Can some one explaine the difference between a a M4 and a M4gery.

I asked this in another thread but can't rember which one.

M4= USGI, Colt manufactured Rifle, with the nomenclature M4, or M4A1.  Safe, Semi and Burst/Auto.


Mforgery= Smoething that a civilian makes, in an attempt to have a rifle that looks like the above.

Thanks Cincinnatus!

Got it!

You forgot to mention a true M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel, 1 in 7 twist.

The civies of course can't have anything shorter than a 16 inch barrel (unless you fill out the paperwork and pay the tax) and most are 1 in 9 twist rates.  SO the major companies build them with permanantly affixed muzzle devices (either Flash Supressor fpr pre ban AR's and Muzzle Breaks for post ban AR's)

The M4 will also have different feed ramps in the receiver.  This is a design that is patented and only used by Colt.  However, for the reasons stated above, even a civilian Colt with the new feed ramps is considered an M4gery.

The new civilian M4 manufactured by Colt lacks the auto/burst features,has a funky looking muzzle brake, and a phony collapsible stock.  Is this considered an M4gery? Colt calls it an M4. If you put an all Colt M4 upper on an M16 receiver, is the rifle considered an M16 or an M4?  I think we should reserve the term "M4gery" for non-Colt M4 uppers and receivers.   As far as I am concerned, if is all Colt, its an M4.

Quoted: As far as I am concerned, if is all Colt, its an M4.

Just to play devil's advocate, this might only be true as long as Colt holds the contract for the Government M4/M4A1.  In the future, another manufacturer might end up underbidding Colt for future production runs, as FN did with the M16A2.  Colt could produce an M16A2 (have they?) which would still be an M16A2 even if not manufactured by FN.  It seems to me that "M4" should be limited to the military-spec (i.e. select fire) weapon.  Doesn't seem right for Colt to call the civilian version an M4, when they don't call the AR15 an M16.  Just my thoughts...

Dave in Kentucky

Quoted: As far as I am concerned, if is all Colt, its an M4.

Yeah, and if it's all Colt, it's an M16?  C'mon now.  If it's not selective fire, it's not an M4.  Period.

I just threw those comments for food for thought and feedback.  I agree, you can't call a Colt AR15 an M16, but Colt should not have called their new civilian version an M4. In doing so they changed the term to be inclusive of semi-auto versions.  I believe the term "M16" was given to the weapon by the military, not Colt or Armalite.  A friend of mine who was in Vietnam told me that their selective fire rifles were stamped "AR15" on the side of the mag well, the same place mine is stamped AR15.  Lets get away from this "M4gery" term and if an AR15 has an upper that is stamped "M4" or "4", has feed ramps, and the barrel is a tapered 14.5" with a 1/7 twist, just call it an M4. Colt does!

Semi-auto M4 is the correct term if everything is milspec and the only difference is the semi auto parts.  The manufacturer of the parts means NOTHING only if they are to spec.

Type of steel, alloys, what parts are chromed, barrel length, profile, twist, type of finish, these are the things that determine if its an M4 or a "M4gery" made only too LOOK like an M4 to the casual observer.  DPMS for example makes a full milspec M4 barrel.

Quoted: Quoted: As far as I am concerned, if is all Colt, its an M4. Just to play devil's advocate, this might only be true as long as Colt holds the contract for the Government M4/M4A1.  In the future, another manufacturer might end up underbidding Colt for future production runs, as FN did with the M16A2.  Colt could produce an M16A2 (have they?) which would still be an M16A2 even if not manufactured by FN.  It seems to me that "M4" should be limited to the military-spec (i.e. select fire) weapon.  Doesn't seem right for Colt to call the civilian version an M4, when they don't call the AR15 an M16.  Just my thoughts... Dave in Kentucky

For the moment, no one can overbid or produce the M4 in the configuration that Colt produces.  Colt owns a patent on certain design elements such as the M4 feed ramps and the double heat shield handguards.  Anyone who wishes to use these features must do so with the express permission of Colt.  Currently no one is using the feed ramps other than Colt.  All the M4 handguards are either factory Colt or have only one set of heat shields to beat the patent.

FN was able to beat out Colt on the M16 because they didn't own a patent on the A2 model.  The A2 was developed on request from the Marine Corps, therefore was owned by the U.S. government.  Colt developed the M4 independently, therefore they can own the current patent.  When this patent expires, then Colt has something to worry about.

Colt tried to introduce the A3 (full auto A2) model in order to win back the U.S. contract, but the DOD wouldn't accept the full auto feature.  They tried to get the M16 replaced by the M4, but the design was proven to not have sufficient design improvements to warrant a complete changeover at this time.  Although the M4 is the heart of the proposed Land Warrior system, it is only a supplemental arm to the M16A2 at this time.  

The U.S. did get in trouble though, because they had Bushmaster manufacture genuine M4's during the Gulf War without permission from Colt to use their patented design elements.  I believe the dispute is still ongoing, but no one other than Colt has produced a genuine M4 before or after that incident and cannot legally do so until the expiration of the patent.

Quoted: Let's not forget the "M4 Commando". My factory Colt Commando upper has the "4" on the carry-handle and feed-ramp cuts. It's pretty close to the real thing with a factory Colt M16-A1 lower. www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid11/pcca890f60675649ae1a6eccfddb340bc/fe103bb6.jpg

Yes, that's right.  Colt has been using the M4 feed ramp cuts on a number of their carbines.

It is also an interesting note that NavSpecWar have been using a "commando" model with either an 11.5" or a 10.5" barrel called the CQB.  These are not produced by Colt and do not have the M4 feed ramps.  

Knightstone,

Does the term M4 more properly refer the the configuration of the rifle?  I can see the military retrofiting their existing M16A2s with M4 uppers from Colt rather than buying whole new weapons.  Can you tell me if this is being done?

Thanks  

Dave in Kentucky,

As I think I said earlier, the term M16, or M16A2, was not given to the rifle by Colt, or Armalite who originally invented the rifle.  The term M16 and M16A2 was actually given to it by the military after it was adoped by the government.  I believe that this is why you don't see Colt calling the AR15 an M16.  The term "M4" I believe was likely given to this configuration by Colt, and not the military.  Thats probably why they can still call their semi-auto version an "M4".  Due to the patent issues indicated by others, it seems the only way you can have a true "M4" configuration, at least for the present time, is if all the parts were manufactured by Colt.

Quoted: Dave in Kentucky,  Due to the patent issues indicated by others, it seems the only way you can have a true "M4" configuration, at least for the present time, is if all the parts were manufactured by Colt.

No actually anyone can use any manufacures parts and have the feed ramps cut in etc and have a "to spec" M4.  The M4 is a set of specifications of parts and has NOTHING to do with the manufacturer.  We all call an M4 an M4 because the US military calls it that.  Please lets get rid of this Colt obsession.  I can make my own rifle at home and have ZERO Colt parts and it still be a full spec semi auto M4 so long as I dont try to mass produce it or Id get sued.

M4 has a specific barrel profile
chrome lined 4150 steel barrel
14.5" long 1/7 twist
manganeese phoshphate finish
forged front sight
flat top upper or A2 upper
feed ramp cuts in barrel and upper reciever
hard anodized finish on upper
etc.

These are the things that make an M4 an M4 not who makes them.  If its to spec its an M4 period.  The easiest way to do it is buy Colt but its not the ONLY way to do it.

Quoted: Knightstone, Does the term M4 more properly refer the the configuration of the rifle?  I can see the military retrofiting their existing M16A2s with M4 uppers from Colt rather than buying whole new weapons.  Can you tell me if this is being done? Thanks

To my knowledge, no.  The U.S. is still currently using the M16A2.  I don't foresee a complete changeover until the Army decides on whatever "future" system they are going to use.  The Land Warrior system uses the M4 as the main weapon, but there is no guarantee the Land Warrior will ever be approved.  I guess a potential cost cutting method in such a case would be to place M4 uppers on M16 lowers.  However, the DOD rarely does this and Colt would probably bitch and moan over not selling complete rifles at the complete rifle price.

Quoted: Quoted: Dave in Kentucky,  Due to the patent issues indicated by others, it seems the only way you can have a true "M4" configuration, at least for the present time, is if all the parts were manufactured by Colt. No actually anyone can use any manufacures parts and have the feed ramps cut in etc and have a "to spec" M4.  The M4 is a set of specifications of parts and has NOTHING to do with the manufacturer.  We all call an M4 an M4 because the US military calls it that.  Please lets get rid of this Colt obsession.  I can make my own rifle at home and have ZERO Colt parts and it still be a full spec semi auto M4 so long as I dont try to mass produce it or Id get sued. M4 has a specific barrel profile chrome lined 4150 steel barrel 14.5" long 1/7 twist manganeese phoshphate finish forged front sight flat top upper or A2 upper feed ramp cuts in barrel and upper reciever hard anodized finish on upper etc. These are the things that make an M4 an M4 not who makes them.  If its to spec its an M4 period.  The easiest way to do it is buy Colt but its not the ONLY way to do it.

When you say "anyone" can make the feed ramp cuts, i assume you mean someone working from their home.  A company like Bushamster or Rock River couldn't legally make these cuts without permission from Colt.  A gunsmith probably won't do it either.  Another company/business can't profit from a design patented by another company.

Quoted: Dave in Kentucky, As I think I said earlier, the term M16, or M16A2, was not given to the rifle by Colt, or Armalite who originally invented the rifle.  The term M16 and M16A2 was actually given to it by the military after it was adoped by the government.  I believe that this is why you don't see Colt calling the AR15 an M16.  The term "M4" I believe was likely given to this configuration by Colt, and not the military.  Thats probably why they can still call their semi-auto version an "M4".  Due to the patent issues indicated by others, it seems the only way you can have a true "M4" configuration, at least for the present time, is if all the parts were manufactured by Colt.

Actually not all the parts.  The upper receiver, barrel, and handguards would have to be Colt (or homemade and not for sale, as suggested by DEVL) for it to be a "genuine" M4.  None of these parts are truly needed, though.  The feed ramp cuts don't make the rifle any better or worse.  The handguards are better at keeping your hands cool, but I usually replace handguards with rail systems.  I agree with those that say Colt is just a name and not really all that worth it.  I personally would rather avoid Colt.  I will take an M4gery over a "genuine" M4 any day of the week.

Quoted: The handguards are better at keeping your hands cool, but I usually replace handguards with rail systems.

Who makes the rail system that the military uses - the kind that just replaces the standard handguards, not the full length rail on top?

The M4/M4A1s we had in my Cav squadron had both - some had the regular handguards, while the scouts from some troops had the rail system.  I could never figure out why they didn't all have the rails - perhaps the ones with standard handguards were M4s and the rails were M4A1s?  They all had the removeable carrying handle though, so I think they were all A1s.  My armorer couldn't figure out how to order the rails (maybe cause he was a 12B).

Dave in Kentucky

Quoted: Dave in Kentucky, As I think I said earlier, the term M16, or M16A2, was not given to the rifle by Colt, or Armalite who originally invented the rifle.  The term M16 and M16A2 was actually given to it by the military after it was adoped by the government.  I believe that this is why you don't see Colt calling the AR15 an M16.

Thanks for clarifying that - I guess I knew that but never really thought about it.  That makes a lot more sense.

Did the military actually use the term CAR-15 for the carbines used in the Vietnam era, or did they call them something else (e.g. Colt Commando)?

Dave in Kentucky

OK to clarify the upper DOES NOT HAVE TO BE COLT!  You guys got that?  M4 on the upper is not a "SPEC" if the materials, dimensions and finish are "SPEC" then it IS an M4 ok?  As for noone making the feed ramps... no a company can not make them but Kurt in the industry forum does em for a small fee all the time.  The rails on the front that replace the handguards are Knights Armament and you can have those instead of the Colt handguards and still be in spec.  Any of the approved handguards are still in spec.  Agian the company or people who make something has NOTHING to do with what the rifle is.  If Colt makes a piston driven, 17" barreled rifle and calls it an M4 that DOES NOT MEAN ITS AN M4!  The specs make it an M4 and NOTHING else.  Not the company who makes the parts.  There is no milspec that says a part must be made by X company.  They are all very specific technical specifications.  We should compile a set of specs and diagrams to show what an M4 really is.  

Oh BTW DPMS made a milspec M4 barrel with the patented Colt cuts in it that matched up to a Colt upper (hope they dont get sued) Some one offered to sell me one in the EE last week.  It was a limited production run.

An M16 is the same thing.  A transmission company made M16s once upon a time.  A Hydramatic M16 is still an M16.  The US military calls em M16s because they were made to spec not because Colt made em.  If Colt makes something not to spec then its no longer an M16 or M4 either.

I think the CORE of what an M4 is goes to the barrel.  14.5" long, 1:7 twist, 4150 steel, forged front sight, hard chrome lined barrel and chamber, maganeese phoshate finish.  If it has that then its still considered an M4 in my book.  Its just a highly customized M4

I have a very simple question that mabe someone out there can answer.  Was the term "M4" given to the rifle by Colt, or by the military?  As I indicated earlier, I am 99.9% sure that the AR15 was given the designation "M16" by the military after it was adopted by the government.  I do not believe that any of the other companies such as Bushmaster or Olympic Arms call their rifles AR15s.  If Colt holds the patents on the M4, then only Colt has the right to use the term M4.  I am not saying that Colt is any better than the other companies.  

Quoted: You forgot to mention a true M4 has a 14.5 inch barrel, 1 in 7 twist. The civies of course can't have anything shorter than a 16 inch barrel (unless you fill out the paperwork and pay the tax) and most are 1 in 9 twist rates.  SO the major companies build them with permanantly affixed muzzle devices (either Flash Supressor fpr pre ban AR's and Muzzle Breaks for post ban AR's)

Actually, Colt makes a semi-auto 16.1" pre-ban (LE6920) M4 with 1/7 and 1/9 twist rates.

I have a complete all-Colt 16.1" 1/7 M4 preban conversion on a Colt pre-ban lower. So I guess mine is pretty damn close to being the real thing....

One reason they don't call them AR-15s is because the 1994 AWB banned "AR-15" rifles by name.  Colt doesn't call them that anymore either.

To be a "true" M4, it would have to have:

14.5" barrel made of 4150 steel, rifled at 1:7" with a chome lined bore, bayonet lug, threaded muzzle, the profile with the notch for the M203, and the barrel extension cut for the extended feed ramps.

A4 flat-top upper with numbers and feed ramps or an upper with A1 sights (with ramps?).

Double heat shielded CAR handguards or a Knight(?) rail system.

Collapable stock.

Three-round burst (M4) or full-auto (M4A1) trigger group.

If only Colt can legally sell uppers with the feed ramps and double-shielded handguards, then at least some of the parts must be Colt, or modified after the OEM.  

Obviously to have a "true" M4, you'd have to have a legal MG lower.  Next closest would be a pre-ban lower with SBR.  Next would be a pre-ban lower with permanent FS.  How many features you can give up and still call it an M4 seems to be a hotly debated topic.  Some people will consider anything with a flat-top upper and a barrel with the right profile an "M4" while others might insist on the 14.5" barrel and double shielded HGs too, and maybe a fake collapable stock for the look.

I agree that Colt is no longer using the name AR15 due to the various bans; however, they have the right to call any firearm they make an AR15.  They could call their SAA an AR15 if they want to.  The fact of the matter is they have "the legal right".  This is why they can call their new semi-auto M4 an "M4". I do not believe that this is a mil-spec rifle having a phony collapsible stock, 16"+ barrel with a 1/9 twist, and no flash suppressor.  If any other company such as Bushmaster or Olympic Arms were to build a 100%, all mil-spec rifle, and attempted to market it as an "M4", what would happen? More than likely a law suit.  

Regarding if they used CAR-15s in Vietnam.  I was not there but I know that there are many various versions of the AR-15 carbine.  Such variations are the XM-177 and XM-177E2.  A book called "Small Arms of the World"  shows a number of the various AR15 configurations.  Great Book!   The History Channel did a segment called "The History of the M-16" awhile back.  A must see!  I think you can buy the tape from them.

The term CAR-15 was a civilian term and was used on the XM177 series because they were marked "AR15" on the receiver.  I believe CAR-15 was also used as the designation to the original prototype carbines that were made for the military.  They had a smaller version of the triangular handguard and a smaller version of the standard A1 buttstock that could be closed (similar size to the tactical entry stocks from RRA) or opened to A1 length.  Colt still referred to the later rifles as CAR-15's, and I think the name stuck bettter than XM177E1 and XM177E2.

If Colt makes a rifle and calls it an M-4, it is what it is.  You can argue the point all day, but it is still a "Colt M-4" just like an AM General HUMMER is a "HUMMER".  One is a military model and the other is civilian. The civilian M-4 is closer to a GI M-4 than the HUMMER's.

Quoted: Quoted: The handguards are better at keeping your hands cool, but I usually replace handguards with rail systems. Who makes the rail system that the military uses - the kind that just replaces the standard handguards, not the full length rail on top? The M4/M4A1s we had in my Cav squadron had both - some had the regular handguards, while the scouts from some troops had the rail system.  I could never figure out why they didn't all have the rails - perhaps the ones with standard handguards were M4s and the rails were M4A1s?  They all had the removeable carrying handle though, so I think they were all A1s.  My armorer couldn't figure out how to order the rails (maybe cause he was a 12B). Dave in Kentucky

Knight's Armament Company makes the majority of rail systems for the modular weapons system (MWS) used by military forces.  The older model was called the RIS (Rail Interface System) and the newer versions are the RAS (Rail accessory system). The RAS is more stable when it locks to the receiver, but the RIS can accomadate a wider variety of barrel widths, such as lightweights, and was preferred by SeALs.

The ones that cover the full rail are most likely A.R.M.S. SIR (Selective Integrated Rail) systems.  Mosre recently, the Knight's RAS II has been issued to certain units and this unit also has a rail that exends (partially) over the top rail of the receiver.  The RAS II is favored by SeALs because it, like the original RIS, can accomadate a wider variety of barrels.  It also free floats the barrel like the SIR system.

There has been some debates as to what truly makes an "M4A1" just like there are debates as to what is a true "M4".  The original M4's had fixed carry handles and three round bursts.  Later, the flat top was added and NavSpecWar requested that full auto versions be made.  

I was always under the impression that an "A1" M4 (Colt 927) had to be fully automatic regardless of the carry handle.  This was my impression because SeALs have used M4's with fixed carry handles (Colt 727) and also fixed M16A1 carry handle/sights (I believe Colt 627) depending on mission requirements.  Even with these changes, they refer to them as M4A1's because they fire full auto instead of three round burst.  

Given that information, All regualr Army and Marine units have M4's.  Rangers also field the M4 instead of the M4A1.  Naval Special Warfare, Marine Force Recon, and Delta Force all use M4A1's.

Colt may have a copyright to the M4 name but the name was given by the military. It was the next in a line a carbines.

M1 .30 cal carbine
M2 full auto M1
M3 the "grease gun"
M4 the 14.5" barreled 5.56mm rifle

M5 probably a G36K

Quoted: Colt may have a copyright to the M4 name but the name was given by the military. It was the next in a line a carbines. M1 .30 cal carbine M2 full auto M1 M3 the "grease gun" M4 the 14.5" barreled 5.56mm rifle M5 probably a G36K

As far as i know, military numbering of equipment doesn't necessarily come in any particular order, neither does it make sense.  I M4 was next on your list of carbines, then the M3 doesn't fit.  The M3 is a subgun.  

The M3 came after the M1 Thompson.  It was not a carbine like the M1 or M2 carbines.  Also the XM177 was considered a subgun and didn't follow in that order after the M3.  If it had been approved for widespread use, it would have been the M17 or M177.  The MP5 and Colt 9mm are issued to certain troops and have never been given such a designation, neither were the S&W sub machine guns used in Vietnam.  

If someone were issued a G36 in the U.S. armed forces, I doubt it would be referred to as the M5.  

The M16A1 and A2 carbines were not referred to as either the M3 or M4 even though they were carbines that came after the M2.  It is true the M4 designation is of military origin, but the way it received the designation which you stated isn't exactly right.  Rather it was given that because it was the fourth in the M16 carbine series:  The XM177 series, A1 carbine, A2 carbine, then the Model 4, then the Model 4 Advanced 1.

Colt, and everyone else, is somewhat correct in using the M4 designation.  The three previous models have had civilian versions marketed.  Though there have been more variations of the carbine for the civilian market than the military, the M4 would be the fourth generation as far as major design (cosmetic and functianal)changes are concerned.  

Quoted: Quoted: Dave in Kentucky,  Due to the patent issues indicated by others, it seems the only way you can have a true "M4" configuration, at least for the present time, is if all the parts were manufactured by Colt. No actually anyone can use any manufacures parts and have the feed ramps cut in etc and have a "to spec" M4.  The M4 is a set of specifications of parts and has NOTHING to do with the manufacturer.  We all call an M4 an M4 because the US military calls it that.  Please lets get rid of this Colt obsession.  I can make my own rifle at home and have ZERO Colt parts and it still be a full spec semi auto M4 so long as I dont try to mass produce it or Id get sued. M4 has a specific barrel profile chrome lined 4150 steel barrel 14.5" long 1/7 twist manganeese phoshphate finish forged front sight flat top upper or A2 upper feed ramp cuts in barrel and upper reciever hard anodized finish on upper etc. These are the things that make an M4 an M4 not who makes them.  If its to spec its an M4 period.  The easiest way to do it is buy Colt but its not the ONLY way to do it.

Correctomundo!

I have seen feed the M4 feedramp cuts on FN flattop upgrade kits.

all Designated Marksman program rifles have them if I am not mistaken.

PS,The only Colt I own would be an SAA make my AR15/M16 FN or BM:)

Well, the list i have in mind...

M1 .30 carbine
M2 .30 carbine(full auto)
M3 .30 carbine(full auto with early NV scope)
M4 5.56x45 carbine

Same goes for the rifles

M14
M15 (I think M14A1 and the M15 were very similar if not the same)

And the M16....

I have one of the Colt M4's After reading this might just have to change my profile :) But the one I have is a 1/7 twist and the barrel would be 14.5" but the muzzle break makes it 16" so that it can be sold legally post-ban same thing with the fixed stock all thy did was put 2 pop rivets into the collapsible stock.

I bought my first AR15 back in 1977.  Those companies that made AR15 type parts, Palmetto, Bushmaster, and others, were all called "AR15 clones".   Does anyone use this term anymore or am I just showing my age?