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Posted: 10/9/2007 4:49:03 AM EDT
ETA: FOR all those who won't read the entire thread before responding. I appreciate the responses and have a better appreciation for the need of armor in an every-day or SHTF situation. that was the purpose of the OP- to have some fun, kill some time, and learn about an area I was ignorant to. I accomplished all three in this thread. This wasn't meant to poke fun, look down, or flame any who chose to use plate carriers. Though i still feel milk and cookies would resolve any issue i could run in to...
all this in response to a "plate carrier thread" posted by Aim4MyHead. I do NOT intend this as an insult to those who think differently than i do. i'm just curious as to the justification for these things. (though i do realize this IS arfcom, this IS the survival forum, and the "why not, get both" attitude is extremely prevalent) just an exercise in free thought... 
honestly, and i'll probably get flamed for this, but what civi really NEEDS armor? come on- maybe you WANT armor- but need it? Not to shit on the original thread. To the OP: you have assessed your situation and are training with your gear- good for you. I'm not going to try and tell anyone what they DO or DON'T need or what MAY or MAY NOT happen in a SHTF scenario... But let's get out of our zombie / jericho wet dream and think about this. IF there is a serious SHTF type scenario in the US, and IF there is fighting in the streets.... Wouldn't you already have bugged your happy rear out? Come on. This is the survival forum. I will be concerned about surviving, and if there is some serious shit, i'll be getting the hell out of dodge before there are mass firefights and rioting in the streets (or at least try to). I'd rather hump around 30lbs of food and water than a big steel plate. It's not like we're sitting at a cafe and life is all dandy one second, then there's a big bang in the sky and folks are running around shooting each other. these things take time. Please spare me the "rather have it and not need it" talk. I agree that i'd be really wanting a plate after there's a gaping hole in my chest. I'd also want an abrams tank if the ruskies up and decide to invade- but is that really likely? i guess my post is rather pointless (like most everything i do), but i'll end it like this: What likely scenario would any normal joe schmoe civi (such as myself) need lvl IV body armor? |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 4:59:10 AM EDT
[#1]
i dont think its about need, i mean in life what do we truly need, air, cloathing, food, and shelter? everything thing eles is pretty much a need. even something as practical as a car is a need since a horse or bicycle can get you from point a to point b.
with armour its kinda the same thing, some people assign it a higher level of importance and chose to spend their money on that. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 5:09:23 AM EDT
[#2]
If the SreallyHTF and you should have already bugged out, then there is no need to an AR, pistol, etc. All you need is a .22 and a deer rifle with some traplines and gardening tools. The truth is, things don't always work out according to our plans. That's why we have contingencies and redundancy (do you need more than 1 rifle?). So you may be caught up in something and wished you'd already bugged out, but couldn't for whatever reason. That's why we prep and plan. I'd love to have body armor, but it's not high up on the priority list. Though I'll probably get it someday, I hope I never need it (like insurance). |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 5:13:32 AM EDT
[#3]
Remember New Orleans? 
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Posted: 10/9/2007 5:15:40 AM EDT
[#4]
To quote someone far more knowledgeable than I on the subject:
I dont have to have any "justification" personally. In order to stay alive, I want food, water, weapons, armor, and ammo. None less important than the other. The same reasons I want food apply to armor.
Any and every possible gunfight I may EVER find myself in. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 5:24:43 AM EDT
[#5]
i teach ccw and small arms along with volunteer my services as a ro for benefit shoots. trust me when i say this. a m1 Abrams tank doesn’t have enough amour on it when i do the benefited shoots to hide behinde.
it might just be you’re area of operations that makes you think that you won’t need it. mine on the other hand makes it a front line piece of gear that is most likely going to be needed at one point just playing the odds. i also live near Cleveland and Euclid not the most educated areas of Ohio and if the balloon goes up which i think will defiantly happen in my life time amour will defiantly be used when this happens and will be worth its weight in gold to me. but once again it comes down to your training level and you area of operations. out in the country probably wont need it, in the city you be insane not to take a serious look at it i teach ccw and small arms along with volunteer my services as a ro for benefit shoots. trust me when i say this. a m1 Abrams tank doesn’t have enough armor on it when i do the benefited shoots to hide behinde. it might just be you’re area of operations that makes you think that you won’t need it. mine on the other hand makes it a front line pike of gear that is most likely going to be needed at one point just playing the odds. this just my 2cents and probly worth 1/2 that |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:24:24 AM EDT
[#6]
yeah, i remember new orleans. i don't recall hearing of vicious gun battles. those folks had more use for a jet-ski than plate carriers. and you respond as if I'm the dumbass.... |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:27:51 AM EDT
[#7]
by the way, i appreciate the honest responses. as i said, just an exercise in free thought. this forum / board has been a wealth of knowledge and i appreciate all opinions.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:31:02 AM EDT
[#8]
"Viscious gun battle"?  It only takes 1 round to end your day.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:56:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Most of us don't need most of the stuff we get. However, we're doing our part to help out the economy by buying products from US companies that help put food on other people's tables.
I've already done my part to help the level IV plate and ballistic vest manufacturers. Next, I need to help the poor, starving manufacturers of .50BMG rifles. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:58:54 AM EDT
[#10]
The average police officer never gets fired on. That means you are more likely to never be fired on that to be fired on once. Therefore no police officers need bullet proof vests. This is your logic.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 7:20:51 AM EDT
[#11]
one You're too young to remember this so here is a link
siting at cafe - yup bang - well maybe just a crash but yup shooting - yup two I guess you just have gear envy and want to bash anyone that says it is ok to have proper equipment. three It really looks that way but I'll bump it with a response in the hope that something good comes out of it |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 7:45:07 AM EDT
[#12]
How 'bout a bug-IN situation where you and your wife might be the first line of defense for an entire rural neighborhood of farmers simply due to your property's location if the S really does HTF? <== Joe Schmo "civillian" with lvl 3A soft and lvl 3+ - 4 hard armor. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:02:14 AM EDT
[#13]
to PA22- not bashing anyone. again- just thinking aloud and wanting to discuss. just because I don't see the purpose in my frame of context doesn't mean I'm saying it's stupid and completely unnecessary. do i think they are cool- hell yeah. would I like one- shit, why not? do i think i NEED one? no.
as per the cafe incident- that's why i carry a pistol. do i feel the need to be proactive about my safety and the safety of those around me? YES. is a plate carrier taking it too far? i think so. as per police officers- they are knowingly and willingly putting themselves in a line of work where it is a likely scenario they may be fired upon. while not very probable, it is within the scope of their duties. that's why they wear body armor. that argument has no weight in the context of my question. why should a CIVILIAN NEED it. anyhow, again, i appreciate the time y'all take to read this and respond with your thoughts. whether or not i agree, i appreciate the responses. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:20:17 AM EDT
[#14]
Then you carry a gun, in case you get in a gunfight. Correct? |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:34:39 AM EDT
[#15]
By your logic you don't NEED any of your guns other than a .22lr
1 gun and 1 vest beats 2 guns and no vest. Pick up a copy of BGB. There are some compelling reasons in there. If you have a vest boots and pants laid out by your bed you can pull these on very fast especially if the boots are slip on. I would rather check out a bump in the night with a vest than without. Maybe I just value my hide more. I've got armor. I've used it twice when investigating a strange noise at night. The most probable situation any of us faces is personal economic SHTF and then criminal attack. Armor can help in a criminal attack. Not every situation is a BAM act in 1 mili second... You might have time to don armor and that is always a good idea. Also if you read any of the reports from Argentina BA is one thing that FerFal guy mentions as being handy a few times. He makes several mentions of it. I also wear my BA when taking training classes and when going to a new range. You never know when a dumb ass is going to sweep you with his muzzle. My vest is concealable and not as nice as A4MH's but I have gotten plenty of use out of it. My wife feels safer when I wear it to the range and sometimes I wear it just for her peace of mind. That alone is worth the cost. Plus you really sound like you have gear envy. NOTHING in America says you have to have a NEED to own something, we call this freedom. When I read his post I was thinking man that is nice armor I wish I could afford it right now. I wasn't thinking what the fuck does he need THAT for  !?!? It reminds me of the passage in U.C. where Ross talks how some people operate on envy. They see someone else doing something they can't afford and it makes them feel like what they are doing isn't fun any more, or that they are less of a person and so they are hostile towards the other because of their own envy. Maybe I am off the mark but that is what it sounds like to me.I for one felt inspired to practice with my gear more after reading A4MH's post. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:37:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Maybe you don't know much about armor but it only protects from certain threats and most rifle ammo will cut right through a soft vest, and though most crimes involving firearms are with hand guns bad guys STILL use rifles on occasion. THAT is the reason. Rifle Fire. Can you promise me the bad guys will only carry hand guns? |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:48:45 AM EDT
[#17]
This whole line of thought from the OP is ridiculous. Why NOT be prepared for sh*t that might happen. remember those folks during katrina, sitting on lawnchairs on their front lawn defending the house? If that was me, given a choice of a .22 and a t-shirt or an ar-15 and level IV, I'd take the latter. could that happen? hell yes.. those folks in LA didnt expect it, didnt think it would ever happen.. and then blam - they're right in the middle of it, and no way out. Preparedness is about being ready for whatever.. sure you get beans and rice and water stocked up first, but if you have a rifle and mags and ammo, and justify any of it for SHTF, then you have already gotten to the point of justifying body armor.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:50:45 AM EDT
[#18]
see YOU all finally get the point of why i say bolt guns CAN be used shtf.... 
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:51:13 AM EDT
[#19]
+1 to that.. need more training and practice.. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 8:53:25 AM EDT
[#20]
did i miss where some one said kifaru or ,molle in the thread ....BRB i gotta re-read it,, cuz i wanna bicth also..... 
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:03:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Most assuredly. But that doesnt make them optimal for most situations.  I have a bicycle, and a truck. 
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:14:16 AM EDT
[#22]
lol
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:19:34 AM EDT
[#23]
ugagrad06,
Interesting question and one worth thinking about. The entire premise you present is that in SHTF you plan to bug out and evade, and therefore armor is unnecessary. My best scenario is almost exactly the opposite. I plan to bug in. I know my neighbors pretty darn well, many (though not all by a long shot) are emergency preparedness minded, a majority of my neighbors have arms, and we already have a working calling tree in place along with an established neighborhood (and city, and regional) command structure. Our superior strength will come from our organized community. So while you're on the run, foraging for food and shelter while hiding and evading, my family will be enjoying the shelter of our home, tending the garden and fruit trees to supplement our several months supply of food storage. The fathers like myself, along with the young men in the neighborhood, will be patrolling the neighborhood and manning guard points to ensure that looters and wanderers like yourself don't come around causing trouble. So do you think I'm going to mind wearing a plate carrier? What possible disadvantage does it present to me? It certainly adds a level of protection from armed vagabonds/scavengers/looters. Could I be placed in the position where I need to evacuate? Sure, but the only likely scenarios would be finding myself downwind of a nuclear strike or downwind of a poison chemical spill up the canyon from where I live. Of the two, the chemical spill is the only really likely one and wouldn't be cause for long term SHTF. Oh, the neighborhood down the hill from us has the same basic structure, and the one on the opposite side of us does as well.... So, as to the original question you post, a plate carrier would be helpful for protecting me from armed wandering scavengers like yourself.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:26:42 AM EDT
[#24]
then you were not watching the news. they were occuringnightly in some areas of the city from the reports i heard. severeal times during the fox news coverage i recall hearing gunshots. there were more than a few people holed up in their homes. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:34:32 AM EDT
[#25]
i love the response. no wandering and scavenging here though... to all that have replied: again, thanks. As suggested, I am young. I am new to the preparedness mindset. My opinions are ever-changing. Why I don't see a need for myself (immediate) to have armor, i now better understand your position and the mindset behind it. That was the point of the post. That's why i come here in the first place- to get some good entertainment, kill time, and learn a thing or two. today i have done all three. thanks again for the replies and the thought on this topic. some were honest, some were tongue-in-cheek, and some were flat out rude. one way or another, i'm leaving this topic with a better understanding of the need for armor in both range / everyday / and shtf type scenarios. as far as the envy thing- perhaps. not because i CAN'T afford it, but i have other things higher on my list. i'm happy for all that can afford these rigs and don't mean to poke fun / talk down to ya. hope ya'll have a good week- i'll check this back periodically to see if anyone else puts in any honest and helpful thoughts. -nic |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:42:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Why the heck would you carry a pistol? The chances of you needing it are slim to none. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 9:50:15 AM EDT
[#27]
In that case I apologize for implying it. I assumed, and apparently incorrectly, that if you're bugging out you will eventually find yourself wandering and scavenging. I'm curious as to how you plan to avoid being a wanderer? After all, if you set up camp in the wilderness, it's going to become crowded very quickly from all the others who come up with the same idea, and the area will probably end up hunted-out within a matter of weeks if not mere days. Got a secluded cabin? That's wonderful, until a band of desperate scavengers comes accross the secluded location. A rural farm to bug out to is also nice, as long as you have the manpower to defend it from groups fleeing the urban areas desperately searching for food. Of course the cabin, wilderness camp, and farm options all mean the probability of having to defend your turf. In which case that plate carrier sounds more and more usefull.... My point is that any location you intend to defend is solid justification for a plate carrier. If you aren't planning on defending the location, I'm curious how you intend to avoid becoming a wanderer and scavenger yourself? |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#28]
i'll greet my visitors with milk and cookies... who doesn't know this? a little kindness goes a long way. it's in the handbook. As i said at the end of my post- i better understand the need for them. I have a lot of things that have a higher priority though. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 10:06:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Great point doc. Chances are you are never going to have to use your CCW. Carrying it is just looking for trouble. No offense, but your line of thinking is that of a liberal. If I'm patrolling property during SHTF, I'm not going to go out without level IV armor. Why? Chances are no one is going to shoot me...but history tells us that it's very easy for cities to turn into warzones. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 10:12:43 AM EDT
[#30]
I got an idea:
How about you carry and bring whatever you think you need..............and I'll carry and bring whatever I think I need??? That works right?? Cool. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 10:32:40 AM EDT
[#31]
I stand by my original statement. I need armor. Perhaps your situation doesn't require you to protect yourself from gunshot wounds, mine does. Perhaps you never heard the adage; Get in a fistfight, expect to get hit. Get in a knife fight, expect to get cut. Get in a gunfight, expect to get shot. If you choose to carry a firearm, you should also carry the tools to save lives (BOK), including your own (body armor). Bear in mind, police are civilians too, and (surprisingly) some departments still don't require or provide armor to their officers. Even though the police have the greater likelihood of interacting with a Bad Guy on any given day rather than your average ARFCOMMER, some don't wear armor. Eventually they'll come under fire, and wish they had body armor... Edited for typo. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 11:10:07 AM EDT
[#32]
If you are going to bug out, you need armor...Haven't you seen the threads in which people say if someone even gets close to their land they will shoot first. If you are bugging out others are bugging in.
Some shit does happen over night, Bet you didn't know 9/11 was gonna happen now did ya? A civillian needs body armor because a government can not always be trusted. Think of owning body armor for why you own guns. Sure as hell suck to die fighting a future tyrannical government cause you were too stupid to see a need to own body armor. Also my personal favorite reason to own anything is, I NEED it because I want it. I still NEED more armor only have a helmet right now, I should get a smaller one cause I keep wanting to take it out and shoot it. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 1:29:16 PM EDT
[#33]
you didnt get the memo did you....... sorry but there's an actual what you need or else youll die shtf list in the faq!
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Posted: 10/9/2007 1:30:32 PM EDT
[#34]
I see noone else has really brought this up. In addition to the other reasons listed, if you should have to use your firearms for the purpose the Second Amendment is in the Constitution, you will probably need armor to stay alive for more than 2 magazines worth of shooting.
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Posted: 10/9/2007 2:05:39 PM EDT
[#35]
I have armor. I dont wear it everyday but if I need it then it is right there.
I keep a vest under the bed next to the AR. If someone is in the house while I am there it will be a bad time for them. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 3:00:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Why do you have guns?
To shoot people. What generally happens when you are shooting at people? They shoot back. That is what it boils down to. We can play "who starts shooting first" and "when and where" it happens, but we can use those arguments against having guns as well. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 5:44:13 PM EDT
[#37]
If you have ever felt the need, to buy a gun for self defense, then the very same reason justifies armor. You may be put off by the cost, weight, or difficulty to conceal, but the need is the same.
So ask yourself; What really puts you off on body armor? |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:08:51 PM EDT
[#38]
I have a buddy in the NG that went to New Orleans. He saw several gun fights but was not invovled in them. As far as why do I need it? I don't but if I could afford it I would. I don't need a spare on my Jeep either but I like having it. |
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Posted: 10/9/2007 6:13:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Food for thought, eh? I get it.
My .02 is this- if I get wounded or killed my Wife will be on her own. That's not acceptable. |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 1:56:32 AM EDT
[#40]
If you can put rounds on them, they can put rounds on you... 
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Posted: 10/10/2007 2:04:47 AM EDT
[#41]
sshhhhhhh you'll ruin the shtf wet dream,,, damn you!
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Posted: 10/10/2007 3:11:50 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm not a detracto of armor, but I'm not it's biggest fan, either.
Like all our gear, it's situation dependent. I wore an Interceptor in Iraq and learned to hate it a lot of the time. It was hot, heavy, and limited my maneuverability. But there were also times when I loved that damned thing and did my damnedest to get all of me inside that vest. In most survival situations I don't see me grabbing armor. If I gotta move quick, it's the last hindrance I'd want. But in a scenario where the MZBs have my house surrounded? I'll take all the armor I can get my hands on! |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 3:41:59 AM EDT
[#43]
My family is building a Laundry Mat in Prichard AL, (Mobile). It has a very high murder rate. I promise that I will be wearing a vest when I make trips there to collect the money. Is this not a perfect reason for a Civi to NEED one?
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Posted: 10/10/2007 4:14:13 AM EDT
[#44]
The two-way range doesn't respect theory, only skill-at-arms.
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Posted: 10/10/2007 4:31:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Ok, I will play.
Why do "I," a lowly civilian now need armor. Reference the courthouse shooting in TX where a CCL holder confronted a rifleman on courthouse steps. He ran from his housing across the street to confront the rifleman. He did not have rifle plates. I would argue that plate/vest combo could have saved his life and allowed him to end the conflict there. Reference any school shooting. I keep a plate/carrier combo in my trunk. Not for the zombies, but to prolong my ability to protect my students. Its a realistic investment. Will I ever need it, I dont know. But I have it becuase I dont have a crystal ball like some do. |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 5:07:56 AM EDT
[#46]
Everyone else has touched on the many "justifications" for owning body armor, I'll touch on the end results of not having it. If you get shot in the torso area in SHTF with even a lowly .22LR, or the BG's favorite .25ACP, you could easily DIE. You might not die for a day, a week, or even suffer through a year, but you can very easily die. Think of SHTF/TEOTWAWKI as going back in time about 150 years ago, if you don't have a doc nearby, you will die from a gut shot, a lung shot, etc. With modern medecine, even AK rounds in vital area's can be survived, but without that modern medicine you don't stand a chance. Armor is designed to protect those critical areas, and in SHTF/TEOTWAWKI that's the difference between having a bad day, and a life ending day. Again unless you have a fully stocked and powered trauma center in your basement with the appropriate personnel, get some armor. It's much easier to treat a bruise than a gunshot.
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Posted: 10/10/2007 5:57:03 AM EDT
[#47]
Before man invented fire..he invented weapons.
once man became civilized before he went to battle he doned armor....learn from the past. The only people to do battle without armor were the peasants/ cannon fodder. I am not a surf/ peasant/ minion to the lord......as small as it is I am the king of my castle and no self respecting king would ever go do battle without the finest armor the peasants could buy him. I do not have hard or soft armor I'm just trying to keep the electricty bill paid right now but it is on the list of must have's just like gen 3 NVG. |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 10:33:28 AM EDT
[#48]
Reminds me of a story one of my firearm trainers told me. He was/is long time LEO and him and a partner were chaising a dick head. Guy had a POS Raven Arms .25 and shot back over his shoulder. Didn't even look or aim, well one of the rounds hit and killed is partner who was not wearing a vest. |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 3:25:49 PM EDT
[#49]
I built my set-up just in case I have to go and "retrieve" my family and loved ones. If SHTF I refuse to leave my family hanging out in the wind. I may die trying but I will do everything in my power to be the meanest SOB in the valley when it comes to getting my family out.
Think just how many times you can't bug out or in because you have to go and get your family first. Right now, right this very second when you read this message. How many of you have family that is not at home and might need them retrieved to make them safe? |
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Posted: 10/10/2007 6:15:16 PM EDT
[#50]
To respond to the original post, Google survival in Argentina after its economic collapse in 2000. There is a guy that goes by the screen name of FerFAL that put together a number of posts on this board and others that describes what he went through and what he did to survive.
I remember that some of his most valued survival tools were a concealable pistol and body armor. Evidently, when they are starving, the most everyday ordinary people will do horrible things just for a few dollars. You have to be prepared for anything at any time, and you have to appear to be just another person trying to live a normal life for the cops. I also have to agree with the other posters about the two way range scenario. If things are so bad I need to carry a rifle around, I could be facing rifle fire as well, and want to have a chance to survive it. That said, I have racked up no significant time toting either a rifle or a plate carrier, so I really can't comment on their practicality. |
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