Is anyone familiar with flash bainite armor?  They claim to be, pound for pound, the strongest armor known to man.

Has anyone used this armor before?

I found these YouTube videos, but wondered if anyone else has had any interaction with it?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax13qN51reg

bad link.

Correct link attached.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=furOMN2ZuBA

http://www.bainitesteel.com/

Who would want to trust an armor company who posts youtube videos?

Ha, I can assure you that I am not employed by Flash Bainite.  Considering they are located in Michigan, and the videos are clearly not Michigan, unless the Rocky Mountains, the entire countryside and Montana has now been removed to Michigan.

Nice try though.  I was very skeptical of the armor, asked for a test plate, they provided me with one that was partially treated (as seen in the one video that says no hit, and you can clearly see the treated portion) and a fully treated silhouette.  From my results, it appears that it is quite strong.  Now I am asking if anyone else has used it.

Sorry bud, but I am no way in Michigan.  Unless you have been to a part of Michigan that looks like that!

??? Where is all that coming from? I haven't clicked on the youtube link.

If their product is as good as they say, what government hardware is using their steel? Do they have any contracts?

Where is this coming from?

And I quote: "Who would want to trust an armor company who posts youtube videos?"

The allegation, although subtle, is that because I posted the videos that I work for the armor company.  I do not work for them, I found them just like you just did when you googled them, and the first link was Flash Bainite.

If you didn't click on the Youtube video, why the allegation?  

As for the contracts, etc., that is a great question.  I wish I knew, but I don't.  I am just like all of you, preparedness minded, and looking for the best way to protect my family.

Uh, no. Loosen the tin foil a bit. His comment was a vocalization of what I was thinking, which was "YouTube?" While I realize that lots of companies use YouTube for hosting product demonstration videos, it's still YouTube, home of fart pranks and funny cat videos.



 

Do you have a link to the company?

I'm curious too on how it compares to standard AR500 plate. Sounds like it's an additional surface hardening...interesting.

edit: even more interesting, it's not surface hardening, sounds like it's a different tempering process.

Perhaps you are right.  From what I was reading, it seemed as if he was alluding to the fact that Flash Bainite, company proper, was posting videos via Youtube, even though, as you stated, is a common practice.

One child screaming in one ear, getting ready for Christmas and a wife who is panicking over Christmas, may have made me a bit on edge.

Thank you for telling me to settle my nerves and look at it without my emotions.  Apologies for my response, that was, in retrospect, over the top.  

That is my understanding also.  The heating, quenching and tempering is different than all other types of AR500.  They claim to be the strongest AR500 metal known to man as a result of this process.

I wish I knew more about metals, etc.

What good is the strength of the armor if it is not the best to use for your purpose?

I wish they made Chobham concealable body armor so I will be protected against HEAT rounds.


What is your intended application?

That is a great question.  Wife and 4 kids, I imagine that light weight, and able to resist, handgun and rifle rounds.  Since .223 is very common here (wolf hunting) that is my biggest concern.  Also, the very active and dedicated hunters utilize .300 Win Mag for elk, etc.  In a SHTF scenario, I imagine if I am at my house, I might have to worry about some sniper (many hunters can kill an elk from 600+ yards, pretty good shooting in my mind) trying to take me out from 100+ yards.


What are heat rounds? Are these commercially available?

From their website:

Flash Bainite is the Strongest, Most Ductile, Lean Alloyed, Readily Weldable, Least Costly Maximum Strength METAL known to man. A50 tensile ranges from 1100 to 2080MPa (160-302ksi) with 8 to 9% elongation.  Total elongation up to 10-11% is not uncommon.  Flash 500 at 1900MPa and 9% elongation exceeds titanium-6Al-4V's strength to weight ratio making it pound per pound stronger at only 56% the volume. Flash 500 is 10% the cost of Ti-64.

"Off the shelf" sheet, plate, and tubing can be made into Flash Bainite. Triple the strength of Chrome Moly, Flash 4140 is pound for pound 2X stronger than 6061-T6 aluminum. If you are "lightweighting" structure with aluminum, Flash Bainite will do a better job at far less weight and cost.

Environmentally friendly, this process consumes less than a half Kwatt of energy per Kg of steel processed (less than a penny/pound). Water is used instead of polluting oils or molten salt. With 4 years of research, Ohio State University has determined the alloy mechanism that allows Bainite to be transformed in about 80ms.  Many of the world's leading metallurgists have reviewed Flash Processing and fully agree.  Flash Processing is unique technology to make lean alloyed steel stronger and more ductile than ever before.

Also, this addresses their body armor.  I would be interested if anyone else has tried this before.  

http://www.bainitesteel.com/FlashBainite.pdf

EDIT:  It is not a new type of steel, or armor.  It is a new process that makes the steel stronger than any other previous metals.

Any metallurgists out that can even tell me if this is real?

HEAT=High Explosive Anti-Tank

Basically armor piercing explosive warheads.  IIRC,

Not sure why that was asked, I just skimmed through the thread.  And no, HEAT rounds are not commercially available, since they aren't traditional firearms cartridges, rather warhead based technology.  (I think they come in mortar flavor?)  You can get HEAT rounds for a 203, recoiless rifle, a tank main gun, rockets, ect.

Is this body armor or just steel targets? If it's body armor I'd like to see how it holds up to the age old problem with steel plates and that being splatter from the round.

The frags that are coming off are going to be the same danger with this, as will all hard face. Rhino lining seems to work pretty well though.

I can't see how the process would mitigate spall.

How would one go about limiting or eliminating that problem?  Could a lip be created that would capture or deflect the frags?

De-spall it with an overlay of kevlar, or a softer matrix bonded to the metal to slow or capture the frags.  Even G-10 would help.. there was a thread on here a while ago about de-spalling hard plate.  This bainite would perhaps be useful in hardening a vehicle, if body armor is a no-go.

It doesn't, and does not claim to.
It would need spall lining, just like ceramic plates.





 

You can't really "de-spall" it, all you can do is mitigate the effects. The plate itself doesn't have much of a spall effect, at least not compared to the frags of the jacket and core that come off. Those are the real issues. It will always throw frags off when hit, trapping them is about all you can do, and that's limited in lifespan of hits. Then again, no one plans on taking multiple hits and still using it. On another forum I've bought into a group buy on AR500 rhino lined plates. It took a while, but the guys testing it were able to trap up to four 7.62x51 FMJ rounds, at 100 yards. Five rounds defeated the anti-frag rhino lining, but four rounds is pretty impressive. If you want to take it further, as you say, run a kevlar sleeve on it. But it'll also bulk it up. Otherwise, sure, a lip might work, at least at the top. Other parts of your body are still going to get frags though. Arms, thighs, etc.  IAC the polyurethane lining seems to work pretty well.

There was a huge thread in the GD forum that dealt with this exact problem....despalling AR500 used for BA plates. He was successful.

Let me try an dig it up.

Here it is: de-spall  (thanks to the bros in GD for digging this up for me in about 20 sec)

Why is this in the SF? Doesn't this belong in Armory, maybe the Tactical Forum?

This is probably the process that my fiancee's mom was telling me about just a month or so ago. The family owns a metalworking business that does strictly custom jobs, and we were discussing different grades of steel for armor purposes. She told me about some new steel or new treating process (I do not know much about this topic, so I am not sure which it was) that was created as the result of glass recycling plants having the flying shards of glass impact the back of their machines and wear the steel out over time. She said that whatever it was, would probably make better armor than AR500.

Now, this is an area I know almost nothing about, but there were a few other metals that she guessed would be better than AR500 for armor, while still being relatively affordable. I guess the "AR" number is related to how strong the steel is, or something like that, as she said they also work with AR400 and other numberical grades of it.

Most every company nowadays has a Youtube channel , Facebook/Twitter pages, etc.- its a superb marketing strategy.

There's a somewhat technical explanation about the process in this PDF presentation:
http://chapters.sme.org/069/technov07.pdf

...and an article confirming the claims on Phys.org
http://phys.org/news/2011-06-lighter-stronger-steel-.html

Very interesting stuff!

It works by rapidly heating, then quenching the steel in water just 80ms after the heating process. Metallurgists say it shouldn't work, yet it does. What happens is it forms a very uniform dispersion of marsenite, ausenite and bainite crystelline structures within the steel, with any cobalt and carbon being evenly distributed among the matrices.

It sounds like you could make things from 1/3rd the thickness of steel, but still have the same strength. Would be excellent for vehicle chassis or gun barrels (though they can't process anything as thick as a gun barrel quite yet).

Another youtube video, M193 vs treated and untreated Flash Bainite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax13qN51reg

If you notice in the video, they have the targets up against a osb board. This puts much more stress on the steel than free hanging. I have seen AR500 that was not free hanging take more damage than hanging.

It would be sweet to have 1/8" steel that would handle a few hits from 3006 rounds.

I saw some Bainite steel plates on Ebay yesterday then read this thread. Here's the link:

Bainite Plates on Ebay

ETA: Looks like the same company

When I hear Bainite I think of katana's.

EDIT : Example : http://www.cashanwei.com/product/hunter-katana/sh2471

and



So did you "find" the video or did you make and post the videos.  Considering the YouTube account name, your account name and the strange unwarranted defensiveness I would say you made the videos.  If that is the case why would you start the thread with "I found these YouTube videos."  I personally don't care why you want to talk about this steel because I find it interesting but a little honesty goes a long way.  Now I have to wonder about your motives all because you "found" the videos.  I would suggest a product review post then ask if anyone has experience.

$80 for one pair of the best steel plates in the hopes that you trust their word on the performance capability? Why the poor finishing?

They need to hand out samples to shooters who will run independent tests.

Let the armor speak for itself.

I understand that but the manufacturer's website looks like something from the 1990s.



Going back to the armor, it looks like it has application towards vehicles as the armor is weldable. It doesn't appear to be geared for body worn armor.

you found Youtube videos that you made?

"What ammo are you shooting?"



"Oh. I don't know."



I don't own plates yet, but if that was how they are getting word about their product out, I won't be looking into it when I'm ready to purchase.

I think the jury's out on the product so far.  It does seems to get some interesting properties (extremely high yield strength combined with some ductability)  I'm not an expert on armor fabrication, but normal batches of armor plate are much thicker and their process isn't automatically scalable (The rapid (flash) production of banite isn't going to be as easy as the steel gets thicker.)

I'd be more convinced if they quit citing  locations of the test, and started citing the actual laboratories and provided the test reports.  Does this armor still work at 0 deg F?, -30 F?, 130 deg F.  I've conducted penetration tests at a major military base.  Essentially some friends of mine and I shot at old police department vests (they wanted something done to the vests to make them obviously unusable).  Just because testing was done on a military base, even a famous one, doesn't mean it was scientific, or even done with the knowledge of DOD.  The PD provided 200 rds of 357, as the chief was curious if the out of date vests had any significant failure (they didn't in 200 rds).  That was as close to scientific as we got, except for maybe counting how many vests a .223 could go through.

Also note, for body armor, their numbers are significantly worse than ESAPI plates.

If the product is what it claims to be, it would have a lot of potential for structural applications where weight is critical (aerospace, vehicles, etc).  But they need a lot more information like results of welding, fatigue, forming, temperature resistance, etc.

I'd be a lot more impressed if the test was done by a community college graduate at HP White, then a bunch of vague references to PhDs, a state university, and some famous military base.   Also be nice if they claimed some sort of industry standard measurement (V0, V50) instead of saying "has stopped".  Is that like V99.99 (It stoped one bullet, but 9999 made it through.)

One is kind of reminded of Dragon Skin.

You are right.  I should have put I found these plates, not videos, because I was trying to garner others opinions.  

If you notice, I responded to his post telling him sorry.  One kid crying in my ear, and the wife in the other, I was a little on edge.

I can assure you, I am not employed by them.  I am only interested in protecting my family.  I am an Iraqi vet who is injured, I can appreciate your concern, but you should let the video speak for itself.  Sorry again for the mis-labeling of the thread.

If I'm reading this stuff right, the rapid quenching reminds me of that movie where the guy is using a barrel of water to dunk his gun in after every shot.

If the process that is used basically only provides a thin surface treatment, that means the thicker the plate, the more like regular AR500 it will act. BUT, since they claim it is weldable, I wonder if they could take a stack of thin plates that have been treated (and, in theory, be nearly homogenously better) and essentially weld them together to make a laminate of their "magic" AR500?

I know there was a lengthy thread somewhere on ARFcom about various body armor materials.  I can't seem to find it.  Can someone post a link?

Body armor thread

Hello All,

My name is Gary Cola.  I am the developer/producer of Flash Bainite.  We are making 2x11 foot panels of Flash Bainite with a proprietary process, four patents pending.  It is a through thickness heat treatment that makes the steel 260,000 pounds per square inch strong but still 10-12% ductile in a 2" (50mm) pull test.  We have made thicknesses from 0.040" to 3/8" thick.  We have also made tubing that absorbs crash energy 20-30% better than the best steels the car companies are now using.  We have engaged with OEMs that account for 25% of the world's vehicle production already.

I have met with US Army Aberdeen Test Center Director, three of his branch chiefs, the Army's top metallurgist that actually writes the mil specs for all metal armors.  Starting the meeting is said, bottom line up front, "the US Army data from four of your labs shows that Flash Bainite is, pound for pound, the strongest, most ballistically resistant, readily weldable METAL known to man".  They all looked at the chief metallurgist who smiled, nodding his head in agreement.  I am happy to share the abstract from the Army report that says Flash will save weight, reduce costs, and improve performance.  We also have unclassified ballistic reports showing all this from US Army Aberdeen Test Center.

So far, 1/4" Flash 500 is stopping:
26 shots of 30.06M2 ball at 50 feet in a 4x6" pattern
SS109 green tip (M855) at 50 feet with 3 shots in a 1" circle
M193 at over 2800fps (barrel length and rifle type affect velocity so you just cant say AR15)
0.30-cal M2AP at 0d obliquity as well as 3/8" RHA or High Hard 500
20mm FSP better than any other metal armor of equal areal density including titanium, aluminum, steel or magnesium.

6mm thick (0.236") Flash 600 just tested yesterday is stopping:
5.56-M193 at 3200fps from our 22" bolt action.  This makes a slower muzzle round from and AR15 a no-brainer.
30.06 M2 ball barely dents the panel too.

We are selling on Ebay.com to 31 states and many dozens of customers just to get the word out.  Multiple customers are asking to put up YouTube videos because of the high performance they are finding compared to old fashioned AR500.  I could paint the Ebay panels and charge $20 more but the thought is to put "The Best AR500" in your hands to buy your own can of spray paint for a few dollars.

Flash Bainite has received record setting results at 5 US Army Labs.  You would think that would make the Army give us scale up money to make 4x12 foot panels to help the Warfighters.  Unfortunately, 4 years ago a good friend of the Director of the local Army facility demanded full exclusive rights to Flash Bainite. We refused and were blackballed.  If you think Dragon Skin was a smear job, that was nothing compared to our history.  Some of the Generals I know acknowledge that soldiers have died because of Flash Bainite not being deployed already.  It is an ugly story of how power and greed corrupt.

Hello Country_Boy,

Just being new to this blogging, i dont see where i can post our record setting reports against 0.30-cal M2AP from US Army Aberdeen Test Center.  I would be pleased to email you a copy of the paperwork since it's not classified.  It would be awesome if you could look at the reports and post on this blog that they are the real deal.

A 1/4" Flash Bainite 500 had a V50 against 0.30-cal M2AP at 0d obliquity of 2080-2255fps in numerous tests.  The passing spec of Mil Dtl 12560J for 1/4" is 1596fps and for 0.435" is 2252fps.  As everyone knows, Mil Dtl 12560J RHA stops 0d obliquity M2AP at 1/4" thick better than Mil Dtl 46100E High Hard 500.

Flash Bainite has nothing to hide and I will answer every question posed.  Some of you might be familiar with Atlas Shrugged and the story of Rearden Metal . . .  the story of my last few years for sure!

Hello Flashbainite,

Your discovery sounds exciting with a lot of potential!

As an entrepreneur, I'm curious what led to the discovery of your process?

Thanks for the interest.  In a nutshell . . .

In 2nd grade, i was amazed at the hot strip mill at Ford Rouge Steel.  Feeling the heat radiating walking on the catwalk left a lasting impression.  Eleven years later, I went to Lawrence Tech University, blew a four year free ride cuz i was so busy working, and then barely passed my material science classes to get out in 5 years.

I opened a machine shop cutting dies for the stamping industry.  After cutting, recutting, and recutting again bodyside and hood dies with different amounts of "spring back" to get the parts right, i figured that their had to be a better way.  I woke up one morning and decided i was going to make better steel.  I naively thought, how hard could it be.  

After 5 years of running thousands of tests with a custom oxy-propane torch, a sump pump in a plastic trash can for water spray, and dozens of steel alloys, we figured out that we had something.  The exec director of the AutoSteel Partnership said in the nicest way he could that i was the only one "stupid" enough to run those thousands of tests.  It was a compliment because he knew what we achieved.

Flash Bainite was then banned from AutoSteel by the big steel companies because we make 50% stronger and more ductile steel in 5 seconds with less energy than they can in a 7 story tall furnace in 10 minutes.  Above you read about the first Army Lab blackballing us and then 4 Army Labs loving Flash. It's too bad that four A+'s can be blocked by extortion.  Of course we cannot forget a professor at Colorado School of Mines that never did a minute of work on Flash yet he wrote uneducated, smear papers in Association of Iron and Steel Technology's "Transactions" journals.  Everyone said the technology wouldnt scale up.

Determined, we bought a $350K Induction heating unit on Ebay brand new but a few years old for $20K.  We then built a Pilot Production line for 2x11 foot panels.  See Flash Bainite on facebook for pictures of the line and "like" us if you want to get updates that will be coming quick on the AR600 body armor, much appreciated.

We have done our homework and are "schooling" quite a few folks that are ready to learn.  The AR600 i mention is really frag-resistant, readily weldable Ultra Hard Armor that has met the criteria for US Army Mil Dtl 32332.  It has already tested at 290-302ksi at 8-10% elongation.  The current best UHA is 310ksi but only 5-6% elongation making less tough, almost a ceramic like steel that just shatters when hit by blast frags.  Flash 600 actually bends.  The welding of Flash can be done at room temp with no preheating/post tempering which is unheard of.  It is also less than 3% alloy compared to 5-8% costly alloy of other UHA.

Selling Body Armor on Ebay was a great way to gain exposure, now sold in 31 states just since Thanksgiving.  I spoke with my local US Senate staffer the other day as i am concerned some "Mothers of Wounded Soldiers" group is going to find out that anyone in the US can buy better 1/4" steel on Ebay than our soldiers are protected by somewhere in the Sand.  Sometimes i feel like a cornered animal with all the criticism.  However, the claws of the data we collected from all the Army Labs are fierce.  Flash Bainite will not be stopped unless they put a bullet in my back . . . which will have to go through Flash AR600!!!

thanks again for the interest.

Bravo Mr Reardon

To BatmanACW,

Thanks for the great metallurgists at The Ohio State University that helped decipher the atoms to explain our Flash Bainite technology's inner workings.

And thanks too for the Rearden compliment.  There is a difference though, "Rearden Metal is not for sale" . . . but minority ownership in Flash Bainite is and 37 people have bought in with two more talking right now.

So what does each one of your plates weigh?

Curious about the weight as well

Same as any other steel 40.84 lbs/sq ft times thickness in inches/  1/4 would be 10.2 lbs/sq ft

The steel is nothing special, in one product, they claimed it was (I think) 4140.  What's neat is they get bainite, rather the martinisite that normally ocours when steel is rapidly cooled or  perlite when it is slowly cooled.  Making banite is well known, but not this rapidly.  When was involved in metalurgy when in college, I ran a bunch of casting through a heat treater to get banite, but it took days to weeks- At the time they wasn't agreement on exactally how it formed, but it was formed under defined conditions, usu.ally involving long slow cools (and of course, thay may have been lying as well- it's not like I was abel to take micrographs- and the ovens were sealed.)

If this stuff is viable, it will be because they figured out how to maximize the performance of "cheap" steel, with what sounds like a process without a lot of limits, at least in thin sections (6" armor plate for naval use may be out of the question.)  Just from what I've seen here and in an article or two, there are other products that duplicate the preformace- at much higher prices (ie Maraging Steel)

I'm a real smart engineer, but I'm not a chemist or crystalographer.  Some of aspects of ferious metal metalurgy seem like PFM the way iron and carbon, influanced by a few elements like Silicon and Suphur can produce such a wide variety of results