User Panel
Posted: 5/21/2007 12:25:23 AM EDT
One thing that has occured to me is that if something bad happens that is bad enough to knock out comm in my city I better have me and a few of my select friends and family equipped w/ GMRS radios and a code sheet. Anyway, I am on the market for one but I know little about all this.
I want one that is decent quality reciever & has a few of the common bells and whistles, but most of all I want somehting that has an external aentenna jack. Maybe one of the new "25 mile" range radios. In addition to this I gues I might should get some weather ballons and baloon anetnnas for the kits. Can some of you radio types help me out? |
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BTW, what about those new FMUS (or whatever radio's)? Is that worth a damn or should a guy just stick w/ GMRS?
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Tag for info.
Maybe this is what I need. I've been looking for a good radio/GPS, but as suggested already, I may want to go with seperate units. |
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Probably seperate units is better for many reasons. How'bout that combo devices usually do each thing less well, they are more costly to maintain/repair.
Basically I am looking for a GMRS or FMUS radio that has weather aleats and takes and external antenna and has as much range as possible. |
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grms= 25 mile = 1.5 miles
plan on any you buy being lineof sight. The best one sive had so far are a set my wife got me for x-mas. They are listed as 16 mile. but really on do 1.5 in dense woods. Fine by me really. teh rest have hardley made 1/4 mile in thick woods. every now and then you may get a good signal and run 1-3 miles but thats it. |
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that's why I want the external antenna jack. One can always float an anetnna up.
Is there a better radio technology for people on different sides of town keeping in contact w/ eachother? |
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The obvious answer is amateur radio, but you can read 1000 posts about how that is accomplished. MURS or Multi-Use Radio Service is similar to the Family Radio Service, except you can use 4 times the power, and external antennas are allowed. MURS included 5 frequencies in the 151.000 MHz band (VHF-Hi), and 2 watts power.
VHF is better for rural areas, woods, farms etc. UHF (FRS) is better in denser areas, buildings, malls, city. Remember that when you choose a system, be prepared to stick to it. MURS radios do not talk to FRS or GMRS radios. My personal choice has been to secure a GMRS license and pursue used UHF commercial equipment. All of those bubble pack radios at WalMart are nice (you can forget about 16 miles), but when its time for real communications, you just cannot beat a good old Motorola MT1000. The output is 5 watts, the batteries last for 2 days, and I have driven over mine and left it out in the rain over night, and had it work just fine. On the other hand, to have some back-up interoperability, a few bubble pack radios work great, especially as they operate on AA batteries usually. This is a great advantage if you are not good at maintaining charged batteries. I keep about 6 of those handy for family trips or even shopping. Its easier than cell phones too. |
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If someone only had a potential need for a couple of the cheaper, "16-18 mile" two way radios sets, which one would be recommended?
Also, are the ones bought in a set only good for talking to each other, or could help be summoned from close by? I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this stuff, or the acronyms, or the licensing, but would like *something* along these lines. Is there a "cheap-ass two way radio set" primer/FAQ somewhere? |
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Look into handheld 2M ham radios. The Tech license is easy and doesn't cost but $10.00 for 10 years. Go to www.arrl.org and find out when a test is being given in your area. Most handheld 2M radios will give you anywhere from 5 to 70 miles of range, depending on the repeaters in your area.
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You have a toughy on your hands.
GMRS is basically short range radios suited as a squad radio only. In that regard, they work exceptionally well, however the range is limited to line of sight. Their strength is they are very low cost, extremely simple to use, and minimal restrictions/licenses. Technically the GMRS channels (most radios also have FRS channels which require no license) require a $75 license which is only a fee, however due to the sheer numbers enforcement of this is nil. The license is a family license. Ham radios on the otherhand come much closer to doing the job you want but are expensive, require more technical knowledge to operate, and a license that you have take a test. These licenses are enforced. Though not problem for a few people when you start talking a number of people, the cost, learning curve, and time/effort to get the license a hurdle. The license is an individual license. Another option is the CB (Citizen Band) radio which really isn't a clear signal but you can have base stations and external antennas. Boosting these can really put out some distance, however that is illegal and is also enforced. Their range isn't for the most part much better than GMRS but they are relatively inexpensive. Still at legal power limits and good antenna they can out reach a handheld GMRS and you can increase that range by using a code key who's high frequency sound carries farther and penetrates cross talk. This requires no license. Another radio type available to the public seldom mentioned on this forum is the Marine Band radio. A base unit with whip antenna can reach ranges to 25 miles, however the handhelds are limited in range to about 5-10 miles. Though not licensed any more, there is a protocol and the hailing channel/emerency channel monitored as well as certain other channels reserved for commerical use etc. I would suggest you begin you quest by studying radios with emphasis on their strengths and weaknesses, then redefine your goal around what you can obtain or reasonably impliment. Tj |
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I don't know about "cheap-ass", but popularwireless.com is a good place to learn just about everything there is about FRS and GMRS radios. They have a FAQ here... www.popularwireless.com/gmrsfaqa.html |
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So if a attenna was stuck on a cheap gmrs radio and that attenna was raised above the trees, could it actually get that 15 mile range? |
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That's an excellent read Monkeyman! |
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I have these Motorola GMRS radios. They have 2 watts of power and I have used them as far as 5 miles from hilltop to hilltop. On flat land in an urban environment I can get 2-3 miles.
Motorola You probably want something with a full 5 Watts. |
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THE 25 miles is over more like 12.5 miles in real life not 1.5 my 14 mile one will do 7 miles with trees and power lines. |
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This pretty much sums up my decision. Since I'm the kind that likes to be legal, I can't see justifying the outrageous license fee for GMRS. I'm going the MURS route myself. You can do well with the GMRS range if you can find a repeater in your area but they're few and far between. I think we actually have one in town, though. |
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Yeah, when I did my first post it was kind of hard to decide whether to mention MURS, but I'll take a very general stab at it. Spurred primarily by the wireless home intercom market (baby monitors and such) the government offered a new narrow band license free citizen band. Up until then the intercoms were held to 1/4 watt. In 2000, that 1/4 watt was opened up to 2 watts these frequencies, 151.820 MHz * 151.880 MHz * 151.940 MHz * 154.570 MHz * 154.600 MHz with no license and better yet the antenna restriction was dropped. (special note here to those into scanners how close those channels are to what emergency services use) This spurred a new citizen radio market and as time has passed more selections in two way radios. MURS is probably most often compared to GMRS since stand alone handheld units are very similar in performance, however that is not a complete picture by a long shot for either type of radio. Most of the GMRS radios you buy at Radio Shack/Walmart/Gander Mountain etc. are designed to not be nuisance to commercial GMRS via repeater use by their short antennas. Though licenses are mentioned in small print, nobody really expects the soccer mom/hunter to buy one. With the license you can actually get a GMRS base station and then mount external antennas legally expanding the range. Though in my first right up I mentioned GMRS license are not enforced, they are with expanded range. This bascially gets you enough range to hit the repeaters. (I'm being way over simplistic here but I hope you get the point.) Now you have MURS which is 2 Watts usually 5 channels up to 8 (last three often programmed to receive weather) and you can attach antennas to yoru hand helds. These antennas many of them like the Firestick aren't that large or bulky but bascially when added make the little handhelds perform like it has 7.8 watts instead of 2 watts. Since the service is relatively new, another advantage is not alot of existing traffic like a FRS/GMRS say at an amusement park, playground, or flea market. MURS has no license thus no restrictions. Though up until recently radio availability has been pretty scarce and expensive, this isn't the case now as more companies enter into the market. I was recently looking at a 5 channel Kenwood for $49 a radio and the short 3' firesticks are around $25. Alrighty then, why MURS over GMRS or vice versa if they are so similar? I'll take my best shot at it. GMRS tends to do better going through buildings while MURS tends to do better going over hills. Ranges of base handhelds are very similar. Now that being said, depending on what radio you buy of each type then they can be modified, antennas being the number one thing, however some base or mobile GMRS radios can be 10-50 watts (better have you license for these babies). A better GMRS can use repeaters and depending on availability in your area greatly increase your range with the typical number thrown out there 20 miles. Now the MURS modifying the antenna the usual number is 10 miles with of course that antenna outside not inside a structure. Base station MURS which can employ even longer antennas can reach station to station about 20 miles and not repeater dependent. How does this all apply to survival and not just a radio hobby? The obvious uses for a short range walkie talkie is keeping in contact short distances. In this the FRS, GMRS, and MURS all do well. I kind of think of it as still within my neighborhood kind of thing or in combat terms close enough you may get there by foot in time to help someone. At moderate distances (think of it as down the road a little or I could get to someone by car in time to help someone) then the GMRS and MURS are definately the better radios with the GMRS a tad better in town and the MURS better in the boonies. The GMRS and MURS are better mobile options than say CB which has to deal with atmospherics and of course channel crowding. There seems to always be some illegal broadcaster on CB with his 100 watt linier amplifier blowing everyone away basically jamming which is illegal as hell, but they do it. Mobile to Mobile (car to car) is good for convoying or meeting up in a crisis when cell phone channels will all be jammed with "You OK calls." Some people may see the MURS need for an external antenna as a weakness compared to the GMRS in mobile applications but those of us that were old CB people shouldn't for that external antenna at the same given wattage gives the MURS a distinct edge over the GMRS in range. Magnetic Firesticks are as easy to hook up to a MURS as the old CB magnetic antennas. For most of us in most applications, GMRS standard units work fine for field use and convoy. Though CB actually bends over hills better than both GMRS and MURS, the signal quality is very poor and channels crowded in comparrison. Without upgrading the GMRS with a license and expensive equipment that would get you into the HAM cost range so why not HAM, I give the MURS the edge in linking up by Mobile. Linking up is usually a predermined meeting point then reaching out by radio as you near it. If these radios do all this then why buy a HAM? That's really a simple answer. HAM is your long-range radio. I won't go into specfics here or I will lose the readers but with the right license, radio, antenna, there are very few limitations to range. They can use repeaters and there are more of them than GMRS. To put this in simple military terms, the GMRS/MURS are squad radios basically for multiple communications within short distance. The HAM is your company radio that can reach out to contact batallion or division. In civilian terms, GMRS/MURS for around your neighborhood/small town and HAM town to town. Now for another general statement, the advantage of the short range radio is not being heard over a long distance which increases privacy. The advantage of the longrange radio is being heard over longdistances. Both play an equal but different role in survival planning. Oh well sorry I got off on a radio tangent but the MURS has been on my keep an eye on list for quite sometime and is finally getting priced now to where its very affordable. Tj |
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Note I am a ham, and always recommend ham radio.
Having said that, I do use my gmrs radio's all the time as my kids don't have their ham licenses (yet) but my gmrs licence covers the whole family. If you want to use an external antenna, you will probably have to go ahead an look at commercial equipment (vs bubble pack/consumer radios). That would mean that you are giving up the main advantage of 'cheap' radios. The reason is that those consumer radios pretty much always include the FRS frequencies which are restricted from the use of external antennas. Yes you would increase the radio range very much by using an external antenna with more gain. Especially if you can get it up on a roof or other structure. I've used my bubblepack gmrs radios in the desert canyons around Las Vegas with no problem, but it was over a range of only a few hundred meters. In a shtf situation, I would only 'rely' on those gmrs for a max of those few hundred meters.
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You have the classic example of what I was referring to. You're using GMRS as your squad (in this case femily radio) and your ham as your long-distance radio. Tj |
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The SCCX off-road club uses GRMS, CB, and amateur radio to communicate with. We often get a dozen or more trucks out in the desert strung out over several miles at times. There will be a trail leader, navigator (the guy with the computer topo GPS), and an amateur radio operator in the first three trucks. At the rear we put another amateur radio operator. Trip before last that was me.
We had a guy in the number 9 truck that was a bit slower than the rest and he ended up splitting the group into two groups. The first group got miles ahead of the second and we soon found ourselves out of GRMS radio contact and then CB contact. Amateur radio was a piece of cake - full quieting - the receiver's meter pegged at the maximum using 50-60 watts worth of power and 4-6 dB worth of antenna. Crystal clear perfection - better than a cell phone! The front group got together and found where the #9 truck had taken the wrong trail and we back tracked to find the rest of the group. GRMS across a dead nutz flat open desert without a piece of metal in the entire valley except fourteen trucks and a few hundred pounds of lost gold nuggets gets a good mile to two miles. CB radio is much better than that and will do four or five but that takes good terrain and antennas. With a ham radio you're talking 50 to 65 watts and very good quality antennas with some good gain - as the smaller wavelenghts need smaller antennas to get going. That 50 watt radio with a 6 dB top-of-the-line antenna is like it's transmitting 200 watts worth of power. Ham is the only way to get 18 miles - and even then it's terrain dependent. Do a google search for Radio Horizon Calculator. Two guys standing with billion watt transmitters using a VHF/UHF radio will only be able to talk a couple of handfuls of miles because the darn earth is round. |
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Great information. Thank you TJ.
Now I know that I want to look into MURS for now, and once I'm back in the states, I'll check into HAM. Gene |
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Allow me to say thanks to our Ham operators in this thread. This is the type unbiased help that I've been looking for and definately a major step in the right direction for a separate communications forum.
Thanks guys. Tj |
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Holy shit I have a headache! wow lots of info.
Im lookin into similar stuff myself...glad I found this |
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For those interested in MURS, this guy sells them for $49 a piece with free shipping on a pair. He advertises on Rawles' site. Seems like a solid deal -- much more stout than bubble packs.
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GT, that's the guy I've been looking at. You can actually find better deals on eBay. I found a store selling them in packs where it was almost like getting a free radio compared to the $49 guy.
On our last family trip I tried keeping in touch with the FIL in the other vehicle with my FRS radios and they sucked. I didn't bump them up to the GMRS channels to get a little extra power but even with the vehicles within sight of each other we couldn't always communicate reliably. This has me encouraged to do some more testing but I'll still probably end up with the MURS. I'd like 4 preferably so I can have two in service and two charging. southfloridaguns, HF isn't really feasible for close-proximity comms. Not to say it isn't possible, it's just not too feasible. |
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was thinking about just using my motorola frs/grma radios but i have an icom IC-V8 i can program with the murs, so that opens up a whole new world for comms.
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There's that legal snag though. If it's the rig I'm thinking of, it can only legally TX in the ham bands. |
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edit: just scanned through the manual and it says TX/RX 138-174mhz but only guaranteed to TX on 144-148mhz. i dont see where its illegal but maybe someone will chime in. |
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Still a nice little radio though and exceptionally priced. That will probably be my choice for a two meter radio. Yes, Tjs in the market for a two meter radio. Tj |
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TJ i just edited my post. but i can tell you first hand this is a damn nice radio. i have dropped it, kicked it, flooded it with water, its been in burning buildings and has yet to fail me. i love it and would recommend it to anyone. they can be had new off ebay for $125 or so.
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gmrs base- antenna 20 ft, 25 watt base.
mobile 25 watt 1/4 wave antenna. 10 miles max, is what I get. That is 25 watts! |
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Icom is stating technical capabilities, not legalities. To operate on the MURS service (or just about any other service other than Amateur), a transceiver must be "type accepted" by the FCC -- a specific certification. Amateur equipment, while groovy and very flexible, is rarely (if ever) type accepted for use in other services. Now you CAN go the other way -- meaning you can buy a commercial Motorola HT that runs 137-174MHz or whatever and run it on the ham bands with no problem. You just can't buy a ham radio, do a freeband mod and run it in other FCC regulated services. A good example is where the FCC recently rebuked a fire/rescue agency for its members using modified ham radios to operate on their assigned public safety frequencies. Sorry, don't have the reference. I just saw it in an ARRL bulletin not too long ago. |
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I think the V8's are discontinued and their current production cousins can be had for $120 after rebate. However, for the same money you can get a Yaesu VX-170. I know the V82 is 7 watts while most are 5, but I'll plug Yaesu as they really have the market dialed-in when it comes to HT's these days. I've used both and prefer the big Y. Got a stable full of Yaesu's now. Here's a handy site: Gigaparts |
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You can get a 2M Yaesu/Vertex handheld radio for under 150 dollars.
Add on an external mic, 12V battery power cord, SMA adapter, and Yagi antenna, and if the target station is line of sight you're in business. You can also carry it as a walkie if need be. |
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It sounds like the FUMS radio w/ a big boosted power external anetnna would be the best thing short of a Ham radioo then. perhaps it would be possible to get a range of 15 miles to another hight antenna w/o obstructions.
Ultimately though, ham radio would probably be the only pratical way for a handful of houses to communicate around town. BTW, I live in JAX, a very flat city that is not too densly developed and very spread out, so even though there are not to many tall buildings, it is very very far across town. |
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Wait a second, are these little ham radio's? If so, please tell me the ranges on them w/ and w/o external eantennas. |
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Ok, so how does (SHTF situation only, I know it is illegal otherwise) would a handheld 5watt marine VHF radio do, how about a 25watt boat VHF in similiar situations??
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You need to hook up with Jaxshooter and go to a local ham club meeting. You'll be introduced to the world of radio, regardless of whether or not you get into ham as a result. |
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Since Jax is (unless something's changed) the largest city based on land mass in the country you aren't going to do well with anything other than ham if you have any intention of talking say, from the beach to downtown. Heck, from the beach to the Intracoastal.
However, we have very good repeater coverage. St. John's Co. just put one up that's got phenomenal coverage all over Jax (it's right at the county line in Ponte Vedra). NOFARS has several remotes that ensure the entire area is covered. Let me know if you want to hook up. |
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what is NOFARS?
JaxShooter, if you are a Ham operator and there are club meetings, then yes, I might want to go check that out some time. I suppose the Ham is only real option here. I am so glas I resisted the urge to buy the bubble pack GMRS to talk to my GF 10 mile as the bird flies. Marketing BTW, JAX is the largest municipality in the country, but not the largest Metro area. That would go to DFW I believe, followed by ATL. |
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NOrth Florida Amateur Radio Society
I have an Amateur Extra license. I belong to two of the clubs in town. In addition to NOFARS I'm a member of KB4ARS (Beaches Amateur Radio Society. Two other clubs are Range (not sure what their current site is) and OPARC (Orange Park Amateur Radio Club). One thing I'd suggest is joining us for Field Day the weekend of June 23-24. It will provide an opportunity for you to get on the air and talk with local hams. I know that OPARC is having an event for the weekend. Duval ARES is also holding an event geared towards emergency communications on the 23rd. Location TBD.
FRS/GMRS radios can be good in certain situations but covering a city like Jax isn't one of them.
I was speaking purely in respect to land mass. We certainly aren't anywhere close to having a large metro area. |
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When I was deciding what type of comms I was going to pick up, I thought it best to set some parameters for my needs first.
HAM radio is the ultimate for SHTF comms, IMHO, and in the future I plan to pursue it. But, for my immediate comm goals I wanted a shorter range option to use for patrol purposes with the added benefit of a base station with a faily decent radius of range around a BOB/BIL. My immediate concern was for a more specific and shorter range comm system between those in my group, and not a longer range comm system to reach a broader field of users. After examining the various limited range radio options, I settled on MURS. The advantages of MURS over GMRS an FRS have been stated here by others, but the most appealing arguements to me were these: <No license required. <2-watt radios. <Antenna upgrades allowed on handheld, man-portable radios. <Allowable antenna height of 20' above structure, or 60' above ground - whichever is greater (base station use). <Lower number of current users due to the recent creation of MURS and scarcity of dedicated MURS equipment for sale. <Reasonable cost. I picked up a couple of the Kenwood TK 2100 radios, used, with chargers for $100.00/pr. recently. The radios came already programmed for the five MURS channels. A pretty good deal, I thought. The first link below is the source where I purchased the radios. The other links are some general and specific information sites about MURS. Just my $.02 cents...YMMV... mursradio.googlepages.com/ www.provide.net/~prsg/murshome.htm www.wild-ideas.org/radio/tk2100/index.html www.southernce.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/tk2100.htm?E+scstore |
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You've got my attention. I'm looking at these radios. What are your thoughts so far and where'd you get them? |
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Sorry Jax, I forgot to add the links I mentioned in the post. I fixed it. Click on the first link for the source where I purchased mine. The other links have some useful info. |
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Ok. That first link is where I was looking. So what are your thoughts? Have you had a chance to range test them or anything? Were the ones they sent in good shape?
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The units I received were in very good shape, and at least as good or better shape than the Motorola HT1250-LS that I use everyday at work.
I haven't been able to give them a decent range test yet. I just had my wife (a definite tech-NOT) at one end and me at the other up to about 1/2 mile away. They work great so far. My wife grew bored very quickly, so the initial test was short in duration. Hopefully, my brother will make it over this weekend so we can give them a proper test. Now I'm looking at some base stations. I've seen at least one (the DakotaM538-BS) that can be set up as an infrared perimeter alarm in addition to communicating with MURS portable radios. I haven't read enough information on this model base station yet to know whether the quality is very good, but I like the concept. |
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I use a similar system at my property in northern michigan and that's about right. Our 4 watt handhelds maybe get a mile and a half on a good day. We use UHF radios at work (25 watt base and 4 watt hand helds) in the 460 mhz range and that's about what they get. |
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