User Panel
Posted: 12/7/2011 7:04:06 PM EDT
Isn't FN barred in their contract with DoD to compete with civilian AR manufacturers?
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FN is a manufacturer and defense contractor. They may be restricted from selling M16s and M240Bs but nothing says thay can't sell rifle barrels to gun manufacturers.
They are in business to do business. |
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The same way FN sells the SCAR to the .mil and to us lowly civilians at the same time.
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with.
Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. |
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. |
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. I am not in charge of anything either but I agree, the answer you gave was uncalled for. With the exception of trolls, we should be educating not slamming someone for asking a question they don't know the answer to. |
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. I am not in charge of anything either but I agree, the answer you gave was uncalled for. With the exception of trolls, we should be educating not slamming someone for asking a question they don't know the answer to. It is also uncalled for when some one comes in here and questions the vendor's legitimacy. OP assumes PSA is somehow doing something shady by offering top quality military-grade barrels that he assumes are otherwise unattainable. So back the fuck up and find another pond to piss in. |
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. I am not in charge of anything either but I agree, the answer you gave was uncalled for. With the exception of trolls, we should be educating not slamming someone for asking a question they don't know the answer to. It is also uncalled for when some one comes in here and questions the vendor's legitimacy. OP assumes PSA is somehow doing something shady by offering top quality military-grade barrels that he assumes are otherwise unattainable. So back the fuck up and find another pond to piss in. He is asking a question about something he does not understand. Unless you know him from another thread (I don't) it does not seem to me that he is questioning their legitimacy. You need to dial your fanboy rage down a notch. I post in here occasionally and have on many occasions respected your opinion very much. You lost it on this one. |
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. I am not in charge of anything either but I agree, the answer you gave was uncalled for. With the exception of trolls, we should be educating not slamming someone for asking a question they don't know the answer to. It is also uncalled for when some one comes in here and questions the vendor's legitimacy. OP assumes PSA is somehow doing something shady by offering top quality military-grade barrels that he assumes are otherwise unattainable. So back the fuck up and find another pond to piss in. He is asking a question about something he does not understand blah... blah... blah Thank you for contributing. Now we all learned something. |
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It is also uncalled for when some one comes in here and questions the vendor's legitimacy. I can't see where he did that. Quoted:
OP assumes PSA is somehow doing something shady by offering top quality military-grade barrels that he assumes are otherwise unattainable. Or that. Quoted:
Thank you for contributing. Now we all learned something. Not all, it would seem. I have a nagging, sneaking suspicion that the OP had a legitimate concern. Perhaps he wanted some assurance that these barrels weren't "seconds" or "blems." Maybe he just needed to know that this wasn't some "non-standard" supply channel that might get shut down on a technicality. Or it's possible that he wanted some other component FN made, was told to defecate into his own chapeau... and subsequently sought clarification. Nowhere in it did I see the OP question PSA's legitimacy or accuse them of shady dealings. |
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From PSA: Barrel: A proprietary blend of Hammer forged chrome molly vanadium made by FN that is referred to as "Machine Gun Steel" by virtue of its use in FN's M249 and M240 weapons To me it means they use the same metal blends but are not necessarily made to all the same specs as military barrels. I could be totally worng. Just me thinking too much. If I were to guess, I would guess they change 1 small minute detail to make it different than the military barrels. Who really knows?....who really cares? All I know is I bought one and its awesome. |
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Are you fucking serious? This can probably be interpreted as "this has been addressed numerous times. Read threads, use search, and educate yourself". Anyone who actually pays attention to posts here is going to get frustrated. I don't see how PSA puts up with the crap. If I clicked submit to everytime I started a reply, I'd have been banned a long time ago. AYFS :) |
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From PSA: Barrel: A proprietary blend of Hammer forged chrome molly vanadium made by FN that is referred to as "Machine Gun Steel" by virtue of its use in FN's M249 and M240 weapons To me it means they use the same metal blends but are not necessarily made to all the same specs as military barrels. I could be totally worng. Just me thinking too much. If I were to guess, I would guess they change 1 small minute detail to make it different than the military barrels. Who really knows?....who really cares? All I know is I bought one and its awesome. RAGING FANBOY!!! I KNEW IT!!! |
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panzersergeant,
let me refresh your memory for a second: panzersergeant didn't know something, but was educated politely... Now, let me go ahead and quote from that thread: By reticle: Anyone know if these are upper or lower shelf?
To which, panzersergeant replied: And, PSA responded: I believe that they are low shelf as most AP lowers are. Please provide the dimensions/ clearance that you are looking for and I will measure it and let you know if it will work for what you are looking for.
Thanks, Jamin panzersergeant, you then said: I take it we are not talking about quality when discussing upper or lower shelf?
To which, PSA replied: Negative. It has to do with the ability to install an auto sear and a fun switch without having to do large amounts of maching.
You were the last poster in that thread, when you said: Thanks, Jamin. Learn something new everyday.
You see, sir, not everyone knows everything and when they display their ignorance (or ask a question in order to eliminate that ignorance), there are polite ways of educating that person. i do believe you owe some people a public apology. |
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Quoted:This can probably be interpreted as "this has been addressed numerous times. Read threads, use search, and educate yourself". In the OP's defense, I just now used the search function to check this subforum. I used "barrels" as the keyword and set the maximum length of time (30 days) allowed. The search yielded four results. This thread was one of them. None of the other three addressed the original concern.
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panzersergeant, let me refresh your memory for a second blah blah blah... The thing is I will make an effort to learn on my own before posting something here. There are a lot of competitor trolls who come in here to start shit or trash talk PSA. It usually starts by asking a seemingly unobtrusive question like "how are you able to get stuff no one else can?" The OP asked a question. He got an answer. It would seem he is good with the answer as he has not returned. |
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The OP asked a question. He got an answer. It would seem he is good with the answer as he has not returned. I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that "he is good with the answer" is NOT why he has not returned. |
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panzersergeant, let me refresh your memory for a second blah blah blah... The thing is I will make an effort to learn on my own before posting something here. There are a lot of competitor trolls who come in here to start shit or trash talk PSA. It usually starts by asking a seemingly unobtrusive question like "how are you able to get stuff no one else can?" The OP asked a question. He got an answer. It would seem he is good with the answer as he has not returned. So, in the 8 years between your join date and the time of that thread, during which time you've been a member of the largest AR-15 forum on the internet, you hadn't learned about the differences between high and low shelf lower receivers? Yet, you assumed someone was making disparaging comments about PSA's quality? That was a full year before many (reasonable and justifiable) concerns had been voiced about PSA's QC (uppers with the wrong gas tubes). Yet again, you've assumed (and, as a fellow vet, I'm sure you know the saying regarding assuming) that someone was making disparaging remarks, without fully learning the OP's intentions. Sir, you did NOT make an effort to learn why the OP was wondering how PSA could get FN barrels before (possibly) falsely accusing him of calling into question PSA's integrity. Not everyone is a troll and it does this site and it's many members a disservice to assume that an uneducated poster is a troll. This website's primary function is to educate the uneducated. By calling them trolls and questioning their intent, you are likely to run them off and cause them to have ill feelings towards this site. (That is also likely to extend to PSA, if the person you call a troll and insult perceives you to be PSA's number one fanboi and cheerleader.) I still contend you owe some folks apologies. |
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The OP asked a question. He got an answer. It would seem he is good with the answer as he has not returned. I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that "he is good with the answer" is NOT why he has not returned. Yeah, more likely he feels run off by panzersergeant. |
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Yeah, more likely he feels run off by panzersergeant. Because that was my goal here. By the way, SiVisPacem; you seem.... familiar. |
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We buy our barrels directly from FN. Their manufacturing plant is about 10 minutes down the street from us. No need to get all worked up, guys..post em' if you got em! http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6102/6263187305_9e90fcc72a_z.jpg There are those here that want to know if these are blems or seconds. Are they? For the record, mine shoots just fine. |
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Yeah, more likely he feels run off by panzersergeant. Because that was my goal here. By the way, SiVisPacem; you seem.... familiar. Intended or not, you might have very well done so. And, I don't know what you mean with your attempt to channel NorCal_LEO. |
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We buy our barrels directly from FN. Their manufacturing plant is about 10 minutes down the street from us. No need to get all worked up, guys..post em' if you got em! http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6102/6263187305_9e90fcc72a_z.jpg There are those here that want to know if these are blems or seconds. Are they? For the record, mine shoots just fine. No, they are brand new production. The only "blem" FN barrels we have sold were of a very limited supply and were advertised as such. |
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Ah, so you're a fucking mind-reader now?
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Ease up on the answer there big guy. The OP asked a legitimate question to a subject he wasn't familiar with. Maybe next time you can share your vast knowledge with a little less of an attitude. Don't know who the fuck died and put you in charge but... you ain't. I am not in charge of anything either but I agree, the answer you gave was uncalled for. With the exception of trolls, we should be educating not slamming someone for asking a question they don't know the answer to. It is also uncalled for when some one comes in here and questions the vendor's legitimacy. |
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How old are we....lets try to keep this civil.....I thought this was a gun forum not a soap opera
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There are those here that want to know if these are blems or seconds. Are they? That was me making the reference to blems and seconds. And I was neither accusing nor suspecting. I simply thought that this might have been one potential rationale behind the OP's question. That was all. |
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panzersergeant, let me refresh your memory for a second blah blah blah... The thing is I will make an effort to learn on my own before posting something here. There are a lot of competitor trolls who come in here to start shit or trash talk PSA. It usually starts by asking a seemingly unobtrusive question like "how are you able to get stuff no one else can?" The OP asked a question. He got an answer. It would seem he is good with the answer as he has not returned. ive seen some stuff about some FN barrels/uppers being stolen mil property. seems like a legit question. |
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ive seen some stuff about some FN barrels/uppers being stolen mil property. seems like a legit question. I seem to recall seeing something remarkably similar... about their fire-control parts... from a suspect source... over ten years ago. That's why the internet gives me kidney stones... and why I wish the "loud-and-clear" answer to this question was written across the sky. There are times when I really do think this site (and others) could benefit from a "rumor control/urban legend" page ala Snopes. |
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Would ar15.com allow PSA to be a Industry partner if they were selling stolen military products? Probably not.
Would PSA still be in business if they were selling stolen military products? Probably not. |
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Would ar15.com allow PSA to be a Industry partner if they were selling stolen military products? Probably not. Would PSA still be in business if they were selling stolen military products? Probably not. Exactly! Would they proudly proclaim it to every corner of the internet? Probably not. Is there a concise answer to this question that can be made a "Sticky?" |
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Isn't FN barred in their contract with DoD to compete with civilian AR manufacturers? For the record, we have no idea what lurks in contracts FN has signed with the DOD, or anyone else for that matter, and I suspect few people do. We get our FN barrels the way many other AR makers do. They are first run, top quality products, purchased through legal channels. |
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Quoted: We buy our barrels directly from FN. Their manufacturing plant is about 10 minutes down the street from us. No need to get all worked up, guys..post em' if you got em! http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6102/6263187305_9e90fcc72a_z.jpg Mine was had legit thru a site sponsor. But it don't quite look the same. |
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Isn't FN barred in their contract with DoD to compete with civilian AR manufacturers? For the record, we have no idea what lurks in contracts FN has signed with the DOD, or anyone else for that matter, and I suspect few people do. We get our FN barrels the way many other AR makers do. They are first run, top quality products, purchased through legal channels. I don't doubt this, and it sounds like you may not have the answer yourselves, but I too am curious as to how FNMI gets around the contract details that prevent them from otherwise profitting from proprietary information contained in the M16 TDP. I do know that I have toured the FNMI plant in Columbia, and know first hand that PSA is not the only company they provide barrels for. I don't suspect FNMI or PSA are doing anything shady, but people at FNMI have told me directly that they are not allowed to sell M16s, AR15s, and components commercially due to contract obligations - because the M16 TDP is proprietary information, and their contract specifically states that they cannot sell anything utilizing propriety information provided under that contract for commercial sales. For starters, I believe that this is the biggest reason we will never see an FN branded commercial AR15 - they burden of proof would have to fall on them to prove that no part of the TDP was used in the development of a commercial AR15, something that would be quite difficult to do. I suspect that they can get around being a barrel source for other manufacturers based on the fact that they do not generate the specifications (the TDP) for the components they produce. PSA, or one of the other companies comes to FNMI with drawings and specs that they have already generated - and ask FNMI to turn them on their machinery. Since the entities that have contracted with FNMI to produce barrels do not have access to the TDP provided to FN, when FN produces the barrels and profits from their manufacture, they are not profitting from proprietary TDP information, they are simply profitting from their manufacturing capabilities and ability to manufacture barrels that meet a customer's specifications. This is even for CHF barrels since military (TDP) barrels are not CHF, which is why (I suspect) most of the AR barrels that FN makes for the commercial market are in fact CHF barrels, not button cut profiles. Since the SCAR was developed by FN, and furthermore, no stipulation was included in the SCAR contracts about the SCAR TDP being government property and that FN could not profit commercially from them, they are free to sell SCARs using information from the TDP. The real reason that FNMI's M16 contracts come with that stipulation, is because it is legitimately protecting propriety information developed by Colt. If that stipulation didn't exist, what would there have been to stop FN or any other company bidding on the M16 contract to just undercut Colt on unit costs, just so they could get their hands on the TDP and start cranking out rifles and selling them commercially? A "milspec" PSA barrel made by FN, I would think, would necessarily be a breach of contract for FN. So, that's not what you get. You get a PSA-spec barrel. How similar or not PSA's specs happen to be to milspec is irrelevant as far as the contract is concerned. That being said, FN can be a provider to customers, because they can just use the customer's specs, and not the TDP - it would be much more difficult for them to commercially produce their own line of AR15s, because you would have to totally segregate the engineers working on the AR15 from those working on the M16s and prove that none of the "AR15 Team" had ever seen the TDP, or maybe even talked to one of the "M16 Team" in the break room and gotten proprietary information from them. ~Augee |
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Isn't FN barred in their contract with DoD to compete with civilian AR manufacturers? For the record, we have no idea what lurks in contracts FN has signed with the DOD, or anyone else for that matter, and I suspect few people do. We get our FN barrels the way many other AR makers do. They are first run, top quality products, purchased through legal channels. I don't doubt this, and it sounds like you may not have the answer yourselves, but I too am curious as to how FNMI gets around the contract details that prevent them from otherwise profitting from proprietary information contained in the M16 TDP. I do know that I have toured the FNMI plant in Columbia, and know first hand that PSA is not the only company they provide barrels for. I don't suspect FNMI or PSA are doing anything shady, but people at FNMI have told me directly that they are not allowed to sell M16s, AR15s, and components commercially due to contract obligations - because the M16 TDP is proprietary information, and their contract specifically states that they cannot sell anything utilizing propriety information provided under that contract for commercial sales. For starters, I believe that this is the biggest reason we will never see an FN branded commercial AR15 - they burden of proof would have to fall on them to prove that no part of the TDP was used in the development of a commercial AR15, something that would be quite difficult to do. I suspect that they can get around being a barrel source for other manufacturers based on the fact that they do not generate the specifications (the TDP) for the components they produce. PSA, or one of the other companies comes to FNMI with drawings and specs that they have already generated - and ask FNMI to turn them on their machinery. Since the entities that have contracted with FNMI to produce barrels do not have access to the TDP provided to FN, when FN produces the barrels and profits from their manufacture, they are not profitting from proprietary TDP information, they are simply profitting from their manufacturing capabilities and ability to manufacture barrels that meet a customer's specifications. This is even for CHF barrels since military (TDP) barrels are not CHF, which is why (I suspect) most of the AR barrels that FN makes for the commercial market are in fact CHF barrels, not button cut profiles. Since the SCAR was developed by FN, and furthermore, no stipulation was included in the SCAR contracts about the SCAR TDP being government property and that FN could not profit commercially from them, they are free to sell SCARs using information from the TDP. The real reason that FNMI's M16 contracts come with that stipulation, is because it is legitimately protecting propriety information developed by Colt. If that stipulation didn't exist, what would there have been to stop FN or any other company bidding on the M16 contract to just undercut Colt on unit costs, just so they could get their hands on the TDP and start cranking out rifles and selling them commercially? A "milspec" PSA barrel made by FN, I would think, would necessarily be a breach of contract for FN. So, that's not what you get. You get a PSA-spec barrel. How similar or not PSA's specs happen to be to milspec is irrelevant as far as the contract is concerned. That being said, FN can be a provider to customers, because they can just use the customer's specs, and not the TDP - it would be much more difficult for them to commercially produce their own line of AR15s, because you would have to totally segregate the engineers working on the AR15 from those working on the M16s and prove that none of the "AR15 Team" had ever seen the TDP, or maybe even talked to one of the "M16 Team" in the break room and gotten proprietary information from them. ~Augee Good post |
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I for one am glad the OP asked this question. When doing my research for an upper using my google fu I read from many sources that the only way a FN Barrel was legit was if it was a blemmed one. I dont care about blemishes on my rifle so I ordered the HF barrel from PSA. It is good to know what PSA had to say about this. I am even more happy to know that I am getting a non-blemished barrel for a great price.
Thanks OP and PSA for posing this question/answer. |
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Also... every military FN barrel I've seen is text-marked "FNMI" (for "Fabrique National Manufacturing Incorporated") while the PSA barrels feature the "FNH" ("Fabrique National Herstal") logotype. These are, technically, two separate business entities owned by the same parent corporation.I do know that I have toured the FNMI plant in Columbia, and know first hand that PSA is not the only company they provide barrels for. Quoted:
You make an excellent point in noting that the commercial barrels sold by PSA are all hammer-forged (thus straying in a major substantive way from the TDP).This is even for CHF barrels since military (TDP) barrels are not CHF, which is why (I suspect) most of the AR barrels that FN makes for the commercial market are in fact CHF barrels, not button cut profiles. Quoted:
I have also noticed that the military barrels come in 20 inches (M16A2/A3), 14.5 inches (M4/M4A1) and 10.3 inches (CQBR), while the PSA/FNH barrels are 16, 14.7 and 10.5 inches respectively. Granted, the difference in the latter two cases is only 2/10 of an inch... but it is another specification that differs from the TDP.
A "milspec" PSA barrel made by FN, I would think, would necessarily be a breach of contract for FN. So, that's not what you get. You get a PSA-spec barrel. How similar or not PSA's specs happen to be to milspec is irrelevant as far as the contract is concerned. Seems like enough of an answer to me. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe there really isn't. |
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Daniel Defense and FN make hammer forged 5.56/.223 chrome lined AR15/M249 blanks. To the best of my knowledge no one else in the world does this so any time you see a hammer forged, chrome-lined barrel on an AR15 you know one of those two companies made the barrel.
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well anyway, it's good to know that these are new production FN barrels purchased through legal channels.
I was more afraid that this was some kind of, I dunno, temporary "contract overrun" deal where these rifles are available for a limited time only. I plan on buying a rifle kit like this in the next few months, but don't want to deplete my emergency savings yet again after just spending 350$ on another gun. |
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I purchased a mid length barrel lightweight stripped barrel during the Black Friday sale. I believe it is was a FN barrel but mine is stamped "5.56 NATO 1/7 MP CHF CL PSA" and not the FN logo on the pic. Can you verify that I received a FN barrel or some other manufacturer?
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We buy our barrels directly from FN. Their manufacturing plant is about 10 minutes down the street from us. No need to get all worked up, guys..post em' if you got em! http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6102/6263187305_9e90fcc72a_z.jpg |
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I purchased a mid length barrel lightweight stripped barrel during the Black Friday sale. I believe it is was a FN barrel but mine is stamped "5.56 NATO 1/7 MP CHF CL PSA" and not the FN logo on the pic. Can you verify that I received a FN barrel or some other manufacturer? Yes, some of the barrels FN makes for us have our roll mark on it instead of theirs. |
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Thanks for the quick reply. Wasn't worried but just wanted to know.
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If you want to buy the upper for an investment and super accuracy go Noveski
If you want an upper with the barretl tough as the military uses then go to PSA Being from a bench rest backround we usually buy the best barrel you can afford,spending 50 to 75 bucks more, really is a small investment if you are an accuracy nut. John PS I buy Kreiger,Shilen,Hart .Benchmark 3 gruve barrels. None of these are Mil Spec. |
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Also... every military FN barrel I've seen is text-marked "FNMI" (for "Fabrique National Manufacturing Incorporated") while the PSA barrels feature the "FNH" ("Fabrique National Herstal") logotype. These are, technically, two separate business entities owned by the same parent corporation.I do know that I have toured the FNMI plant in Columbia, and know first hand that PSA is not the only company they provide barrels for. Quoted:
You make an excellent point in noting that the commercial barrels sold by PSA are all hammer-forged (thus straying in a major substantive way from the TDP).This is even for CHF barrels since military (TDP) barrels are not CHF, which is why (I suspect) most of the AR barrels that FN makes for the commercial market are in fact CHF barrels, not button cut profiles. Quoted:
I have also noticed that the military barrels come in 20 inches (M16A2/A3), 14.5 inches (M4/M4A1) and 10.3 inches (CQBR), while the PSA/FNH barrels are 16, 14.7 and 10.5 inches respectively. Granted, the difference in the latter two cases is only 2/10 of an inch... but it is another specification that differs from the TDP.
A "milspec" PSA barrel made by FN, I would think, would necessarily be a breach of contract for FN. So, that's not what you get. You get a PSA-spec barrel. How similar or not PSA's specs happen to be to milspec is irrelevant as far as the contract is concerned. Seems like enough of an answer to me. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe there really isn't. This may ruin your theory. Your not noticing the 20" ers? There were/are some 20" FN barreled uppers PSA has offered. one was hammer forged and the other wasn't, both FN made. I know cause i bought one of the the non hammer forged 4150 5.56 NATO FN barreled upper with the FN logo on it. Not all of PSA'S FN barrel offerings are HF. |
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If you want to buy the upper for an investment and super accuracy go Noveski If you want an upper with the barretl tough as the military uses then go to PSA Being from a bench rest backround we usually buy the best barrel you can afford,spending 50 to 75 bucks more, really is a small investment if you are an accuracy nut. John PS I buy Kreiger,Shilen,Hart .Benchmark 3 gruve barrels. None of these are Mil Spec. Really? Noveski or Noveske |
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