst thing about the M96 isn't the safety, it is the lack of a manual bolt lock mechanism (there is an automatic one).  Once the mag well has been redesigned with a manual bolt lock I can send mine in towards another with that mod OR just cough up the cash and buy the mod....it really doesn't matter.  Another nice thing is, let's say somehow or another you dent the mag well...just buy a new one...no need to send the gun in.  Screw up the crown on the barrel? Bend it? ( I have no idea how, but it could happen) Pop a new one in.  Is it cheap? NO Easy?Yes.

 Another neat thing is theoretically one could build a mag well that takes Mini14 mags or some other mag. Custom barrels pop in lickity split..want a custom stock?  Pop it on. etc. etc. etc.....the M96 is like an erector set for adults....

 Reliability.  It is no secret to those of us who have good AR's that the AR is a damn reliable system...I have seen AR's that are so filthy they SHOULDN'T fire...yet they do.  A well built AR is pretty hard to beat.  I truly think the M96 has an even higher reliability potential.  If I have an issue with a particular lot of ammo not functioning in my gun due to low pressures...I just push more gas through the system by changing my gas regulator.  Is my gun sluggish because its filthy?  Then add a bit o' gas.  Is it a super hot day?  Is my ammo just a bit too toasty?  Then I turn down the gas.

 Toughness.  Ar's can take a beating.  I 've beat 'em, jumped up and drug 'em all over the place.  They are tough.  The M96 is made mostly of high grade stainless steel that has a proprietary nitride coat on top of that.  It's a REALLY tough feeling weapon.  I have more that enough confidence in it.  I would not hesitate to put it through the same paces that I have put M-16's through.  I do have one issue with the stock material...though I am sure it is very strong...I do wish the stocks at least felt a bit more rugged.  

 Is the M96 too heavy?  I don't know...if you have trouble lifting 8 pounds maybe you should take up macrame instead of shooting. [nuts]

 Accuracy:  mine is at least as accurate as my CAR15 and possibly as accurate as my SP1.  I have never really compared them closely.

 Every person who handled and shot my M96 at the last ARFCOM tannerite spectacular in AZ a few weeks back came away VERY impressed with it.
Once the necessary changes are implimented to bring it up to par with the ease of use factor of the AR15 it is going to be one heck of a weapon to contend with.  I do not think it will replace the AR in the near future..the AR is just too sweet....but I truly think that NO OTHER 5.56 gun out there will compare.

 If you want to learn how good or bad others think the M96 is go to the m96 discussion board at www.biggerhammer.net  Look down the thread and count the complaints and problem issues...then come back here and go to the trouble shooting page here and compare.

 I think the M96 has a little ways to go before it can eclipse the AR 15...the AR is a damn handy gun....in some ways it (the AR) can't be eclipsed because it is so damn handy...but I think that in the future, people who are looking for an ULTRA durable, ULTRA reliable, and very versatile weapon system will be turning to the M96.  I already have.

The M16 is a combat proven design.

The M96 is a new commercial design.

It's a nice rifle, but being made mostly of sheet metal stampings, it should retail for about $500-$600.

For that price, I might buy one. I won't even think about it at it's current price.

I think the Armalite AR180B has potential. A similar design at about half the price of the M96.

[image]http://www.robarm.com/images/RAV02%20RS%20330.jpg[/image]


Interesting.  I like the idea of being able to use the AK magazines and rounds, as so many are out there around the world.  I believe there was some development of an M4 platform which could use AK magazines - perhaps on the Quarterbore site a while back?  I would jump on that.

Anyway, good clip of the M96 in 7.62 full auto [url=http://www.robarm.com/images/BJ%20Full%20Auto%202.mpg]here[/url]

AR180B and and M96 = 2 differnt species.
GG

D.45,
what we're now seeing in the AR-180B is just the first in what will be a family of weapons. ArmaLite has just brought in one of the original engineers that worked on the AR-15 project to review the AR-180B program.  Be interesting to watch as this rifle develops.

Yes.

They are different species, but they have some similarities.
Stamped sheetmetal receiver, multi lugged rotating bolt, gas piston, uses M16 mags....

 My favorite trait of the new 180B is that it just snaps in half when you least expect it.  WOW...sign me up.

 I will spend 1500 bucks on a gun that works before I would spend 6 buck on one that doesn't.

 Robinson Armament dumps a LOT of time and effort into the manufacture of the M96...the quality of the design shows...if you've ever handled one you would know.

 Armalite took a great design that needed a wee bit of work and turned it into a cheap peice of junk....HOORAY!!!! I have seen them...I have handled them and I would shoot one but it seems they are "back ordered" at the moment. Lemme tell you THEY ARE CHEAP. Armalite's main concern is making money...NOT making money by making a quality product....and let me tell you THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

 I would gladly pit my M96 against a 180B...because I already know which gun would win.

Which one ?

how did I know that was gonna happen?

The M96 will win.  Period.

I too much rather have the M96 over the AR180B any day of the week!

Ahhhhh, the refreshing sound of common sense....thank you M4.

I guess the point I was trying to make is I think the M96 is over priced.
...or maybe I'm just a cheapskate.
I have a pre-ban Bushy,  Colt SP-1, and M1A, neither cost as much as an M96.

[b]I haven't heard anything about the AR180 snapping in half, can you elaborate.[/b]

I haven't seen an AR180B yet, but I was thinking about getting one.

 Yes, the M96 has a hefty price tag...I, too think the MSRP of around 1700 bucks is steep as hell.  I, too, believe that I paid a lot for mine at the price of 1350.  However when you see an M96 for 1750 bucks at a gunshop, you must remember that gunshop owners a trying to make up money wherever they can, the gun business ain't easy.  So if the market will bear the price, then so be it.  Also, some gun sales business owners just SUCK, make everyone else look bad, and are trying to rape you.  Caveat Emptor NOTE:  I said SOME.

 I can tell you from personal experience that Alex Robinson is a VERY cool guy who puts a SHITLOAD of time into making the M96 and trying his best to make it well.  From start to finish each lower has several hours of mantime in it.  The welding processes alone( which are VERY stringently controlled ) take two hours.  Is the M96 as perfected as the AR...not yet.  Will it be?  I think so.

 Mind you, guys, I still find the AR a much better general purpose gun.  It is light, handy, reliable and fun and because everybody and their brother makes one they are very affordable.  Had the Stoner64 lived ( a civilian version of the 63 that never got into production ) and the AR180 found a good home, these guns too would have developed to the point that the AR has developed...or at least close.  You can only have so many AR's ( I know people with nine or ten of them ) before ya wanna play with something different.  I would love it if Armalite made the AR180 the way it is supposed to be made (like in the sixties)...but they aren't going to.....EVER.  They want to make a cheap buck...period.  I think that is sad...It pisses me off that people give Alex Robinson a bunch of shit because he's REALLY trying to make a DAMN GOOD weapon system and, yes, he is charging for it.  The concept is this:  the best of his labor for the best of yours.  I think a lot of people want the very best of someone else's labor for little to nothing of theirs.  I find that akin to theft...maybe worse because of the self delusion involved that people think they deserve something they didn't earn.  Forgive me, I digress.
  Armalite is basically trying to sell people a PIECE OF CRAP for 750 bucks. I.E. for your 750 bucks you are getting a gun that will very possibly just plain BREAK on you and at the very worst moment. They have minimal time and labor in this thing and IT SHOWS.  Yet hoards of people are out licking the boots of those a$$holes that own and run Armalite and are just beggin to have MORE sh*t stuffed down their throats.  Yet for some reason Alex Robinson is the bad guy because even though his gun works (and works REALLY friggin good)it's expensive.

 Well, boys, here's the question of the ages:

 HOW MUCH IS YOUR LIFE WORTH TO YOU?  

 Mine is easily worth the 1350 I paid for my M96 or the X amount of bucks I have invested in the very few AR's that I own. ( where X is a seriously big number )

Are you referring to my post or my sig-line? [:D]

But seriously folks....

What and Where is the cheapest place to find me a M96?

dude, your sig line is a scream....

I was referring to your post, though.....

 The best way to find a 96 cheaply is either  look for a deal on the net and have an FFL transfer done or hope to find one in a shop for cheap.  At one of the local shops lately there was an unfired 1999/2000 model for $1000 bucks....BUT you would spend 300 for all of the newest upgrades so you're right back to 1300 bucks.   Just keep an eye out for deals and have a cool dealer willing to do an FFL transfer for you.
 Me, I would wait for the manual bolt lock mod to hit the market before I bought another one (or was a first time buyer)...the design is done they just haven't tooled for it yet.  Believe me I will be keeping my ear to the ground on that one.

But of course! If a gun doesnt have a pre-ban version then it is obviously a POS! [rolleyes]


I have found my friends M96 Recon to be every bit as accurate as my AR's. For some strange reason, he hasnt had all the pins coming loose and barrels flying off that have been mentioned. Only reason I dont have a Recon yet, is because I am focusing my $$ on finshing everything on my AR's, since they are what I know, and I cant afford to do both at once. When they are set like I want them, there is an M96 Recon in the plans. And yes, the price is a little high. I mean, who in their rightmind would pay $1300 or more for a rifle that doesnt do anything different than a similar rifle inthe same caliber. I mean really, could you imagine paying $1300 or more on an AR??

I wonder if the M96 is as accurate as you could make an AR-15 with a $700-$800 starting rifle and $1000 worth of custom accurizing and gunsmithing?  Air-gauged target barrel?  Compensators / muzzle brake?   Trigger job?  Action work?  Custom stock fitting?  Upgraded optics / sights?

If the AR can be had for $800 and the M96 for $1700 isn't this a valid point?

More like $1300 for a M96. Big boys play with exspensivee toys.
GG

LOL, OK.....

I guess my $900 two-stage 16"ss A2 is cheap junk :)

If I can get .75MOA from cheap junk - just consider me a full-fledged junkie :)

...and your point is?



...and the AR-15 is an old commercial design.




How do you come up with that estimate?



I have an M-96 Carbine.  It shoots sub MOA.  It has proven to be a solid reliable rifle.

here's an idea (that should be followed more often...):
if you OWN or have at least SHOT an M96, post your experiences and opinions.
if you have NOT shot one, it doesn't matter what you think, although you are completely free to post your OPINIONS on certain features you may or may not like.
i have handled one, seen the price tag, and passed.  they seem like great rifles, but an AR answers my needs at the moment.
'nuff said

I would tend to agree.

Well, Gentlemen,I have both and I love the designs of both.I just got the RECON with Tube stock and it is nice but heavy.But it is full of steel and the quality does show.If you buy one get one with a serial# starting with RA and you are assured of getting all the  improvements.I also am glad to support any upstart company putting out a quality product against the current political tide.

 I must agree that 62nd assassin pretty much hit it on the mark......Kudos, dude.

I love ARs ands M96s (dont own an M96 but have handled and shot one). Both are great rifles and the only real advantage to an AR is weight (but then again if you cant handle a 9 pound rifle should you really be shooting at all?), the availibilty of accessories and spare parts, and price. Price is the only thing between me and an M96.

Just one thing, is it not really worth buying because it doesnt have any pre-bans? I think not. When I want something scary I just slap a bayonet on my K31 Schmidt-Rubin. I might add that flash suppressors are highly overrated.

Now on to AR-180Bs. I dont think its very fair to compare a piece of k-rap to an M96. Armalite had a good idea when they tried to bring it back but really I would rather pay through the nose for something that works than get something half the price the "might" work. If they ever make an AR-180B WITHOUT a muzzle break WITH a chrome lined barrel and a steel lower I might buy one. But until then the M96 is VERY MUCH better choice, I mean lightyears better than a 180.

Edit my speeling is bad.

I had the opportuinity to shoot an M96 a couple months back.  I only got to shoot a few rounds, but it jammed.  This was shortly after the owner extolled it's reliability and talked some smack about the AR-15, one of which I was shooting at the time.  Ahh, the irony.  
That said, I don't think that my experience is enough to com

oops, sorry 'bout that. As I was saying:
That said, I don't think that my experience is enough to condemn the M96 out of hand.  Any rifle can jam, and it just happend that that particular rifle picked that time to jam.  It's just that it doesn't bring anything I deem important to the table for its price.  The role of the .223 carbine is taken by the AR-15, and if I had to drop a couple of grand on a completely new rifle, it'd be a AR-10 or other .30 battle rifle that extends my abilities beyond what a .223 can provide.  
As always, YMMV.

Hey if I had 7 grand Id buy a Mk11Mod0 (SR-25 plus acessories).

speaking of jamming....I am a big fan of the M1A and was extolling it's virtues to one of my buddies for months on end....one of which was it's phenomonal reliability....so we took it to the range one day so he could try it and on the SECOND ROUND HE FIRED the extractor snapped.  talk about humiliation.  turns out the chamber had a groove in it from the chambering process and springfield put it on the gun anyway.  this is typical of them.  amazingly that gun shot a lot of rounds before the extractor gave way that fateful afternoon. but what timing!!!!

yes, any gun can jam...some from bad ammo, many from bad magazines and some because of design or quality issues....just happens that way.

Well,I just took out the M96 Recon for 300 rounds of mostly Guatemalan IMG from 1986.This ammo was in lousy shape but the M96 ate it just fine,FWIW.Regards

I think that is a great way to think about it.