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Posted: 11/29/2011 7:22:50 AM EDT
I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1 Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all. Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one. |
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sierra has warned against using matchking bullets on game animals for a long time. that said a friend of mine used 220 gr SMK loaded subsonic through his 300 WTF (whisper/blk) and killed 2 does with a single bullet .. they will work but are not "optimum"
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I have used the 168's for about 20 years. works fine, never had one go further than 40 yards.(all of my shots are under 100 yards)
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I'll save you the clicking back and forth and copy/paste this one
Quoted: While I appreciate the time you took to post, I wish you had NOT done so. The Sierra Match King behaves just like a FMJ when used for hunting. It is NOT designed to expand in any way, whatsoever. The "hollow point" is NOT relevant and does nothing to promote expansion. Unfortunately, your post gives the impression that hunting with a FMJ (or SMK which is essentially the SAME) is acceptable. To all reasing this: PLEASE consider using a more humane loading, such a bullet specifically designed to expand in game animals. Boy, there's gonna be a bunch of upset guys over on snipershide.com when they hear that they've been smoking the shit out of animals with a bullet that doesn't work... Imagine, if you will (or can), that Sierra suddenly declared that their OTM bullets expanded and were acceptible for hunting. The US military would immediately and forthwith cease ANY purchases of such projectiles, and Sierra's bottom line would do an impression of a lead balloon. Don't you think money COULD have something to do with why they don't recommend a bullet for hunting that has a documented history of working well in that application? Don't you suspect there MIGHT be a reason why the leading reccommended projectile for self-defense in 5.56 applications is currently some form of 69-75 grain OTM bullet? Edit: A quote from a recent SH thread. 175 SMK on a whitetail: As you can see, the exit wound is around 1" in diameter or so. This is the wound in the hide; once skinned, the devastation to the meat around the hole was much, much larger. It appeared as though there was about a 3" hole in the meat, and it was pulled out of the hide's approx. 1" hole. I failed in not taking a picture of the skinned exit wound... but at that point, neither my buddy or I had hands clean enough to handle my iPhone for pictures. So anyway, moral of this story is, just because it's a match bullet does not mean it will produce a .30 hole through and through. We had to trash about half of that front right quarter. The heart- it's pretty tough to see in the picture since its sitting in a pile of other guts to include lungs, but the top half of it was absolutely destroyed. Looked like someone split the top of it in half, then beat the shit out of it with hammers for a while. |
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I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1 Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all. Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one. So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)? Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms.... |
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I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1 Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all. Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one. So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)? Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms.... For me, the winchester ballistic silver tip flys damn near exactly the same as the SMK. I assume it expands well, never recovered one from the deer. TXL |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.
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seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly
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seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder.... |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... |
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I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom. I replied. Here is the link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1 Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all. Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one. So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)? Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms.... For me, the winchester ballistic silver tip flys damn near exactly the same as the SMK. I assume it expands well, never recovered one from the deer. TXL Define never recovered? As in it passed through? |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... |
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seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder.... I view an ethical kill as one that causes minimal pain before death, IOW one that causes a fast death. I look at it like this: ethical shot are ones you would take on yourself, if you want to get shot in the chest and suffer for a little while then have it; likewise, if you want to get shot in the head so it's over quick without feeling much (if anything) then go ahead. But as you said it's in the eye of the beholder. If I hunted based on personal ethics I would be hunting with a Long Bow and an Atlatl, totally primitive. |
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seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder.... I view an ethical kill as one that causes minimal pain before death, IOW one that causes a fast death. I look at it like this: ethical shot are ones you would take on yourself, if you want to get shot in the chest and suffer for a little while then have it; likewise, if you want to get shot in the head so it's over quick without feeling much (if anything) then go ahead. But as you said it's in the eye of the beholder. If I hunted based on personal ethics I would be hunting with a Long Bow and an Atlatl, totally primitive. I like your style! Tomahawks and spears for me! |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. I know there are some bullets that are designed to expand at subsonic velocities. This place for example makes some: Outlaw State Bullets And I know you're a little strapped there in the freedom restricting state of Texas, but some of us in free states are allowed to hunt with suppressors. |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Yeah, I'll get right on that.... Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail I can live with that, I just love how my rifle shoots 68-78 grain bullets. This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy..... |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Yeah, I'll get right on that.... Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail I can live with that, I just love how my rifle shoots 68-78 grain bullets. This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy..... Damn, now I want to make the above.... I spent $90,000 over two years to get one sentence written in the law. Do not tell me it can't be done.... |
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I have been using SMKs for 6 years. I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets. I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate.
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I have been using SMKs for 6 years. I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets. I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate. Not saying anyone is wrong for using smk on deer. But if the manufacture says a bullet is not the best choice for deer hunting, and then you go use that bullet for deer hunting, and it doesn't perform well, its not the bullets fault, its yours for choosing the wrong bullet. Just because something works for you doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job. A surplus deuce and a half with manual transmission, no power steering or personnel heater will work for getting me from my home to my office, mi with a 27 mile commute that takes am hour and a half in heavy traffic it sure isn't the best choice. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I have been using SMKs for 6 years. I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets. I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate. Not saying anyone is wrong for using smk on deer. But if the manufacture says a bullet is not the best choice for deer hunting, and then you go use that bullet for deer hunting, and it doesn't perform well, its not the bullets fault, its yours for choosing the wrong bullet. Just because something works for you doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job. A surplus deuce and a half with manual transmission, no power steering or personnel heater will work for getting me from my home to my office, mi with a 27 mile commute that takes am hour and a half in heavy traffic it sure isn't the best choice. I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed earlier: Don't you think it's conceivable that Sierra wold continue to claim the SMK should not be used for hunting in spite of extensive experience to the contrary, if changing their stance would cost the company significantly in the form of government contracts? If the SMK is such a poor round for the job, why has the 69-75 grain SMK been the most highly recommended SD round for the 5.56 for quite some time now? |
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Been using SMKs on deer and pronghorns for years.
They work fine. Just like anything else, gotta hit what you're aiming at. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Killed a pile of deer with SMK's. 30 cal 168's, 175's and 240's. It all comes down to shot placement.
Pmc
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Wow, CBR900, gets all up in a tizzy and uppity on that thread where guys are trying to tell him he does not now what he speaks of, and makes another post to get people to come to his side.
1st CBR900 is correct in that the SMK is not designed to expand at all., my understanding is that all match bullets are non expanding( I was using 178gr AMAX subsonic with the same devastating results) Things to keep in perspective, The Round was subsonic There are only a few manufacturers that produce a .30 caliber bullet that expands at subsonic velocities. That means that your favorite hunting soft point in .308 will not expand at subsonic velocities Long heavy for caliber projectiles have been proven time and time again to tumble on impact at subsonic velocities. Thus creating devastating wound channels. Deer Hunting is all about SHOT PLACEMENT. How many deer were "unethically shot" using a .300 super duper magnum that catches your hair on fire when fired. but the animal not recovered Also my experiences have shown less meat damage with a well placed shot from a subsonic verses a .308 Winchester at standard velocities, minor point but important to some people none the less. If You do Not wish to hunt with subsonic fine, but do not tell me that I am an unethical hunter considering all the deer I have shot with subsonics have been quickly harvested, and more and more hunters are producing the same results. I really wonder if 1928A1 in the other thread had said he used a 220 gr pro hunter sierra bullet would CBR900 even realized that the bullet would not have expanded at the velocities shot? |
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But if the manufacture says a bullet is not the best choice for deer hunting, and then you go use that bullet for deer hunting, and it doesn't perform well, its not the bullets fault, its yours for choosing the wrong bullet.
There's a difference between "not the best choice" and "a bad choice" Just because something works for you doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job.
And just because it's not the best doesn't mean it won't work just fine. Why would I use a bullet that doesn't shoot that well just because it's made to expand? If it's not as consistant you risk bad shot placement and cause more harm than good (as far as we're concerned). If I have a bullet that I know I can put through the heart first time, every time, I'm not going to be concerned with the expansion. If you get shot through the heart with a non-expanding bullet, I can just about guarantee that you won't go as far as you would if you got shot in the stomach with an expanding bullet. |
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I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet. Those aren't subsonic.... You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic? Why not? What's their minimum velocity for expansion? I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States.... Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities? YES Why hunt with subsonics anyway? It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor. HAVE THE LAW CHANGED Yeah, I'll get right on that.... Supersonic is fine for my purposes. I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr. It will do a fine job, but I personally do not think you need more than the 62gr TSX for whitetail I can live with that, I just love how my rifle shoots 68-78 grain bullets. This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy..... Damn, now I want to make the above.... I spent $90,000 over two years to get one sentence written in the law. Do not tell me it can't be done.... That is fantastic, great job. |
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I have shot a lot of deer with 69 grn SMKs they have worked fine every time, there are better choices though, 75 grn Tap works really well. 70 grn TSX works very well also.
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