I just recently got into ARs (got my first one about 5 months ago and about to build my second).  There's this deer hunting freak (not a crack on deer hunters because I'm one, too - I'm just saying this dude starts drooling come deer season) that I work with.  He owns several guns - I just talked him into getting his 1st handgun.  But he saw a pic of my AR and made a comment like "who would need anything like that except some crazed lunatic".
Then my dad (who has always owned numerous guns) just asked this weekend, "what kind of person buys those (AR15s)?" - I was looking at Model 1 kits on his computer.  It kind of caugth me off-guard.  I guess he didn't think anything about my first one since I'm in law enforcement.  I really wished I had thought to go to his gun cabinet and pull out his Winchester .243 semi-auto deer rifle and say "what is the difference?! - and yours shoots a bigger bullet!".
I'm not going to even go into what my father-inlaw thinks about it. (another gun owner)
But I guarantee if I take it shooting with either one of them, they'd want to shoot it.  What's the deal!!???
Just a rant,
CR

There are a lot of weenies out there who think that the second amendment is about duck hunting and that they can own their shotgun and deer rifle and still sit on the sidelines of political correctness.

(Man, I'm glad the spell check caught my misspelling of weenies)

Jealousy.  [}:D]

Too many people take the liberal media at face value. The coverage of the DC sniper story should be a glaring example of the media perpetuating misinformation and just bald faced lies.

Shabo

If they have a problem with AR's, are they really pro-gun?z

Yeah, that would pretty much explain the guy at work and probably the father-inlaw - but my dad is what totally shocked me.  He gave me my first gun at 12 yrs old and let me buy my first pistol at 14.  He also use to shoot in pistol matches.  I'd think someone like that wouldn't have a problem with an AR.  Maybe that's from the jealousy factor that fizassist is talking about.  Maybe if I can get him to buy his own or help me with building my second.....
CR

Don't you know an AR has a soul and it's evil.  It jumps into peoples hands and makes them do terrible things.

When the DC snipers were caught, the initial charges to hold them till the investigation was over was gun charges. I can still remember the CNN newslady.  "Well at least we got that gun off the streets."

That's who we can thank.

People think you can defend yourself better with a hunting rifle...bunch of weirdos.

Same reactions here, even with the DPMS factory just 15 minutes away. Also the same reaction with hunters using the DPMS-owned range to sight in their conventional deer rifles. I'm one of those guys that starts preparring for deer season about a week after the previous one has ended. I'll be out there next November using a 6X45 chambered AR during the week-long event.

My father has always said he would never own an 'auto' because he watched his freind get shot in the face with one while stationed in Germany. Someone approached the 2 of them in a major city, raised a German pistol of some sort, and pulled the trigger. I have never understood the logic behind his thoughts. A loaded chamber is a loaded chamber. It makes no difference how it reloads. In fact, it seems to me that exposed-hammer firearms have been more dangerous than all other actions combined.

I can think of 2 incidents I've witnessed where an unwanted discharge was caused by a thumb that slipped while lowering the hammers on '94 Winchesters.

You will find most hunters misunderstand the meaning of the 2nd. In their mind it reads, "The Right to Keep and Bear DEER RIFLES". They forget the parts that explain how it is vital to the security of a free nation and has NOTHING to do with hunting.

I think it's this mindset that has led to all the NRA compromises over the years. Most of us could agree that hunters probably make up the largest portion of NRA memberships, yet there's probably little rallying done by most hunters to keep pistol-grips and high-cap magazines out of legislation.

The examples you gave, OPSO, mirror those I've witnessed as well, with dozens more.

I had a similar experiance with my dad a couple weeks ago. He had always owned several guns, handguns, shotguns, rifles. He liked to hunt. he even got me my first shotgun when i was 12.
I think he even had an SKS at one time (he explained it to me as a "chinese military rifle", i am pretty sure it was an SKS now that i look back)

When i got my AR a few weeks ago,I was excited to go and show him, since it was my first real, personal, firearm.

So I showed him my new rifle and he told me "You better put that up, it's illegal"

I was just like "huh? No it's not. It's perfectly legal to own"

He then informed me "Not with a thirty round clip it's not"  (In tennessee, 30 rounders are perfectly legal)

I tried to explain to him about the ban and all, but he basically blew me off.  *shrugs*

Anyways, i to find it amazing that so many people that own firearms are against AR's.
 You cant even hunt deer with an AR in tennessee, not because it holds to many rounds, but because the bullet is considered to small.

Apparently if a firearm looks mean, it must be mean.

I have to agree w/ Tom Jefferson on this one.  ARs are EVIL.  People who want to own and use them are thus, by affiliation, EVIL.  If God had wanted us to own ARs, he would have Borgified (I just made that word up) them onto our arms so we couldn't be denied their ownership by force of law.

Accepting the premise that high-powered, high-capacity semi-automatic rifles are EVIL, and that people who own them, shoot them, or enjoy them are somehow unbalanced or depraved, then one must also accept the premise that achieving GOOD requires disarmament.  Let's face it, people don't kill people, GUNS kill people.  If we just got rid of the guns, then flowers would spring from our ears and sunshine would never fail.  Utopia, here and now.

Man, it almost makes me want to join Sarah Brady's group, when I put it that way.

[Sigh.]  Oh well, back to reality.  What was the question again?

I remember the antis calling the AR15 PLASTIC TOY way before Glock came into the seen

Well, coming from an area of the U.S. where deer hunting is almost a cult religion (yeah, I know, I hunt too) I can tell you this from experience; you would be suprised at the number of people that are pro gun who dont know JACK about anything other than hunting rifles or shotguns.  If it aint bolt action or a pump 12 guage, they could care less about it. Lack of knowledge coupled with piss poor media that covers only the negative aspect of anyting that has to do with firearms, and you get individuals who think they are pro gun, who actually do all of us more harm than good.

This is why companies offer the 6X45 barrels for standard .223/5.56 AR15s. It allows owners in the states that require a minumum caliber of .24 to use them legally for hunting.

The 6mmX45 is a .223 necked-up to 6mm. Every part, including the magazines, stays the same. The only change is the barrel. I know Kurts Kustum carries these, as well as Les Baer and MANY others.

Then there's always the AR's that are commonly chambered in calibers like 7.62X39 and .308(AR10). I doubt there's a state in the country that doesn't allow these two calibers for hunting big game.

We have the minimum caliber law here in MN. We also cannot have magazines LOADED with more than 10 rounds. They wanted to eliminate 10+ rounders altogether, but there were tons of hunters using the old British Enfield rifles that protested, since these are 12-rounders, and very common around here.

Pro-gun may not be the most accurate term.  Pro-hunting I think would better fit.  "shall make no law abridging the right to hunt."  I think that's as pro-gun as they get, if they have to, they'll use their Marlin or their Win. Model 70 to defend themselves.

I can understand why fellow hunters look down or say who would want one of those because I was that way once. When I bought Mini-14 that got me interested in the "other rifles".

I now own my first AR and see in the future a need to build another.

My only explanation is lack of knowledge or experience is the answer to why they don't understand us...

We're excited for you [;)] welcome to the boards.

You know, I had the same question from some of my relatives. I explained that the plastic furniture didn't swell or ruin as easily as wood and that the barrel wasn't affected as a result.

I showed the the modular nature of the system that let me customize it (and they all know how I am really bad with tools).

I mentioned how it was a great little rifle and more reliable than any deer rifle because it had 30 years of government-sponsored reliability enhancements behind its design.

Then I showed them what it could do accuracy-wise... there wasn't anyone asking that question by the end of the show and tell session.

In this case, it wasn't any anti-gun sentiment at all - it was just ignorance. All they had ever used were traditional firearms and they didn't know any more about AR15s than what you would learn from watching Rambo or Die Hard. Naturally they had some misconceptions as a result (and the popular gun shop commando mythology they had all heard didn't do much to help here either).

In my opinion, the 'Black Rifle' is offensive to many because it's not rust-blue and walnut.

It is jarring for older shooters to go to a gun show and see so many of them, either on tables or slung with a '4-Sale sign' on them.

A trip to the range here in Oregon will find more AR-15's and clones than any other single type of rifle, particularly among target shooters and plinkers. (Along with huge piles of Wolf steel cases rusting away.)

Someone with better writing skills than I have had better come up with a good reason to explain these rifles, and our attraction for them.  To many non-shooters, and many shooters too, the AR-15 is so malevolent in its design and so oriented towards modern combat that they are horrified.  I don't advertise to my neighbors that I have one.

But if we are going to see the Assault Rifle Bill sunset, we had better articulate a reasonable position to the frightened public.
Just my .$02...

Join the NRA.

You know you are a gun nut when this gives a poetic vision.

Good post!

Kat,

Welcome, always good to see a fellow Tennesean on the board.

Those guys and their precious "hunting" rifles.... Wonder if they realize how long it will be before their scoped bolt action is deemed a "Long Range Sniper Weapon" and the shotgun a "Multiple Projectile Device"? I don't own a .50 cal (though I'd like to!) but I certainly support the rights of those Ma Duece shooters. Someday we'll all realize that firearms in general are what those pricks are after, albeit one step at a time. Remember "divide and conquer"?  

I have ment several people who have said very similar things to me.  They look at the gun and see an evil weapon.  Then I offer them a chance to get behind that "Evil"weapon and I have yet to have a single person who tried it not leave with a smile on there face.  Most even say that they want one now.  I think I may have even converted someone today [:D]

I am getting tired of people calling this rifle an evil weapon! Even my own mother call's it Evil and a terrorist rifle (even htough she knows the army uses them.) I can understand that some people are afraid of assault rifles even though i call them homeland defense rifles but when all else fail the media is the worst influence! just my 2 cents

Justin

The first firearm I ever shot was in the military and to tell you the truth I never thought about owning one. It was a tool used in a job and that was all. After military life, I grew to be a hunter and collector which is now a full blown hobby I take seriously, but the one thing that strikes me most is how difficult it was to find true information. Alot of what people learn is from hear say and passing on from one person to another which is often lacking and incorrect. I think it is a statement on how poorly we educate people about firearms in this country. Keep them "dumb and stupid" and it is much easier to control the masses; what they donn't know wonn't hurt them. Bias is built from people's preference but would you say there is no need for a Chevy or Ford or Dodge, etc. just because you donn't like one? Part of the debate comes from this arguement. A firearm is the same as any firearm; they all send a round downrange. Just different styles of form and operation. It's a choice and when it gets down to it , nobody should put down another's freedom of choice just because they donn't agree. And that goes for EVERYTHING as long as that choice doesn't adversely effect others.

I'd like to partially level blame on the candyassed nra.

Should have tried to educate everyone a LONG time ago..  now things have gotten way out of hand and will take a freakin miracle to swing the balance back in our favor.

yes, I'm an NRA life member, and Have written to the NRA and CALLED them to address this matter.

Actually the NRA has been trying to establish an educational program in the school systems as far back as the 1950's. Funding has always been brought up and the NRA even agreed to do it free of charge. Liberals donn't want to educate; they want to herd the masses. Keep pushing and do your "own" teaching when you can.

no... in teaching our own 'ranks' that "firearms is firearms"..  educating all 'branches' of firearms useage that the RKBA is not about hunting, sporting, shotguns... whatever...

Ditto

This thread really hits home.

I bought my Bushmaster AR in October 1998. I too was surprised by my father's negative reaction.

After buying the gun, I discovered that it had been sitting NIB at the dealer for sometime and the bolt was frozen solid. I called Bushmaster and they had me return the uppper for exchange. While waiting for the upper, I talked to several gun owner friends who stated their dislike for ARs.

I finally, got a chance to fire the gun on a snowy day in February, 99. I was alone at the range and had a blast. The next week, I was again at the range on a warm day. Several fellow gun members who saw me shooting told me of their dislike for the gun. The club's VP said that it wasn't against their rules but it gives the club a bad name.

About the same time, Klinton suggested gun registration. California was banning ARs. Then there was Columbine.

I felt the pressure and I foolishly sold the gun. BAD CHOICE!!!!

Now I am getting ready to buy a new Bushmaster. Boy, the prices have increased since 1998! This time I am in a different club and am willing to take the heat if we get a bad AW law next year.

I really wish that gun owners would stick together!

Boy do I miss my AR.

Philip

When I saw an original Armalite AR-15 (s/n #8 I believe) at the Springfield Armory Museum back in 1996, I thought it looked like a cheap plastic toy.  Modern AR's look much more formidable than the original.

You guys are either ignoring, or missing altogether, what’s going on [b]right [u]here[/u][/b] on this website.

Let me refresh your memories …. there are board members, replying in this thread even, that talk just as negatively, as in THE SAME MANNER, to their [I]fellow AR owners[/I], as those do that question why we have AR-15’s.  

Just find a thread with a picture posted of an AR with SIR/RAS, grip, optic, light, and the [b]“why do you need that sh*t”[/b] remarks will be right there, in the same context as these “why do you need that AR-15” comments.  

Sure, there’s good-natured ribbing in some of them, but there’s also those that don’t have any humor intended in them AT ALL.

You're going to convince fellow gun owners that AR-15's are okay?  Hell, we're talking sh*t to EACH OTHER!!

So, you think it sucks having a fellow gun owner talking about [I]your[/I] AR?  

Well, it’s PATHETIC to me to have a fellow AR owner and AR15.com board member(?!) talking SH*T about my AR, and on AR15.com even!


Chris

THERE ARE A LOT OF DUMB PEOPLE IN THE WORLD!

That should sum it up.  If they don't like our guns fine, but they should shut the fu*k up and keep their uneducated TV infuenced opinions to themselves.  

I just found out the owner of the local gun shop that I've been going to for the last 1 1/2 years is EXTREMELY anti semi-auto.  I told him that he's really missing out not stocking fun rifles. his reply to me was that he will never stock them because, Quote(I don't believe that any civilian has the right to own one of those) He even went on to say he doesn't even think that we should be able to own semi-pistols!  CAN YOU SAY DICK HEAD?  He didn't mention anything about auto loading shotguns?  Oh, thats right his sister a hardcore skeet/trap shooter, I guess that he made and exception about those.

Well now I'm in the process of finding a new place to buy all of my toys.  A new guy at my work advised me of one not too far away that has all kinds of semi's so I think that I'll have to check it out.

Anyone from south-central PA know of a good toy store?  

Excuse me on the spelling.

The problem is "ARs" and such are portrayed badly and singled out by the media.

I know people asked me why I wanted an 'AR". It was a gun I didn't have and I wanted (I was going to get a handgun but gun laws got in the way). I also got an AR-type rifle to tick off the antis.

So if you don't like all guns, you are not "pro-gun" in my book.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HUNT WITH A GUN (AND I DO) DOESN'T MAKE YOU PRO GUN!

CRC

Let me offer a little different perspective.  My uncle and granddad have a skewed perception of the AR because of the people we often find toting them (or SKS's, a few HK's, and once, a Steyr-Aug) on our fruit farms during deer season without having asked permission to hunt.  Typically, a few guys driving a likely-looking piece of timber, wearing BDU's and a plastic orange vest (to stay legal), who were either too lazy to ask for permission, or too bored with the lack of action on the nearby state land.  So in the minds of my family, not only have the AR-toters committed the transgression of trespass, but have left their signature on the deal with the get-up they wear and the weapon they carry.

Of course, not all AR owners are trespassers and poachers; likely not even a minute percentage.  It's ridiculous to make the leap of logic that someone who carries an AR is a game-law and property-law violater.

It is also ridiculous to ignore the fact that many of our neighbors and neighbors' downstate, apple-knocking relatives are violating the same rules of etiquette and laws.  They have, though, not violated one of the most important things that binds our society, tradition and custom.  Remington 7400's with a Weaver scope, slung with an embossed basket-weave scope over a shoulder wearing Woolrich buffalo plaid, seem to go a lot further with Unc and G'pa in their concept of social class.

This rambling anecdote is really to make the point that what we need to be mindful of is this sense of custom and tradition when considering the original question posed.  Many things about an inividual can be changed, but beliefs are pretty difficult to sway.  Beliefs are formed by institutions, such as proper parenting, schools, church, and government, and reinforced by experience.  The basis of most institutions, though, is tradition and custom.

Jackassery on the part of the AW-toting trspassers, or the kooky guy in a nearby town that raises a ruckus every Saturday he mows his lawn because he insists on wearing his .357 exposed in a hip holster, because it is his right, doesn't help with the experience part of the equation.

Do we have the right to keep and bear arms? YES!  Is that right abridged by thed fact that some of them are black, or look different than a duck gun?  NO!  But some of us aren't doing the rest of us any favors with their peripheral behaviors while posessing the AW, handgun, etc.  It only reinforces the belief.  Are they wihin their rights to own or posess the "bad" weapon?  Of course.  But it's the peripheral behavior that raises the red flag, and the association with the weapon that causes the problem.

[b]A balkanized shooting community is a doomed shooting community.[/b]

As has been pointed out, much of the anti AR/semi auto sentiment that exists in the minds of hunters is born of ignorance of both the the actual weapon and of the true meaning & intent of the 2nd. Amendment.

But instead of bitching about the problem here on ARFCOM, how about we go for forth & educate...

[url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=141360&w=searchPop]The AR That You Save May Be Your Own![/url]

Call me an optimist, but I think that in time, that the AR15 will become accepted throughout most of the gun owning community.  If you look at most of the anecdotes it usually consists of a old guy looking down on the young guy.  Fact of human nature, old people tend to be set in their ways, young people are willing to be open minded about things.  Most of the young shooters I have met are more into plinking and target shooting than hunting.  They also tend to me more politically minded and more supportive of the 2nd admendment.  I personally feel that while the number of gun owners might deline somewhat in the future, those that remain will be more politically active and aware.

As for my little story, my dad's cousin and his sons are still farmers and still farm my family's land.  I would say that they are a pretty traditional midwest farm family.  When my dad's cousin saw my ar15 for the first time, he naturally had to give me some flak about it, although it was fairly good natured.  Come to find out later, that his sons really wanted one and are really into evil looking rifles.

Overall, I think it is a generational thing, and some day the AR15 will replace the lever action.

As for the dissention within the AR15.com ranks about bling bling and such, I think the negative comments are more based on the K.I.S.S. principle (that or being really poor and not being able to buy any of that stuff).  Kind of like a guy who buys a 4WD pickup with a brush guard, wench, skid plates, etc. and then never takes it off road.  That said, I am all for people setting up their rifles however they want, as long as it works for them.

Ignorance of weapons/bullets, and some people actually think that "looks can kill:! STUPID COMMENTS  WITHOUT ANY LOGIC, OR RATIONAL THAT THEY CAN PRIVIDE!
JACK

It's called hypocrisy, shit-for-brains. All the same deal.A gun is a gun, regardless of the configuration. the dickheads just don't understand, "pro-gun" or not.

The only Guns these Redneck Deer Hunters know about come from Wal-Mart !!!!! If Wal-Mart don't sell it they don't like it !! [:D]

DBShabo, it is [b] BOLD [/b] faced lies, not bald.  Sorry, had to get that in.

The primary reason (IMHO) that many people are against the AR style rifle is that they don't see a non military use in it.  They view it as only a battle rifle and not as a target or hunting rifle.  The same guy that wants to hunt moose in alaska and buys a 50 cal so he can shoot it at 1.5 miles away (not hunting in my opinion if your not close enough to smell it)  will be the first to say "you can't hunt anything with that little bullet"  and the guy going after whitetail with the 30-06 (overkill for most deer in the US)  will say "why do you need 30 rounds?  Can't hit it the first time?"  Of course you also have the defensive only crowd that believes a short barreled shot gun is the only choice.  What we need to do is to educate the others about the capabilities and function of the AR.  

CR_OPSO... you passed up several excellent opportunities to educate your friends and family.  Start with the mini14 as an example of the useable rifle and explain that this is basically the same thing with a different appearance.  Then show how the action type makes for a better and lighter rifle.  

 

Please tell us exactly where this gentleman's establishment is that we may be able to deny him any of our business.

As I sit here tired from a long day at the range I'm trying to think of an intelligent response to this question.  Many points have already been covered.  I know that a large percentage of the Deputies on my department have personally owned ARs.  So too do many civillians in our county.  The range i shoot at for fun is a State owned public range with a wide variety of tastes and interests.  I invariably get attention from the blue and walnut set whenever I am shooting my AR.  The questions range from Waddaya hunt with that thing, to Wow cool.  I take it in stride most of the time.  Every now and then when one is particularly annoying I let them have it a little.  Usually something to the tune of despising hunting and that I wished they would outlaw bloodsports for good.  That usually brings shock and sputtering.  In truth I don't really care.  To each his own.  But I note that whenever I'm shooting my rimfire conversion I draw onlookers. When they ask about it and find out the cost of the rifle they quip about a good 10/22.  I reply, that noone stops and gawks at the guy with the 10/22 and I'm an attention whore.  In truth there is no good response to this question, as people are as varied as their interests and if their interest does not lie in our direction then they will continue to deny themselves the joy that is the AR.

In Tennessee I very rarely get negative comments
about my ARs.
Most people just want to look at them, and then
It's " Can I shoot that ?"

Most hunters (that I know) like their bolt guns and AR-15s also.
Around here, for the most part, if it goes bang,
shooters will accept it.

People that come in the store that I go to,
if they shoot rifles, think if you have an AR you shoot a lot.
And that you are a match shooter.

Which is fine with me.
I have never had any negative attitudes expressed to
me about my ARs.

I never realy encountered this kind of thing until I recently joined a local gun club. The big sport for these guys is skeet, and then hunting. Whenever I meet one of the people who may be thinking something stupid, I just offer them a chance to shoot one of my rifles. I find that if I present myself in a good way it just makes the rifles look that much nicer.

Why so many are against this fine weapon and an excellent tool to defend our rights?  It's because we are surrounded by idiots who do not know a thing about how the rights of the citizens of this country were established and defended throughout history. This country was not made through a slick legal maneuver. It was established by people using the best "assault" rifle available in 1776.

Because AW's draw too much negative publicity.
The walnut and blue crew see us as a threat because it invites attention and anti-gun legislation... as if AW's didn't exist the antis would go away.

We're the snowboarders on the slopes, the jet-skiers on the lakes, the motorcyclists on the roads. In their minds, we fuck it up for everyone else (them).

I've gotten more "waddya need wuna dose fer?" comments than I care for, so I have some some techniques.

Most importantly, never let the bolt action/pump shotgun crowd forget that the antis are looking to get at their precious "sniper rifles" and "alley sweepers". I like reminding people that I can outshoot any stock Remchester, and it's always fun to blatently say that the AR is the BEST rifle ever devised, as is evidenced by its use by our army. It's not entirely true, of course, but sometimes things need to be put in extremes to punch through bias.

some people won't like your shoes
some people won't like your haircut
some people won't like your ethnicity
some people won't like your ar15

who cares? life goes on and targets continue to drop

I believe the reason 'some' people have a problems with AR-15 type weapons is due to two reasons:

1.  The rifles are black(or at least dark) and subliminally we still associate black with the "Dark Side."

2.  Too may people, especially we who should know better, believe and say the "AR in AR-15 stands for "Assault Rifle" or even worse "Automatic Rifle."

In fact the "AR" in AR-15 stands for ArmaLite.  ArmaLite used the AR designator in all their weapons - AR-7 was a survival rifle - AR-17 a shotgun, AR-11 was a protype in .222, etc.

The Powder Horn Sport Shop
515 Main street
McSherrystown, PA 17344