Link to PDF notice sent to all emergency providers

Can't read the pdf on my phone... Cheap knock offs? Unlicensed copies? A tourniquet seems like a pretty simple machine, so I'm wondering what our exposure is as potential end users. Seems like the sort of thing that would be more of an economic concern to the company than a safety concern to us. Not that I'm condoning violation of IP laws, just wondering if it's a concern for us.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Do the knockoffs actually work? If not then that's a problem. If they do, then... so what?

The company that makes them (element) makes airsoft replicas of gear.

These are probably marketed to airsofters looking to mimic a gear loadout they saw a picture of where the hi-speed dudes rubber band them to their plate carriers.  An accessory for show, not for actual use as a tourniquet.

Nothing in the pdf mentions any kind of functional difference, or if they are not as effective.

Looks like another company wants people to be mad about paying less for nearly identical things.  Maybe some day one of these companies will pay me to give a damn, but until then...

The windlass and the ears that keep the windlass in place are possible failures.

A real CAT costs about $30. I see no reason to buy a fake one when the sole purpose of this device is to save your life.

People will spend untold amounts of money on firearms yet think skimping on lifesaving equipment, that doesn't cost much in the first place, is a good idea.

Looking at the PDF, on slide 3 it says that you can't tighten the fake tourniquet because the windlass will flex. I do suppose that would make it nonfunctioning.

And 18" of paracord and a 5 inch piece of aluminum dowel will do the same thing for about $1.50...

I dont think I could be effective with that setup one handed.

While that would be better than doing nothing remember a big reason we prep is so we dont force ourselves to improvise from the start. We have the luxury of being to obtain this equipment now why not procure it before something ridiculous happens like they require a Rx for one.

take a look at this article:
http://www.tacmedsolutions.com/blog/?p=125#more-125

You'd be surprised, considering it's technology that's existed for better than a thousand years... BUT, don't get me wrong... I think CATs are neat, and maybe one day I'll buy some, but from my own POV:

1: To outfit the FAKs in all my GHBs, BOBs and standard first aid kit, I'd spend between 180 and 210 dollars for something that there's a 99.99% chance I'll never use.
2: I can get the same out of about 10 - 15 dollars worth of material and spend the difference (nearly 200.00) on things I'm MORE likely to need, or need to rotate out like food, ammunition, a better folding knife, better hatchet, fire starting materials, etc.
3: What that article really points out to me is not so much HERP DERP improvised tourniquets suck as You are fucked if you try applying an improvised tourniquet and don't know what you're doing.

A belt makes a TERRIBLE tourniquette.  The width spreads the load across a greater area of flesh, reducing it's ability to choke off severed blood vessles.  The lack of ability to torque it down with the twisting means you can't get enough real tightness to be effective.  A cravat and a stick would be FAR more effective than some dude's leather belt.  and paracord and a metal dowel even more so.

And, in reality, unless you're lucky, if the tourniquet goes on, the appendage is coming off.  By the time you get to the hospital, you're more than likely going to be in a spot where the only option is amputation (unless, like the guy in the article, this happens when you're close enough to an ambulance and a hospital that the extremity can be salvaged).  People with no medical training running around slapping tourniquets on scare me, not meaning you, you could be a doctor for all I know, just the average person running around with a Super Trauma IFAK with Tier 1 Battlefield Surgical Equipment who don't even know how to properly apply an ACE bandage or a splint.

I agree with you 100% that proper training, knowledge and practice will always trump gear and equipment. I dont discount the fact that improvisation is an important attribute.

I hear you on cost. It all comes down to each individual's priorities. I myself beleive I have a higher chance of needing to use medical supplies whether it be on the range or during my commute. Everyone is different.

In regards to your last paragraph. The last ten plus years of war have not only introduced new concepts on when to use/apply touniquets in the field but also what to do with them in the OR. Pre-hospital care has always dictated to use a TQ as a last resort or not at all but now its "Touniquet First!" so to speak. As a result, proper use of a TQ doesnt automatically equal amputation. Some patients have to presented to the OR who have had a TQ in place for over four hours with no amputation needed. Of course, there are many variables involved but its promising nonetheless.

thin cord like that does more damage then good.

complete and udder bullshit. a belt works just fine as long as its applied correctly. also, the use of a tourniquet does NOT mean the limb is coming off. using that piece of paracord probably means its coming off but a properly installed tourniquet can save a limb for several hours. last i heard was 6 hours conservatively and up to 8. your knowledge is out of date and is dangerous.

CAT is the perfect width to stop bloodflow, and can be put on with one hand (most important part).

To the guy saying use paracord: I would love to see a race between you and someone with a CAT on self applying a TQ

+1 on the Tac Med course.  I took one for my dept and the class was very informative.  We also had some real hands on time with all of the popular commercial tourniquets out there.  There is a difference and some of them really suck.  Others are OK and some are great.  Also going hands on with some pig shanks was great for examining/probing bullet wounds and seeing what it takes to stop real bleeding.  The days of putting a tourniquet on and losing the limb are all but gone.  Still plenty of risks, but they sure beat dying.

...back on topic
I believe the issue with bogus CAT's comes into play when the windlass is tightened and the inner nylon ribbon that runs around the strap is a weak POS copy, it can stand a good chance of breaking.  Same goes for the windlass itself and the other components.  Stopping arterial bleeding can take some pressure and it seems to me that a situation where it is needed would be the worst time to find out that a fake or "good enough" copy wasn't up to par.  Seems odd that some here would blow this off, but no where else on this site would anyone be caught dead recommending Airsoft gear... but tourniquets get a pass.

If you look carefully, you'll find loads of fake mil-med supplies on places like Ebay.  The field surgical kits were popular for a while. Priced like genuine, and chock full of dead soft pakistani stainless steel junk.

 

What most of these guys have said - TQ's are awesome.  $22 piece of velcro and plastic saving lives.

To really hit on one m193 said with the binding or better even pinching.  Go get the MET and put that sucker on bare skin and see how long you last that thing is painful.

Most fakes are from Gen III CAT's.  I have not seen many fakes from Gen V and VI CAT's, they have the RedTip, Fatter Windless, and White strap with "TIME" on it.

For clarity, E-CAT is the fake.  Clif Notes for ya:

The E-CAT windlass will fold back on itself without breaking; however, you cannot tighten a tourniquet with it.

The hook and loop used to secure the (E-CAT) windlass into the windlass lock will likely drop off the windlass lock - the glue is dry and does not hold.



Looks like the packaging is the easiest way to identify the fake, along with the fact that it doesn't have a manufacture date printed on the webbing.

Please get training and understand that tournys can hurt more than help. In short the only time they should be used is when all other methods of bleeding control have failed. You must understand that everything distal to the tourny is likely going to become dead tissue and you will lose the limb.

This information could not be further from the truth. Training is very important but it must be current training. It has been stated multiple times in this thread that risk of amputation is very different in today's world versus ten years ago in regards to commercial field touniquet use.

I urge you to look up current EMS, TCCC, CLS and prehospital protocols about TQs.

13er's are funny  

Well it has been over 10yrs since emt and medic school. But in my career thus far after working many shootings, stabbings and machinery accidents ive never needed to apply a tourny and dont see the them being anything but harmful in a novice   hands. We all have our pov and this is mine. Know why youer using it everyone just because its tacticool doesn't make it your best option..

PHTLS is not "tacticool".  Go read up on the last 10 years of research by some of the best in the business of trauma medicine.  PHTLS-TCCC Info - This link has most of the research papers published on tourniquets with THIS  one from 2007 showing some very basic numbers.

That comment recommending paracord really made me cringe!  

TKs aren't a terrific first option in many scenarios, but they can be in some.  I've seen a few classes teach TKs as a last resort, then say that in any "under fire" situation, go straight for the TK so you can focus on other stuff and not bleed out/get shot while giving first aid.  So, if time is an issue, slap one on right now!  If you have time and energy, take your basic pressure dressings, elevation, and pressure points first.

Even pressure points and elevation have been removed from most curriculum.  HERE is the National Registry skill sheet for bleeding control and pressure points and elevation on not on it, it is direct pressure then a tourniquet.  PHTLS does not teach them any more as well.

that a good Idea...get a fake that will break when you need it most

The total misinformation in this thread is astounding... a lot of internet commandos... or at least, very misinformed people...

One of the single greatest things to come from the war on terror is excellent field medical practices. As a result, we are losing fewer and fewer lives on the battlefield. Most basic combat first-aid course aimed at the average Warfighter (not the combat medic) teach, "When in doubt, put a TQ on it". Why is that? The risk of loss of limb due to the TQ is actually pretty slim. Even on mis-applied TQ's limbs are often saved. You have several hours from application of a TQ to the point that you will lose the limb. On a severe bleeder you only have a minute before you bleed out in some cases. So when in doubt, apply a TQ... always... There are very few things you can do with the appliation of one that can't be reversed when you reach proper medical professionals. OTOH, if you don't apply it when you should have the same cannot be said.  




Same here... the paracord + flashlight is my buddy's chosen method... I tried to talk him out of it but no go... He's set in his ways...

Try applying that with one hand... EVERYBODY should practice with their TQ's, always... what good will it be if you fumble and bleed out before you get the flow stopped? I can put a SOFTT-W TQ on in ~30s one-handed, even faster given the right circumstances. You won't even have the paracord looped around and attached to the dowel in that amount of time. That's not to mention the previously mentioned downfalls to paracord...

That's just my uneducated opinion. I am not a combat medic or EMT, but I have gone through the basic pre-deployment medical training and spent 6 months of my life in AFG...

RB's comments (in red) are in line with my training on TQ's.  I won't be using paracord, I'll stick with SOF-T's or CAT's.





FWIW some of the real CAT's have had issues snapping, I'm sure the airsoft copy is even weaker.



ETA: I only use the CAT's with the red tab - older ones are a no go.





 

Ain't that the truth.


When in doubt, put a tourniquet on.  This is a settled issue and a solved problem.  The CATs are great, and cheap.  Improvise if you have to, but if you're planning ahead (that's why we're here, right?) buy the right tool for the job.

Others have nicely addressed most of the ancient tourniquet lore, but there are a few other things I'll add to this thread -

1) A tourniquet will give you time to think about your next move when you're not bleeding all over the place.  Some injuries truly need professional medical attention, but you know what happens to a lot of combat casualties when they hit the trauma bay?  We let down the tourniquet and pretty easily get distal control of the bleeding with pressure and good dressings.  Using a tourniquet, even if getting to a hospital isn't possible, doesn't necessarily mean accepting limb loss.

2) Tourniquets hurt after a few minutes.  After 30 minutes or so, they hurt a lot.  Like, really really a lot.  Often far more than the actual injury, and tourniquet pain is surprisingly resistant to pain meds, even really potent IV narcotics.  It will be hard for a person with a tourniquet to think, much less function, an hour or so later.  Something to think about and maybe mentally prepare yourself if you're ever the one who needs a tourniquet.  Absent rx pain meds, it will hurt more than you think anything can possibly hurt.

3) There's nothing wrong with letting down a tourniquet yourself if you get control of distal bleeding.  In the heat of the moment, a bloody injury may seem worse than it is.  Don't hesitate to put a tourniquet on ... then take a breath (see point #1).  Assess the wound, dress it ... and maybe you can just let the tourniquet down.

That is true and a good point.  There can be a solid physiologic hit right after the tourniquet is released.  As you say, mostly seen with extended times.