So lets say the "SHTF" has happened and gone on for enough years that your stock of ammo and reloading supplies are depleted. You've got brass and lead so you can make your own projectiles but what do you use for powder?


Black powder is fairly easy to manufacture without advanced tech or chemicals. How would you go about loading a round with BP?

For the sake of this lets assume you've still got primers.

BP generates much lower pressures.

For a modern case, you can pretty much fill it and shoot.

At least, that is what I read somewhere on the internet. once so don't quote me on the above.

.30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing.

Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc.

What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry?

In a real SHTF the primers are the first to go.

Yes BP would work at a low pressure.

If your really into it look into nitrates and modern powder manufacture.  What it boils down to is nitric acid.  You can make sulfuric acid into nitric acid by adding ammonium nitrate and condensing the fumes.

TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook shows you most of it.  It even shows you how to recycle old primers.

I got a Kentucky BP rifle with flintlock in it and a percussion cap kit just in case.  I can improvise powder and ball if it comes to that.

30-30 & 30-40 Krag  started out as smokeless powder ammo.

I've been shooting (and loading) ammo in original BP calibers for a few years now.  You might be surprised how many SASS shooters frequent ARFCOM.


There's a bit more to it than just filling the case to capacity with BP then cramming a projectile down on top.  You might want to start by getting a good BP manual.

As far as making BP yourself,  you might also find that it's not quite as simple as it first seems. Ever tried corning?

Plus, you then have to find or produce your own charcoal, saltpeter and sulpher.  Casting your own bullets isn't rocket science.  But you need the molds now while they are available.  And what will be your source of lead?

Anyhow, All of those old style revolvers and rifles should prove indispensible in the event that smokeless ammo (and their components) become totally unavailable.

I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again.

Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again.

Been there, done that.

I have read a few black powder recipes that don't require sulfure.  I've never made bp but if the recipes work, that's greatly simplify things, as one can make charcoal and leach potassium nitrate from nitrate bearing soil.  I'm not sure where you'd get sulfur from unless you have deposits of it nearby.

But why work with BP when one can have smokeless powder.  Check out Wikipedia's page on smokless powder: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

A person with some chemistry knolwedge could figure out how to make the precursor chemicals and make smokeless powder liek Cordite, Ballisite, or what have you.

As for primers, a little research into primers shows fulminated mercury was what the percussion caps of the Civil War was made out of.  It made brass cartridges brittle, so it was replaced by potassium chlorate, which makes a salt when fired, so they are corrosive.  

Lead Staphyate (spelling?) replaced potassium chlorate as it wasn't corrosive, but my research shows me that the precursor chems to make it are more involved than potassium chlorate is.

Other non-lead, non corrosive primer mixtures would turn up in a search of the US Patent office, which Google has online.

Once you have the chemical for primers, it'd seem simple to make a press to churn out the cups and anvils and whatnot out of sheet metal to make primers.

As for casings, P.A. Luty, the English guy who served 4 years for making a submaching gun to show how stupid that country's gun ban was, has turned out a few books on homemade ammo.  In one, he used plastic tubing to make shotgun shells, and in another, he used thin metal tubing, and soldered on little metal rings to make .38 special cartridges.  He primed then with blank cartridges so that might not be a workable option as where the f are you getting blanks in a SHTF/gun ban situation?

I've wondered if one could turn down and bore out plastic rods for ammo, or if one could melt plastic and use an injection molding machine, like the one that Dave or Vince Gingery made to make ammo, at least for shotguns, revolvers, bolt actions and single shots, since the reviews on the AR15 ammuniton board of NATEC's plastic cased ammo seemed to be very very negative, with lots of reports of bullets being pushed back into the casing on feeding, or being wiggled out by finger pressure, or by the forces of recoil, since it doesn't seem that one could crimp a plastic casing to keep the bullet in it without using some type of glue.

As far as bullets, what about plates from dead car batteries that can't be used for power storage anymore?  Would electroplating them with copper serve as a way to jacket them?

Somewhere around here is Fat-McNasty's thread on making .22 bullets using rimfire shells.

I have seen people experiment with using copper tubing and lead wire to make .30 projectiles..

Lead won't be too hard to come by, a walk through a parking lot would bring about a good amount of pretty hard lead for casting.  Most handguns function fine with lead bullets....

Someone has a BP rifle with an electronic ignition.  (off to find a link)

http://www.cva.com/products/rifle_electra.htm

That should eliminate one component (caps/primers).

Black powder is not simple to manufacture.  

There are a lot of publications (I use the term loosely) that describe processes for making substitute propellants.  Black powder is often included.  It seems deceptively simple to mix some charcoal, sulfur and pottassium nitrate and make BP.

THe difficult part is doing so and not blowing yourself up.  As a very stupid youth I used to screw around with this stuff.  We set a garage afire, and only the grace of God ensured we are still here.  The production of BP may be simple but it is also extremely dangerous.

This IS a survival forum right?  What long-term survival advantage do we acrue by making BP if we blow off hands and feet when we make the stuff?

You can simple 'stir' ingredients.  Doing so will result in some pretty disappointing powder.  The corning process (wetting the mixture, forcing through screens, and drying) sounds simple.  How do you do this in a safe reliabel manner?  You don't....  Disasters occuring during BP manufacture were fairly common....  corning will kill ya...

The answer is NO.  I do not screw around with making BP.  I am a LONG time reloader and odds are, if you see a mushroom cloud to the north east, its likely my house caught fire.  I do a lot of non-conventionial but carefully considered reloading, and stockpile larger quantities of powder and primers, not to mention ammo.  Despite considerable skills and equipment I will NOT frog around with making powders.

If you are worried about end of the world as we know it (I'm not) I suggest you forget making BP and instead focus on stockpiling another two hundred rounds of ammo.

Frozenny

Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again.

I'm not sneaky enough, but if it comes down to that I have my setup :)

I remember an article on the Augusta Powder Works in Augusta GA.  It was the only building(s) that were designed, contracted, built and run by the CSA.  Anyway, the little assemble areas were smaller buildings three sides brick and one side wood, to direct the blast away from other areas in the event of an accident.  They made the finest powder in the world at the time.  Interesting reading to say the least.


ETA
confederatesaddles.com/augusta.html

Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry?

The "30-30" Was Not originally BP.  It was the first common smokeless load 30WCF.  The common shooter called it a 30-30 because it used 30 grains of smokeless powder and that is what shooters of that era were used to calling loads.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again. Been there, done that.

hey man, I hear ya,

my uncle was a bow maker, he made me and my bro's bow and arrows when we were kids, shot a hell of a lot of rabbits, few deer and squirels with mine,

when I got a bit older I killed my first turkey with one, I'd have to lose some weight, but I think in a shtf type situation, that won't be a problem and I should pick the sneaky skills up right quick again.

Topics such as this makes me realize my limitations, and want to increase my stock of factory loaded ammunition I already have on hand!

I am also looking into a crossbow.

The idea of blowing myself up trying to manufacture black powder is not on my "to do list".

I think that the powder would be the easy part in comparisson to producing your own brass.  As far as I'm concerned, buy lots of .22 rimfire.  It's alot easier, and being a rimfire, you could easily make a gun for it if it came to that.  

Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry?

I have a recurve bow and a flint lock(no percussion cap needed.)

I need to learn how to make the flemish bow strings I have been buying(I have read that is easy) and need to know how to make black powder(not a clue as to how).

If things were so bad ammo was drying up everywhere I'd completely cease using what I had left and switch to the above for day to day.

Lead for balls would be the hardest thing to come by. I suppose I need a .50 caliber ball mold as well.

Quoted: Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry? The "30-30" Was Not originally BP.  It was the first common smokeless load 30WCF.  The common shooter called it a 30-30 because it used 30 grains of smokeless powder and that is what shooters of that era were used to calling loads.

It WAS black powder when it was originally introduced, but quickly became popular as a smokeless round.

.30-40 Krag was a BP round, which was a major complaint when we went up against Mauser rifles firing smokeless powder in the Spanish-American War.

Quoted: Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry? Strike anywhere match heads for one.

Yeah, those are just EVERYWHERE these days.

Quoted: The "30-30" Was Not originally BP.  It was the first common smokeless load 30WCF.  The common shooter called it a 30-30 because it used 30 grains of smokeless powder and that is what shooters of that era were used to calling loads.

It WAS black powder when it was originally introduced, but quickly became popular as a smokeless round.

.30-40 Krag was a BP round, which was a major complaint when we went up against Mauser rifles firing smokeless powder in the Spanish-American War.

Sorry Swindle, you're incorrect here.  The .30-30 WCF was one of the first two smokeless powder sporting rounds in the US, the other being the .25-35 WCF.  They were introduced in 1895 in the Winchester 1894.  When the 1894 came out, it was first chambered in .32-40 and .38-55, which WERE BP rounds.  The nickel-steel barrels needed for the .25-35 and .30-30 were not ready until 1895.  The original Winchester designations for these rounds were .25 WCF and .30 WCF.  The older BP nomenclature got grafted onto the new smokeless rounds.

Likewise, the .30 US Army, AKA .30-40 Krag was specifically designed to use smokeless.  It was the first US service cartridge so designed.  Most American troops during the Spanish-American War were armed with Trapdoor Springfields firing .45-70-500 rounds, which WERE loaded with BP.  As with the Winchester rounds, the older BP nomneclature got applied to the smokeless .30-40.

Quoted: Quoted: The "30-30" Was Not originally BP.  It was the first common smokeless load 30WCF.  The common shooter called it a 30-30 because it used 30 grains of smokeless powder and that is what shooters of that era were used to calling loads. It WAS black powder when it was originally introduced, but quickly became popular as a smokeless round. .30-40 Krag was a BP round, which was a major complaint when we went up against Mauser rifles firing smokeless powder in the Spanish-American War. Sorry Swindle, you're incorrect here.  The .30-30 WCF was one of the first two smokeless powder sporting rounds in the US, the other being the .25-35 WCF.  They were introduced in 1895 in the Winchester 1894.  When the 1894 came out, it was first chambered in .32-40 and .38-55, which WERE BP rounds.  The nickel-steel barrels needed for the .25-35 and .30-30 were not ready until 1895.  The original Winchester designations for these rounds were .25 WCF and .30 WCF.  The older BP nomenclature got grafted onto the new smokeless rounds. Likewise, the .30 US Army, AKA .30-40 Krag was specifically designed to use smokeless.  It was the first US service cartridge so designed.  Most American troops during the Spanish-American War were armed with Trapdoor Springfields firing .45-70-500 rounds, which WERE loaded with BP.  As with the Winchester rounds, the older BP nomneclature got applied to the smokeless .30-40.

So first you tell me exactly what I said, then you tell me that I'm wrong, then you go on to say the same thing I said again.

Doh!  I erroneously quoted some stuff from another post.  This is what I meant to say:

Sorry Swindle, you're incorrect here. The .30-30 WCF was one of the first two smokeless powder sporting rounds in the US, the other being the .25-35 WCF. They were introduced in 1895 in the Winchester 1894. When the 1894 came out, it was first chambered in .32-40 and .38-55, which WERE BP rounds. The nickel-steel barrels needed for the .25-35 and .30-30 were not ready until 1895. The original Winchester designations for these rounds were .25 WCF and .30 WCF. The older BP nomenclature got grafted onto the new smokeless rounds. Likewise, the .30 US Army, AKA .30-40 Krag was specifically designed to use smokeless. It was the first US service cartridge so designed. Most American troops during the Spanish-American War were armed with Trapdoor Springfields firing .45-70-500 rounds, which WERE loaded with BP. As with the Winchester rounds, the older BP nomneclature got applied to the smokeless .30-40.

I figure I will keep expanding my library of useful books. Keep getting better tools and learning what they can do. A lot of things that could be extremely useful in a long term nightmare scenario look a tad dangerous in are current relatively safe time. If times were bad, it could be detrimental to ones survival not to have those skills. So I figure put the ground work in place now. One could learn the safe parts of the skills now and learn the dangerous parts when it dangerous not to know it. Learn the basics like chemistry. Also some dangerous things can be relatively safe if done in very small scales. Making a lot of gunpowder dangerous. Making thimble full, not much.

Ya know, with all the reinactors in this country (which I can safely bet outnumber by ten fold any other country), in an EOTWAWKI event that wipes out global industry, we'd be a black powder super-power, fielding easily 20 to 30,000 men with muskets, cannon, etc. etc. if not more.

Just counting arfcommers, there's probably enough firepower here to take over a small country. When that all dries, up there's probably enough bows & arrows, crossbows, and swords among us to do battle with a Legion.

And when steel dries up, there's always the "buck and a quarter quarter staff"

Quoted: Ya know, with all the reinactors in this country (which I can safely bet outnumber by ten fold any other country), in an EOTWAWKI event that wipes out global industry, we'd be a black powder super-power, fielding easily 20 to 30,000 men with muskets, cannon, etc. etc. if not more. Just counting arfcommers, there's probably enough firepower here to take over a small country. When that all dries, up there's probably enough bows & arrows, crossbows, and swords among us to do battle with a Legion. And when steel dries up, there's always the "buck and a quarter quarter staff"

hey man, you left out slingshots, marbles and rocks.

To keep from having to fool with that dangerous shit, stock up on .22lr now while it is still cheap and available. I have a few blackpowder guns, and a couple of books on making alternatives to both smokeless and black powder, but if it comes down to that, I have ran through all the storebought ammo I have and reloading components I have, I probably fucked up somewhere. I have about 3500 rnds of .22lr on hand and plan to add to that, while .223 and 7.62X39 is going through the roof .22 is still about ten dollars per 550 at walmart.

I would pay to see somebody take once-fired brass, strike-anywhere matches, black powder, a lead wheel weight, a bullet mold, etc. and make ammo for their gun and post the results.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry? Strike anywhere match heads for one. That wouldn't work, would it?

It's in the improvised weapons manual that army published.

Quoted: I would pay to see somebody take once-fired brass, strike-anywhere matches, black powder, a lead wheel weight, a bullet mold, etc. and make ammo for their gun and post the results.

Is this close enough?
(From the Jan-Feb '83 issue of "Survive" magazine)

img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_45_0001.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_44_0001.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_68_0001.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_69_0001.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_70_0001.jpg

Sorry they are small. You'll have to save them to your computer then zoom in with a picture viewer to read the article.

Stay Safe,
AGreyMan

Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again.

I think I'd rather be shot with a gun than a bow with some of the broadheads out there.  Long time ago someone got shot by a hunter with a bow after they used a light brown garbage bag as a rain suit.  (Yes they were hunting too).  Aside from the guy being dumb for even carrying a brown bag he was dead before the guy was able to get down his treestand and try and help him.  The victim screamed when he was shot so that is how the shooter knew he shot someone.  It happened in LBL in KY years ago I think.  

Quoted: Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again. I think I'd rather be shot with a gun than a bow with some of the broadheads out there.  Long time ago someone got shot by a hunter with a bow after they used a light brown garbage bag as a rain suit.  (Yes they were hunting too).  Aside from the guy being dumb for even carrying a brown bag he was dead before the guy was able to get down his treestand and try and help him.  The victim screamed when he was shot so that is how the shooter knew he shot someone.  It happened in LBL in KY years ago I think.

man, thats no shit, plus I imagine it'd be much more lengthy and painfull death,

I lung shot a deer and the arrow didn't pass completly through, the 1 1/4" broad head cut the hell all out of the insides of that deer when he ran off, he still made it approx 1/4 mile through the brush though,

only deer I ever shot with a rifle that looked worse inside without the bullet hitting bone was one I'd shot up the ass at 50 yards with a 300wm loaded with a 180 gr nosler balistic tip screaming along at around 2900+fps on impact.

Quoted: Quoted: I would pay to see somebody take once-fired brass, strike-anywhere matches, black powder, a lead wheel weight, a bullet mold, etc. and make ammo for their gun and post the results. Is this close enough? (From the Jan-Feb '83 issue of "Survive" magazine) img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_45_0001.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_44_0001.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_68_0001.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_69_0001.jpg img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/AGreyMan/Jan-Feb83_70_0001.jpg Sorry they are small. You'll have to save them to your computer then zoom in with a picture viewer to read the article. Stay Safe, AGreyMan

Got any more scans from that magazine?

Quoted: I would pay to see somebody take once-fired brass, strike-anywhere matches, black powder, a lead wheel weight, a bullet mold, etc. and make ammo for their gun and post the results.

Give me an amount that will make it worth my time.......41 Rem Mag would be my choice.

Quoted: I'm thinking bow and arrows time, and becoming a sneaky indian again.

I would much rather just buy 100k .22, that should last a while...

This thread made me go out and pickup another 1500 rds of .22lr, I figure I'll pick up another 1500-2000 next week too.  If I can shoot 10K+ .22lr in a SHTF situation, and survive, then I'll yank the bow out of closet and get to work.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: .30-30, .30-40 Krag, .45-70, .303, .45 Long Colt, and a crapload of other calibers started out using black powder rather than smokeless powder. Other calibers could be used with black powder too, but they won't have nearly the performance. Still, it's better than nothing. Lead doesn't do you much good without a proper bullet mold; you gotta have it exactly the right shape, right dimensions, etc. What are you going to use for primers after those and percussion caps run dry? The "30-30" Was Not originally BP.  It was the first common smokeless load 30WCF.  The common shooter called it a 30-30 because it used 30 grains of smokeless powder and that is what shooters of that era were used to calling loads. It WAS black powder when it was originally introduced, but quickly became popular as a smokeless round. .30-40 Krag was a BP round, which was a major complaint when we went up against Mauser rifles firing smokeless powder in the Spanish-American War.

The winchester 94 was introduced in 32special and 30wcf
the 32 special was designed as a bigger calibre for the winchester 94 it also was able to be reloaded with black powder or in the event smokeless was not availible similar in balistics to the 32-40 which it replaced 32-40 was a favorite cartridge of many deer hunters prior to the smokless revolution

Hey it has to be true i read it on the internet

Rel. to original topic: I have owned 32spl. and 32-40 rifles with 16" twist barrels, allegedly this was to enhance results with home-made & softer (high lead content) cast bullets. Early jacketed bullets had a mixed reception with old-time hunters, especially where larger animals were involved.

Interesting response this thread has gotten me. I need to read up on black powder some more but the gist I got is that it's possible.

There is a story in the Backwoodsman magazine right now about making blackpowder. If you want ot go this route just wait until after deer seasonand go to wal mart. 1 pound of powder cheaper than 550 rnds of 22lr. I paid 7 or 8 dollars last year. When it gets this far along with this crowd, you shoudn't need more than 1 or 2 pounds to feed the family all year. I have a CVA 50 cal muzzleloader that I paid $50 new at Wal mart several years ago. Last year it was the same price. Good luck finding it this year as most black powder gun makers are going inline and dropping everything else.
On the other hand, I have a 30 30, just got a bucket of wheel weights, and plenty of empty brass. Everything else is in the mail and on the way to me.
I also like the fact I can use the same mold for all .30 cal guns.

Quoted: Black powder is not simple to manufacture.   There are a lot of publications (I use the term loosely) that describe processes for making substitute propellants.  Black powder is often included.  It seems deceptively simple to mix some charcoal, sulfur and pottassium nitrate and make BP. THe difficult part is doing so and not blowing yourself up.  As a very stupid youth I used to screw around with this stuff.  We set a garage afire, and only the grace of God ensured we are still here.  The production of BP may be simple but it is also extremely dangerous. This IS a survival forum right?  What long-term survival advantage do we acrue by making BP if we blow off hands and feet when we make the stuff? You can simple 'stir' ingredients.  Doing so will result in some pretty disappointing powder.  The corning process (wetting the mixture, forcing through screens, and drying) sounds simple.  How do you do this in a safe reliabel manner?  You don't....  Disasters occuring during BP manufacture were fairly common....  corning will kill ya... The answer is NO.  I do not screw around with making BP.  I am a LONG time reloader and odds are, if you see a mushroom cloud to the north east, its likely my house caught fire.  I do a lot of non-conventionial but carefully considered reloading, and stockpile larger quantities of powder and primers, not to mention ammo.  Despite considerable skills and equipment I will NOT frog around with making powders. If you are worried about end of the world as we know it (I'm not) I suggest you forget making BP and instead focus on stockpiling another two hundred rounds of ammo. Frozenny

+1000 I'm with Frozenny  Phil Sharps book on reloading goes into to detail about smokless powders. They are dangerous to make also.

Let someone else do it for you.