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Posted: 6/30/2020 3:00:43 AM EDT
Last weekend i shot my clubs members 200/600 match. This was only the second time I have shot the rifle. The last time I shot 600 yards before range qualification 2 weeks ago was at least 10 years ago with a .223.
We use these wizbang e-target deals so the screen shots are attached below. 200 yard was pretty decent but the 600 yard needs some work. From what I can tell I at least put the shots in about 5 MOA. Does that seem right considering the outer circle is 60 inches and all my shots are more or less in the lower half? The rifle is a Rem 700 .308 26” varminter with a Vortex Crossfire 3-9x40 with the BDC reticle. Wrong scope for sure but I had it and the rings in my parts pile and the rifle was under 300 on clearance so I think I’m doing well on that end. I was sloppy on the hold and cheek weld at 600 when it was pushing 90 and humid and shot all 23 rounds in 8 min out of 25 so I went way to fast. My ultimate goal is to be able to do some PRS stuff but I clearly need to learn some wind, mirage, moa calculations before I go that way. I figure a new piece of glass is the only upgrade for a bit and much more trigger time. Overall it’s fun to shoot stuff and being able to hit a target 6 football fields away feel pretty good and I dare say I had more fun the a day at USPSA. Any tips other than more trigger time and learning from the long range guys that shoot a lot more than me? 600yd  Attached File200 yd  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 7:03:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Skg_Mre_Lght]
[#1]
You aren't going to be very competitive with a 308 and that scope. It is going to be very hard to spot your impacts and misses having to shoot 178gr or heavier bullets in your typical Remington 700. You will also need a good scope with turrets that tracks well when dialing, and a usable reticle for holdover on fast stages, and holding wind. Be sure your reticle and turrets jive, meaning you want mil reticle and mil turrets, or MOA reticle and MOA turrets. You would also alleviate alot of frustration by sticking with a First Focal Plane scope.
Once all of that is said and done, start dry firing and learning positional shooting. Get off the bench, get odd your belly, and learn how to shoot in odd positions. Grab a ladder from your garage and engage multiple targets at different distances from each step from the ladder. Build a 2x4 barricade, and learn to shoot from that. You can use pretty much anything from your garage or shed as an uncomfortable object to learn how to build a stable shooting position. There aren't very many prone stages in a match, unless it's an ELR match, and most stages will be shooting from awkward positions using logs, barrels, pallets, fence panels, lumber, roof tops, etc. Wind, wind, and wind. Learn how to read it, learn to use the natural environment to guesstimate what it's doing between you and the target. Watch videos on how to read wind, read about reading wind, practice reading wind, buy a kestrel to help learn what wind does. You can also use lathe with ribbons to help you understand wind while practicing. Learn to use a ballistic app such as Hornady's 4DF. Watch videos on how to set the program up. It isn't super difficult, but if you use junk data, you will fight it, or any other app, until you put good data into it. Dry fire some more, learn to read wind some more. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 1:24:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Like I said, I am just in the baby step of this whole thing. I know I need better training, better glass and frankly probably a better rifle before I jump to the PRS stuff, but it was so much fun to be able to be on target at this range.
I appreciate your suggestions |
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Posted: 7/4/2020 12:41:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FritzTKatt]
[#3]
I'd be watching your breathing and follow through.. The vertical stringing at 200yds seems excessive, maybe at 600 you're seeing the ES/SD of the ammo a bit, but not at 200. If you're on a bench or prone-supported, you ought to be ringing Xs and 10s all day with any rifle. IIRC the X is 2" and 10 is 6"? A 3moa group from a supported position, slow fire, with an accuracy oriented rifle needs help.
What was the wind like? Don't be afraid to jack up your cheek rest so you can get a solid weld on it, which will really help keep your eye position consistent. I missed what position/support you were using. Definitely get some dryfire/trigger time in position. Definitely slow down on your timed fire. Not just for yourself, but also to keep that barrel cool. Leave the bolt open and chamber empty while you check your spotting scope, watch for shot spotters/scoring, write in log book, etc. Chamber the round when you're ready to fire, but then double check your position/NPOA before firing. The typical sporter will open up around 3-5 shots, that varminter will probably make it to 10. Make sure of that time as stated above. If you're single loading, put a target or something on top of your box to keep the cartridges shaded if you're in the open. ETA: what's your zero? Do you have a dope chart, or reference for your reticle subtenstions? What's the best you've shot with this setup from the most stable position you can (as a reference)? |
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Posted: 7/4/2020 9:21:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mustb123]
[#4]
Practice. Have an experienced shooter look at your shooting rig and don’t get mad if s/he points out flaws in your system.
I had never shot past a couple of hundred yards prior to doing this years ago. Also 200/600 yards. The fellow that let me shoot came by at the 600 yard line and said I was doing ok, for an idiot that had his bi-pod mounted backwards. lol I had to adjust the scope as I fired the string, but overall, it verified I was on track, for someone who had no idea what he was doing.  
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Posted: 7/5/2020 11:12:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FritzTKatt: I'd be watching your breathing and follow through.. The vertical stringing at 200yds seems excessive, maybe at 600 you're seeing the ES/SD of the ammo a bit, but not at 200. If you're on a bench or prone-supported, you ought to be ringing Xs and 10s all day with any rifle. IIRC the X is 2" and 10 is 6"? A 3moa group from a supported position, slow fire, with an accuracy oriented rifle needs help. What was the wind like? Don't be afraid to jack up your cheek rest so you can get a solid weld on it, which will really help keep your eye position consistent. I missed what position/support you were using. Definitely get some dryfire/trigger time in position. Definitely slow down on your timed fire. Not just for yourself, but also to keep that barrel cool. Leave the bolt open and chamber empty while you check your spotting scope, watch for shot spotters/scoring, write in log book, etc. Chamber the round when you're ready to fire, but then double check your position/NPOA before firing. The typical sporter will open up around 3-5 shots, that varminter will probably make it to 10. Make sure of that time as stated above. If you're single loading, put a target or something on top of your box to keep the cartridges shaded if you're in the open. ETA: what's your zero? Do you have a dope chart, or reference for your reticle subtenstions? What's the best you've shot with this setup from the most stable position you can (as a reference)? From listening to the far more experienced shooters wind was 5-10 gusting to 15. I have no idea as i completely forgot to look at the flags. I was shooting prone from a bipod and a rearbag. the 45 rounds shot that day plus the qualification shooting for the range (make sure you dont shoot the front of the range or launch the rounds over the backstop etc so basic) were the first 60 rounds shot from the gun. So 100 yard zero, no dope, no reference at all for the dead hold BDC other than the suggestions that Vortex makes and what you are seeing is the best I shot this rifle so far obviously. We were single loading so the rounds were in a plastic box just to keep them easy around and were definitely toasty by the time I got to the last string being in the direct sun. I definitely agree that I need dry fire and I was scooting all over the place to find my eye box and reticle on the 600 yard line. As i said before, this was just a 5 dollar members match that I shot to get the general etiquette of the NRA matches and I am pretty sure the club is putting them on to get members into the NRA leagues. I had a great time and will definitely be back to shoot it again. |
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Posted: 7/5/2020 11:20:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mustb123: Practice. Have an experienced shooter look at your shooting rig and don’t get mad if s/he points out flaws in your system. I had never shot past a couple of hundred yards prior to doing this years ago. Also 200/600 yards. The fellow that let me shoot came by at the 600 yard line and said I was doing ok, for an idiot that had his bi-pod mounted backwards. lol I had to adjust the scope as I fired the string, but overall, it verified I was on track, for someone who had no idea what he was doing. I agree practice, practice, and then more practice. I said in my other thread that I put the gun together the night before the qualification a couple of weeks ago and am only 400 dollars into the gun between the rifle its self and I upgraded to a harris swivel bipod versus the Chinesiium one from my Son's .22 bolt. So the entire rig is full of flaws. That said it was a great low pressure way to learn the etiquette and flow of a 600 yard match. I will be talking more with guys to get a proper list of things to get like dope book, better scope etc. The Sig academy is just down the road an hour and they have a precision rifle class so when that is open I will take that for this, fun, etc. It is damn fun to hit targets 6 football fields away aint it. 
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Posted: 7/5/2020 3:14:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Double check your hardware. Action screw torque, base to receiver torque, ring to base, ring, etc. Scope level. Bipod on there good? Noticed yesterday I had screws loose on my vortex zero stop, so I had to unfuck my windage. Thankfully it was only 1moa off. Got her fixed up with one group.
What ammo are you using? Do you have a chrono? An accurate MV reading at two good temperature differences will save you tons of trouble. Obviously this is a new rig, so you'll have to wait for cold, but log those hot weather numbers! Find some real world results for the BC of the bullet you're shooting, they are often inflated for advertising. Get a couple free ballistic apps. The free ones are all a bit off, but the truth will lay somewhere in between and get you on target. Strelok is pretty good. Did you log your shots proper or at all? Begin assembling dope. Since you have a BDC, not mil/moa hash reticle, draw your reticle and holds in your notes for different ranges. You can also verify where you're at with the computer and test the scope mechanically. Figure you have to use the second line of BDC, which means jack shit to anyone but you. But the computer says dial up 10 minutes. Both hit. Write that all down. Now you know that spot on the reticle is 10moa. Vortex is pretty good about publishing their subtenstions too. Did you hold or dial on your last shoot? Like I said, keep that ammo shaded. Big difference just being in the shade. Is the hardware bothering you at all? Anything not "right"? Does it fit? Need a stock spacer, or bring the scope back a bit? |
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Posted: 7/5/2020 3:17:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FritzTKatt]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auxcoastie: I agree practice, practice, and then more practice. I said in my other thread that I put the gun together the night before the qualification a couple of weeks ago and am only 400 dollars into the gun between the rifle its self and I upgraded to a harris swivel bipod versus the Chinesiium one from my Son's .22 bolt. So the entire rig is full of flaws. That said it was a great low pressure way to learn the etiquette and flow of a 600 yard match. I will be talking more with guys to get a proper list of things to get like dope book, better scope etc. The Sig academy is just down the road an hour and they have a precision rifle class so when that is open I will take that for this, fun, etc. It is damn fun to hit targets 6 football fields away aint it. My favorite is watching the bullet splash on steel, calling the hit, then waiting for the ding so the naked-eye spectators realize you aren't messing with them. ETA: even more fun with a silencer so you don't need ears and can really hear the steel. Noticed yesterday I can hear the bullet hit cardboard at 200yds. I think at 100 there's not enough delay so the impact gets mixed with the crack/echo. |
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Posted: 7/5/2020 5:59:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FritzTKatt: My favorite is watching the bullet splash on steel, calling the hit, then waiting for the ding so the naked-eye spectators realize you aren't messing with them. ETA: even more fun with a silencer so you don't need ears and can really hear the steel. Noticed yesterday I can hear the bullet hit cardboard at 200yds. I think at 100 there's not enough delay so the impact gets mixed with the crack/echo. |
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Posted: 7/6/2020 12:42:07 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Skg_Mre_Lght: There are no hearing safe suppressors shooting supersonic projectiles. You're not wrong, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not worried about it. Still quieter than just wearing plugs or muffs when indoors. Now it gets bad as a lefty with an AR. |
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Posted: 7/8/2020 2:58:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Long range starts at 800yds. The targets are 6 MOA diameter. The SR target's X-ring is 1.5 MOA. You should be inside that.
If you know your muzzle velocity and atmospherics, input into a calculator to get the predicted trajectory, and compare to the BDC's subtensions. I dunno if you'll have a zero shift through the magnification range, but try different magnifications for better contrast on target. Being 2nd focal plane, the subtensions will change. Nikon's Spot On helps with the math. I don't trust Crossfires to dial true for center crosshair hold, so use the BDC and dial the smaller difference in trajectories. When you're in the middle of the Y-axis, hope for at least a "waterline" group especially on a breezy day. Then you can focus on stategy to round the group. Example: at 9x,the top of the 6:00 post is 11 MOA from center. My load needs 14 MOA for 600yds. Dial 3 MOA up and hold center mass with the post. If 6x happened to be easiest to reference inside the target and makes the most precise groups, that also happens to make the post 16.5 MOA from center, so dial down 2.5 and hold center mass with the post. |
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Posted: 7/10/2020 11:13:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: smoothy8500]
[#12]
Originally Posted By Auxcoastie: The rifle is a Rem 700 .308 26” varminter I was sloppy on the hold and cheek weld at 600 when it was pushing 90 and humid and shot all 23 rounds in 8 min. My ultimate goal is to be able to do some PRS stuff but I clearly need to learn some wind, mirage, moa calculations before I go that way. We all had to start somewhere, and a Remy Varminter is what I started with in F-class. Dialing elevation and especially wind will help you for PRS. Consider a better scope that you can trust the tracking and has a good reticle. Learn to dial and get proficient in reading the wind. Then later, work on using the reticle to hold for wind. One of the over-all benefits of NRA midrange matches is the immediate feedback on your wind calls. Whether it's on your Shotmarker screen or old fashioned spotter disk on the target, you see exactly where you hit in relation to what the wind was doing at that moment. As mentioned by another post, take notes on what you observed the wind doing based on mirage and grass blowing. A little trick we use in NRA Service Rifle on those hot humid days is a little antiperspirant stick on the cheek to help improve cheekweld. 
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