Ammo type for bear and lion country.

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Posted: 3/11/2017 4:26:56 PM EDT

So looking for ideas on what type of pistol ammo would you carry in Black Bear and mountain lion country!

Might have a job in a national park that has bear and lions yes I know I much rather have a rifle but I know I will always have a pistol on my hip.

Now not sure of the caliber I will carrying 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP so I'd like ideas. What I'm thinking of is carrying a magazine of this ammo just in case.

Looked so far at the Double Tap ammo but wanted to hear what everyone else has to say. Thanks !

Posted: 3/11/2017 4:36:48 PM EDT

[#1]

10mm is the round you seek.

Posted: 3/11/2017 7:37:56 PM EDT

[#2]

Hint: The one on the left.

700-grain 500 magnum (M855 and 9mm for scale)

Posted: 3/11/2017 7:43:40 PM EDT

[#3]

As I believe penetration is the key and not necessarily expansion, I'd probably opt for hard cast lead, preferably a Keith-style bullet if available.
I have Buffalo Bore for .38 Special, and .45 ACP and this for .44 Magnum.
I haven't had a 9mm long enough to look at those types of rounds for it yet, but will be looking for similar.

Posted: 3/11/2017 7:53:52 PM EDT

[#4]

Any of those calibers would probably work for the kitties with a good hard cast bullet not so much for the bruins. Out of those I would take the 45 with a 225 grain hard cast truncated cone.

I spend a good deal of time in cat and bear country and always have a revolver chambered in something that starts with a four.

Posted: 3/11/2017 7:55:21 PM EDT

[#5]

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10mm is the round you seek.

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In a Glock 20.

Posted: 3/11/2017 9:53:59 PM EDT

[#6]

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10mm is the round you seek.

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Posted: 3/11/2017 11:27:42 PM EDT

[#7]

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10mm is the round you seek.

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I agree but he will have a hell of a time getting it to work in his 9 or his 40 or 45.

Posted: 3/12/2017 1:24:41 AM EDT

[#8]

Convert 45 to 40 super

Posted: 3/12/2017 10:42:38 AM EDT

[#9]

The ones you quoted will not stop a bear with any reliability. A lion? Maybe.

I have killed 4 lions and a bear. The last lion was 2 months ago. Took a shot to the heart and lungs, jumped the tree and still did a Mexican stand off with the dogs for about two minutes. The bear was killed 6 years ago. Blew out a 1" diameter hole in his far shoulder blade and he was alive long enough to have caused some damage if he was already pissed off and charging.

Hitting the brain bucket under high stress is highly unlikely. A lion's brain is incredibly small. I will see if I can post a picture up somehow with a scale. But think golfball.

I would carry the pistol for defense from two legged predators and maybe some spray. At least if you get attacked by either (incredibly unlikely) the critter will be able to flavor you up a little.

Keep your eyes up and pay attention.

Posted: 3/12/2017 8:55:43 PM EDT

[#10]

Agree with the incredibly unlikely part and being aware of your surroundings. More than 50 years in the woods and I have been false charged by one small bear that I surprised and one lion encounter that ended bad for the cat. I walked under it at a kill sight. In tight places look up. I'm not an expert by any means but in my experience they are likely to clear the area at their first hint of you. Even so a handgun on my belt and beside my sleeping bag gives me a lot of comfort.

Posted: 3/12/2017 9:17:03 PM EDT

[#11]

Agree with knowing your surroundings that is key and most important of all!

I much rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it also I might be going into someone else's mess!

Have been looking at the 460 Rowland just have not found a conversation for a SIG 220 or 227. Can get it for my XD so might convert that and use as my woods gun.

For my job not sure what caliber I can carry know they are Sig's and have been told everything from anything from the Sig classic any caliber to last department they carried 228 in 9mm so trying to cover all bases.

Had to have to use a 9mm on a black bear. More I'd hate to even have to shoot the bear to start off with!

Posted: 3/12/2017 9:20:55 PM EDT

[#12]

Is this a LE job? Will you be armed in the course of your duties as part of your duties? If so, what kind of ammo is authorized? What calibers are authorized? Everyone's opinion of what you should carry is immaterial if you can't use it by policy.

Posted: 3/13/2017 1:57:47 PM EDT

[#13]

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Is this a LE job? Will you be armed in the course of your duties as part of your duties? If so, what kind of ammo is authorized? What calibers are authorized? Everyone's opinion of what you should carry is immaterial if you can't use it by policy.

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Yes it's a LEO job all I know from talking to Rangers I'd that they use Sig's one park said they are able to use any of the classic line.

The other said they issued Sig 228 so I'm not sure what weapon or caliber they will have me carry that is why I'm trying to get ideas on all caliber.

My woods carry is going to be the 460 or 45 LC.

Posted: 3/14/2017 5:48:11 PM EDT

[#14]

Can the 45 handle 45 super?

Posted: 3/14/2017 7:37:05 PM EDT

[#15]

A good 45 colt hand load is hard to beat. You can get a Redhawk double action revolver in 45ACP/45Colt. The ACP for social purposes and the 45 Colt for most any job fit for a handgun.

Posted: 3/16/2017 2:47:00 AM EDT

[#16]

.

Consult RM-9 for NPS policy.

You will be authorized a Sig Classic pistol, ie p228, p229, p220, p227 etc in 9, .40 or 45. That's it. Some guys talk about waivers for Glocks or other makes and models but I've never ever heard of it actually happening.

NPS policy allows for (poorly quoted from memory) "quality, American made, SAAMI spec, non-remanufactured, brass-cased ammunition designed for law enforcement use." That's it.

You will most likely be issued a Sig p228 or p229 in 9 or maybe .40. By far, unless you're going to a Border park with lots of money, most seasonal staff will get a vintage p228 in 9. Since most of those guns are very old there is a service wide movement to upgrade them but it won't happen any time soon. In my experience most are still very good shooters. If you want anything else from the Classic pistol line, you'll have to provide it yourself and have it signed off by a park armorer and the chief ranger.

Ammunition will most likely be a 124 to 147 gr JHP but each park buys it's own ammo usually from the FBI or DHS contracts so there,s a couple other options. In 9mm we have either 147 gr Winchester Ranger or the 124 gr bonded Speer Gold Dot. I carry the latter in a personally owned P228r.

My advise is to carry what you are issued or allowed. Period. You sound motivated and all but LE these days face dangers that are as political as they are life threatening. IMO all incoming staff would do well by listening and going with the flow. It is stupid easy to either fire or simply not rehire a seasonal LE ranger. I don't want to sound dramatic but carrying an unauthorized gun or a "just in case mag of Copper Bear Killer rounds" will likely result in one of the above.

Good luck with your season and stay safe. Get in touch if you have any other questions.

.

Posted: 3/16/2017 10:43:24 AM EDT

[#17]

I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the bears. Not saying to let your guard down but in my experiences with them they tend to run off or go about their business. I'd say chances of you needing to shoot one is very low.

Posted: 3/16/2017 7:29:08 PM EDT

[#18]

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I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the bears. Not saying to let your guard down but in my experiences with them they tend to run off or go about their business. I'd say chances of you needing to shoot one is very low.

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That is very true but better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it!

Posted: 3/16/2017 10:51:36 PM EDT

[#19]

I didn't realize there are bears in Hawaii.

Posted: 3/16/2017 11:04:14 PM EDT

[#20]

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10mm is the round you seek.

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That's my carry gun in grizzly country.

I killed my mountain Lion with a 243. They are very thin skinned, I carry 180 Gold Dots everywhere else in the state, which has mountain lions (which is the whole state).

Posted: 3/17/2017 11:39:18 AM EDT

[#21]

What 10 mm do you have?

Posted: 3/17/2017 1:10:06 PM EDT

[#22]

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What 10 mm do you have?

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I use a Glock 20 or 29. My wife carries a G20 SF.

You can kind of see our pistols from last time we spent a week at our cabin.

Posted: 3/17/2017 2:16:19 PM EDT

[#23]

I'm seriously considering a Glock. How do like the 29?

Posted: 3/17/2017 6:01:39 PM EDT

[#24]

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I'm seriously considering a Glock. How do like the 29?

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I prefer the full frame for 10mm, but the G29 is great for its uses.

Posted: 3/19/2017 7:14:22 PM EDT

[#25]

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I didn't realize there are bears in Hawaii.

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Sorry

Posted: 3/19/2017 9:53:49 PM EDT

[#26]

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Please don't get me started on that! I have quite a great job with a kick ass boss because the Gov gave me in writing a DOE! Yet they want to play games! My papers say DOE 2/19/17 yet I'm still here! I was given this date almost a month ago!

What is DOE? Date Of Entry! I quite a great job with a boss that is "One of Us!" (Will not go into if we are one of you!" A combat Vet great man someone who helps out his own and LEO a long with firefighters! Yep I'm pissed I was told my DOE was 02/19/17 I bought a ticket set up a place to live! No the Gov did not help with my travel or help me to get a place to live! Also to add the Gov told me I needed to HAVE a vehicle but they where not going to help me get that also!

So no Hawaii does not have bears or lions! Yet there seems to be enough trolls on the Internet for the lack of bears and lions on any part of the Earth there shall be one that shows its true colors!

Troll! Want to know more? Please ask! I don't care but please don't be blind and be a troll! Life events and so much more with Gov jobs can change day to day to hour to hour! Seems to me you might have never been a Gov employee or tired for a Job!! As anyone who has knows what it is like! As said have something personal against me then please send me an IM!!!!! As this is not the area to place PERSONAL feeling about another!

I'f not then you are a troll!

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I'm confused. You posted elsewhere that you were taking a parks job in Hawaii. Guess that fell through?

Can we get a translation here??

Posted: 3/27/2017 12:24:57 AM EDT

[#27]

No pistol commercial caliber pistol chamberings are realistically adequate for bears, and all are marginal, at best, for mountain lions, except, of course, at powder-burn range. In the extraordinarily unlikley event of an actual, unprovoked attack by either a black bear or mountain lion, you probably won't see it coming until too late to react effectively, but if afforded the chance, a revolver, with much bigger and faster projectiles is a better bet. .44 Magnum is demonstrably adequate for black bears and lions, anything lesser, questionable, anything "bigger", better.

Posted: 3/27/2017 2:15:56 AM EDT

[#28]

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No pistol commercial caliber pistol chamberings are realistically adequate for bears, and all are marginal, at best, for mountain lions, except, of course, at powder-burn range. In the extraordinarily unlikley event of an actual, unprovoked attack by either a black bear or mountain lion, you probably won't see it coming until too late to react effectively, but if afforded the chance, a revolver, with much bigger and faster projectiles is a better bet. .44 Magnum is demonstrably adequate for black bears and lions, anything lesser, questionable, anything "bigger", better.

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Um, no. Mountain Lions are very easy to kill, and 10mm is more than adequate for lions and Black Bear.

Posted: 3/27/2017 2:22:56 AM EDT

[#29]

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Can the 45 handle 45 super?

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Depends on the gun. Change the barrel on a G21 and the recoil spring and you're done. On a USP, change the recoil spring and that is it. With an SA 1911, change out the recoil spring and use a mag with a stiff 8 round spring and download it to seven and you'll be good to go.

Posted: 3/27/2017 2:23:27 AM EDT

[#30]

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10mm is the round you seek.

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Posted: 3/27/2017 2:24:06 AM EDT

[#31]

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In a Glock 20.

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10mm is the round you seek.

In a Glock 20.

With a light.

Posted: 3/27/2017 2:25:18 AM EDT

[#32]

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In a Glock 20.

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Quoted:
10mm is the round you seek.

In a Glock 20.

No truer words have been spoken......

Posted: 3/31/2017 11:03:07 AM EDT

[#33]

A lot of people fuss over their load out and that's not a bad thing but once you settle on what you want I submit to you that it's more important that you actually train with it.

A lot.

Settle on how you think you want to carry everything and then practice dry fire. Start out with slow, deliberate draws just like you would if you really needed to. Then see if anything gets in the way. See what it's like using your weak hand to defeat a layer of clothing if you have stuff that covers your holster.

Then speed up.

Then practice with live fire.

It's not easy to be fast and accurate but it can be done with practice. It just takes time.

And that's without the stress of a life or death situation.

Trust me when I say those dry fire reps could help save your life one day.

It kills me when I see a guy with a gun stuffed in his front pocket of his pants and he hasn't shot it or even practiced drawing it in months or even years.

Posted: 4/17/2017 12:27:45 AM EDT

[#34]

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No pistol commercial caliber pistol chamberings are realistically adequate for bears, and all are marginal, at best, for mountain lions, except, of course, at powder-burn range. In the extraordinarily unlikley event of an actual, unprovoked attack by either a black bear or mountain lion, you probably won't see it coming until too late to react effectively, but if afforded the chance, a revolver, with much bigger and faster projectiles is a better bet. .44 Magnum is demonstrably adequate for black bears and lions, anything lesser, questionable, anything "bigger", better.

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Umm what

? Are we talking North American mountain lions here, not African right, because a 10mm is easily enough for these cats. And even enough for black bear but a bigger caliber on bear is always better as they are tough animals even smaller ones.

Posted: 4/18/2017 9:05:26 PM EDT

[#35]

I know it does not apply here but I did a lot of research into a bear gun (grizzly) and I ended up carrying a ruger 7-1/2" super redhawk loaded with 330 gr superhardcast 44 mag +P garrett hammerhead

Yeah, those things got a little kick

Posted: 4/25/2017 2:27:12 AM EDT

[#36]

"Mountain lions" (felis concolor, et seq.) are a distinct Western Hemisphere (vs. "North American") species, not to be confused or conflated with the entirely different African species, which was never contemplated in the OP or subsequent discussion. Of course it's possible to kill large animals with pipsqueak cartridges ---see Karamojo Bell for examples ---but realistically, one wants at very least, the terminal ballistic performance of a typical .44 Magnum revolver load, or more, for clean, humane, one shot, dead-right-there kills on either black bears or mountain lions. Expecting otherwise from lesser calibers is wishful thinking.

Posted: 4/25/2017 2:45:43 AM EDT

[#37]

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"Mountain lions" (felis concolor, et seq.) are a distinct Western Hemisphere (vs. "North American") species, not to be confused or conflated with the entirely different African species, which was never contemplated in the OP or subsequent discussion. Of course it's possible to kill large animals with pipsqueak cartridges ---see Karamojo Bell for examples ---but realistically, one wants at very least, the terminal ballistic performance of a typical .44 Magnum revolver load, or more, for clean, humane, one shot, dead-right-there kills on either black bears or mountain lions. Expecting otherwise from lesser calibers is wishful thinking.

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Sage advice.

Posted: 4/29/2017 12:36:43 AM EDT

[#38]

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Um, no. Mountain Lions are very easy to kill, and 10mm is more than adequate for lions and Black Bear.

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Please cite adequate examples of "easily-killed" Mountains Lions to support your assertion, particularly, those that you yourself have killed with a 10mm pistol, or of which you have first -hand knowledge. Also, please cite any evidence of the adequacy of the 10mm pistol round for humane, one-shot kills on black bears of any sporting size (assuming you're not counting infant cubs dragged out of their mother's dens...) Your experience will help establish the veracity of your assertions, and ought to be cited as well...

Posted: 4/29/2017 12:40:13 AM EDT

[#39]

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Please cite adequate examples of "easily-killed" Mountains Lions to support your assertion, particularly, those that you yourself have killed with a 10mm pistol, or of which you have first -hand knowledge. Also, please cite any evidence of the adequacy of the 10mm pistol round for humane, one-shot kills on black bears of any sporting size (assuming you're not counting infant cubs dragged out of their mother's dens...) Your experience will help establish the veracity of your assertions, and ought to be cited as well...

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lol

Posted: 4/29/2017 8:24:15 AM EDT

[#40]

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lol

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Posted: 4/30/2017 1:18:04 AM EDT

[#41]

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lol

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Quoted:

Please cite adequate examples of "easily-killed" Mountains Lions to support your assertion, particularly, those that you yourself have killed with a 10mm pistol, or of which you have first -hand knowledge. Also, please cite any evidence of the adequacy of the 10mm pistol round for humane, one-shot kills on black bears of any sporting size (assuming you're not counting infant cubs dragged out of their mother's dens...) Your experience will help establish the veracity of your assertions, and ought to be cited as well..

.

lol

That's what I thought --- "lol" --- an unfounded, ungrounded assertion not based on any experience, just an opinion assumed from reading ballistics tables, or maybe second-hand from other sources, or maybe just made-up, in any event, all equally useless, invalid, worthless. Actual experience counts, nothing else matters...

Posted: 4/30/2017 5:49:58 AM EDT

[#42]

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That's what I thought --- "lol" --- an unfounded, ungrounded assertion not based on any experience, just an opinion assumed from reading ballistics tables, or maybe second-hand from other sources, or maybe just made-up, in any event, all equally useless, invalid, worthless. Actual experience counts, nothing else matters...

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Yes, that's alot of adjectives, and proper nouns

Rest assured that I know of what I speak. You sit in your fiefdom, I'll sit in mine.

The 10mm is plenty for Mountain Lions and black bears.

Posted: 5/1/2017 1:24:21 AM EDT

[#43]

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Please cite adequate examples of "easily-killed" Mountains Lions to support your assertion, particularly, those that you yourself have killed with a 10mm pistol, or of which you have first -hand knowledge. Also, please cite any evidence of the adequacy of the 10mm pistol round for humane, one-shot kills on black bears of any sporting size (assuming you're not counting infant cubs dragged out of their mother's dens...) Your experience will help establish the veracity of your assertions, and ought to be cited as well...

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Your funny

Posted: 5/8/2017 2:09:03 AM EDT

[#44]

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Your funny

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Well, here we have yet another example of why these forum discussions are seldom very informative --- BeardownAZ says, (apparently having skipped the spelling and punctuation portions of his education, if any?) : "Your funny", and adds some emoticon, which I gather is intended to indicate ridicule of my comment. I had simply asked for any evidence of the adequacy/potency of the 10mm pistol round, but, have yet seen none, merely the assertions of an apparent arm-chair-expert with no actual experience of killing either bears or mountain lions, and BeardownAZ's nitwit, semi-literate reply. If mere conjecture, unfounded opinion, unsupported opining, and outlandish assertions are accepted as stock-in-trade here, what's the point of worthless chatter and drivel?

Posted: 5/8/2017 3:42:47 AM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:

Well, here we have yet another example of why these forum discussions are seldom very informative --- BeardownAZ says, (apparently having skipped the spelling and punctuation portions of his education, if any?) : "Your funny", and adds some emoticon, which I gather is intended to indicate ridicule of my comment. I had simply asked for any evidence of the adequacy/potency of the 10mm pistol round, but, have yet seen none, merely the assertions of an apparent arm-chair-expert with no actual experience of killing either bears or mountain lions, and BeardownAZ's nitwit, semi-literate reply. If mere conjecture, unfounded opinion, unsupported opining, and outlandish assertions are accepted as stock-in-trade here, what's the point of worthless chatter and drivel?

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Just stop. You are not the end all, be all of hunters.

c

Posted: 5/10/2017 4:30:46 AM EDT

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
"Mountain lions" (felis concolor, et seq.) are a distinct Western Hemisphere (vs. "North American") species, not to be confused or conflated with the entirely different African species, which was never contemplated in the OP or subsequent discussion. Of course it's possible to kill large animals with pipsqueak cartridges ---see Karamojo Bell for examples ---but realistically, one wants at very least, the terminal ballistic performance of a typical .44 Magnum revolver load, or more, for clean, humane, one shot, dead-right-there kills on either black bears or mountain lions. Expecting otherwise from lesser calibers is wishful thinking.

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For bear country: I came to post that 44 magnum would be my minimum choice. Glad to see I'm not the only one. If stuck in an auto loader, it would be a 45.

If not for bears, I'm fine with my 9mm.

Posted: 5/15/2017 11:33:46 PM EDT

[#47]

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.

Consult RM-9 for NPS policy.

You will be authorized a Sig Classic pistol, ie p228, p229, p220, p227 etc in 9, .40 or 45. That's it. Some guys talk about waivers for Glocks or other makes and models but I've never ever heard of it actually happening.

NPS policy allows for (poorly quoted from memory) "quality, American made, SAAMI spec, non-remanufactured, brass-cased ammunition designed for law enforcement use." That's it.

You will most likely be issued a Sig p228 or p229 in 9 or maybe .40. By far, unless you're going to a Border park with lots of money, most seasonal staff will get a vintage p228 in 9. Since most of those guns are very old there is a service wide movement to upgrade them but it won't happen any time soon. In my experience most are still very good shooters. If you want anything else from the Classic pistol line, you'll have to provide it yourself and have it signed off by a park armorer and the chief ranger.

Ammunition will most likely be a 124 to 147 gr JHP but each park buys it's own ammo usually from the FBI or DHS contracts so there,s a couple other options. In 9mm we have either 147 gr Winchester Ranger or the 124 gr bonded Speer Gold Dot. I carry the latter in a personally owned P228r.

My advise is to carry what you are issued or allowed. Period. You sound motivated and all but LE these days face dangers that are as political as they are life threatening. IMO all incoming staff would do well by listening and going with the flow. It is stupid easy to either fire or simply not rehire a seasonal LE ranger. I don't want to sound dramatic but carrying an unauthorized gun or a "just in case mag of Copper Bear Killer rounds" will likely result in one of the above.

Good luck with your season and stay safe. Get in touch if you have any other questions.

.

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Thanks I hear you! I'm not going to push anything since I'm going to be a probation officer for a year! I hope to do my 20 years at Big Bend it's my dream job and took me 6 years to get it!

As you said there are a lot of calibers and firearms that can be used. The supervisor I have talked with said SIG and I'd have to take a SIG class did not say anything about the caliber.

Not going to push anything until my year is done. I know how to stay under the radar! I do hope we use 226 not the 228 as they do in Hawaii.

I have been given a DOE and shown what house will be mine! My family will not live with me but will be 75 miles away in Alpine. Better schools and wife works at the hospital!

Posted: 5/15/2017 11:43:02 PM EDT

[#48]

Since we are talking self defense 9mm is fine for both.
If hunting a rifle.
Black bears are wimps and they will run if hurt.

Posted: 5/24/2017 9:26:33 AM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

Well, here we have yet another example of why these forum discussions are seldom very informative --- BeardownAZ says, (apparently having skipped the spelling and punctuation portions of his education, if any?) : "Your funny", and adds some emoticon, which I gather is intended to indicate ridicule of my comment. I had simply asked for any evidence of the adequacy/potency of the 10mm pistol round, but, have yet seen none, merely the assertions of an apparent arm-chair-expert with no actual experience of killing either bears or mountain lions, and BeardownAZ's nitwit, semi-literate reply. If mere conjecture, unfounded opinion, unsupported opining, and outlandish assertions are accepted as stock-in-trade here, what's the point of worthless chatter and drivel?

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