Brothers of the Shield hive mind... Subject: duty shotguns

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Brothers of the Shield hive mind... Subject: duty shotguns

Posted: 8/1/2005 7:56:03 PM EDT

I recently posted a thread in the General Discussion about the History of Combat Shotguns
( if your interested here is the link but it is not necessary ) :

History of Combat Shotguns

After posting it, I was wondering about the kind of shotgun I would like to dream up
vs. hard, cold reality. I mean everyone wants a reliable firearm. What works & what
doesnt ?

I decided to come here to where the meat touches the metal. Experienced opinions are what I am interested in.

1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?

2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?

3) If you could, what changes would you make ?

4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?

5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?

I appreciate you time.

LB

Posted: 8/1/2005 8:01:06 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I recently posted a thread in the General Discussion about the History of Combat Shotguns
( if your interested here is the link but it is not necessary ) :

History of Combat Shotguns

After posting it, I was wondering about the kind of shotgun I would like to dream up
vs. hard, cold reality. I mean everyone wants a reliable firearm. What works & what
doesnt ?

I decided to come here to where the meat touches the metal. Experienced opinions are what I am interested in.

1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?
Sling, forend light, and side saddle
2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?
It looks bad ass
3) If you could, what changes would you make ?
None
4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?
Pump...cause I know it's gonna go boom
5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?
Distance shots
I appreciate you time.

LB

Posted: 8/1/2005 8:06:29 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
I recently posted a thread in the General Discussion about the History of Combat Shotguns
( if your interested here is the link but it is not necessary ) :

History of Combat Shotguns

After posting it, I was wondering about the kind of shotgun I would like to dream up
vs. hard, cold reality. I mean everyone wants a reliable firearm. What works & what
doesnt ?

I decided to come here to where the meat touches the metal. Experienced opinions are what I am interested in.

1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?

2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?

3) If you could, what changes would you make ?

4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?

5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?

I appreciate you time.

LB

1. Forened Light, Rifle sights (ghostrings are neat, but I prefer precision.), Fixed stock, 8+1 capacity.

2. I love it for the fact that it scares the ever living shit out of bangers and other 2-legged miscreants. For some reason, ARs just don't get the same reaction when pointed at a BG as the 12 ga does.

3. Can't think of any atm.

4. Pump. Easier for me to swap LL rounds into the gun if I need to.

5. Lack of range and misconception among officers of "nasty" recoil.

Sheep

Posted: 8/1/2005 8:07:38 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I recently posted a thread in the General Discussion about the History of Combat Shotguns
( if your interested here is the link but it is not necessary ) :

History of Combat Shotguns

After posting it, I was wondering about the kind of shotgun I would like to dream up
vs. hard, cold reality. I mean everyone wants a reliable firearm. What works & what
doesnt ?

I decided to come here to where the meat touches the metal. Experienced opinions are what I am interested in.

1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?
Extended tube, pistol grip buttstock, light attachement, and sling

2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?
The real big boom it makes

3) If you could, what changes would you make ?
None

4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?
Pump. Very reliable and the racking sound gets everyone's attention...went to a large fight call and racked mine over the PA....everyone decide they had other places to be.
5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?
Some of the less skilled officers are scared of it. Hard to get over fences while carrying one.

I appreciate you time.
Thanks for the good questions.

LB

Posted: 8/1/2005 8:21:12 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I recently posted a thread in the General Discussion about the History of Combat Shotguns
( if your interested here is the link but it is not necessary ) :

History of Combat Shotguns

After posting it, I was wondering about the kind of shotgun I would like to dream up
vs. hard, cold reality. I mean everyone wants a reliable firearm. What works & what
doesnt ?

I decided to come here to where the meat touches the metal. Experienced opinions are what I am interested in.

1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?
We have Mossberg 500/590 w/ 8 round capacity. Saftey is ambidextrous so even our southpaws can use it. Ghost ring sights - sturdy and easy to use. Obviously a sling.

2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?
It does have it all covered in the intimidation department. On felony t/stops, I can guarantee the 1 oz. slug will not have any problem going straight through the window and hitting its target in the event I have to shoot.

3) If you could, what changes would you make ?
Probably switch to a pistol grip stock. It'd be nice since the dept owns all of them if they switched to the 14" barrel/5 rounder, toss on a forearm light.

4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?
Pump

5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?
Hesitancy to remove it from squad in some situations that it ought to be. Usually due to not enough manpower on scene and not wanting to get stuck having to carry/secure it if you get into a tangle. They're not really that light, therefore my reasoning for the shorter barrel, pistol grip

I appreciate you time.

LB

Posted: 8/2/2005 12:56:12 AM EDT

[#5]

I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

Posted: 8/2/2005 2:07:57 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

The problem with the whole racking of the slide issue, in my humble opinon, is that your pump-gun (or any otherweapons system, for that matter) should have a round chambered and be ready to go before you are in hearing range of the bad guy, or else you are an IDIOT.

I did freak out a bunch of dregs hanging in a parking lot last night as I chambered a round on my beanbag gun on the way inside the church to talk to the guy who was cutting on himself. They calmed down when they realized I was on the way to talk to someone else. Just turned my "lethal" 870 in yesterday, though. With my M4 finally having a rack, it is kind of a uneeded system anymore.

Posted: 8/2/2005 3:01:36 AM EDT

[#7]

I am now retired, but still instruct, so I guess that qualifies me to comment here.

I like reliable, short, slick shotguns for duty use. I like fore end lights and the option to use a sling when I want to or take it off for searches, etc. I prefer a 14" barrel with a +1 extension to the 2 or 3 shot extensions and longer barrels, and most guns will have stocks that are just too damned long, so a shorter stock is a definite plus. Ghost rings are nice, but not necessary...a big, bright bead is almost as good for shot use. For instructing, the rifle sights are more easily understood by most officers since they mimick the sights on the handgun, but I am not a fan of rifle sights in general. The oversized safety button is a great addition for an 870.

IMO it is still the best system for situations where both you and your target(s) are moving under low light conditions and ranges are at or under 20yd. or so, which takes in a lot of LE patrol situations. For many years I carried with me (in the vehicle!) a select fire Steyer AUG and an MP5 in addition to my shotgun. As a Canine Supervisor and handler I almost always chose the shotgun when going on a track or a search as back up because I felt...and still do...that it was the best weapon for what was likely to be a short range confrontation...in my area, often in thick woods at night.

Changes? Once the gun is set up like I prefer it, none, but the single biggest change needed for issued guns for general use IMO is shorter stocks.

Pump guns are much more reliable for duty use.

Shortcomings...the combination of lack of training / familarity, recoil and guns that do not fit many officers. Nothing that could not be worked out, but I do not see the desire to seriously address these issues with any agencies I know of...unfortunately. While I, for one, do not see the shotgun's limited range as a "shortcoming", it certainly can be a limitation in some circumstances, but that does not mean it is still not a very useful tool in the toolbox.

Posted: 8/2/2005 3:14:05 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
1) What do you like in a shotgun as far as features/controls/capacity for duty ?

14" barrel, forend light, sidesaddle, rustproof finish, ghost ring sights

2) What do you love about your duty shotgun in general ?

Reputation of the shotgun

3) If you could, what changes would you make ?

It is what it is

4) Pump vs Auto What do you prefer ?

Pump, for reliable functioning with the combination of light and low recoil ammo. The Benelli semi-autos I've seen will jam with that combo.

5) If you could name any shortcomings of a duty shotgun, what would they be?

We went to AR15 rifles for general issue, which was a great decision. Easier to use, less intimidating for the officers, more similar to pistols in theory of operation, malfunction clearance, etc. Less chance of stray pellets flying down the street and easier, more effective hits at distance.

But the few guys who are still issued the shotguns love them. Our inner primate recognizes the intimidating aura of the sheer size of the end of that barrel.

Posted: 8/2/2005 4:08:17 AM EDT

[#9]

Great posts guys !

Bump for the morning crew.

LB

Posted: 8/2/2005 4:46:23 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

I double checked. I found one reference to racking the slide in this thread - over the squad's PA upon arrival at a large fight call. Sounds like damn good psychological tactic to me, seeing as we don't store the guns with rounds chambered, right? It has to be racked prior to use, why not let all the participants in the fight know that the shotgun just arrived.

To clarify my response for you, I didn't mention the slide racking sound as being intimidating. The large diameter 12 gauge barrel facing the bad guy is the intimidating part.

Posted: 8/2/2005 5:38:25 AM EDT

[#11]

Pump. Only pitfall is if you short stroke it. More reliable IMHO.
Must have's Extended capacity. Sling (climbing a fence is a bear) Shorter Stock to fit body armor. Light on it if you work at night.

Posted: 8/2/2005 8:18:25 AM EDT

[#12]

Most of my problems are with the ancient, Dept issued 870's. Most of these problems have been rectified in my personal shotty, a Mossy 590. Here they are in no specific order:
1. Low capacity. The Dept 870's are bone-stock, meaning 4rd capacity. My 590 is 8rd.
2. Sling. Again, the Dept 870's are bone-stock, no sling. I have one on my 590.
3 Extra ammo. My 590 has a speedfeed stock and a side-saddle, the 870's have neither.
4. Sights. I'd love rifle sights. Unfortunately, both my 590 and the Dept 870's have beads. As long as you clean them, the brass beads are big and bright and work OK, though, out to 50-60ft, especially for snap-shooting.
5 Range. This is my biggest gripe about shotguns, the limited range. With a smoothbore tube, even slugs are only good (read: accurate enough to assure a good hit) out to 50-60 feet, at least with the less-than-precise bead sights I've always used. A shotty set up with rifle sights may be better, I've never used one to see.
6. Recoil. 12 gauges kick like a mule. Of course, to get the terminal effects they usually have, the recoil is an acceptable trade-off, at least to me.

Myself, my dream combat shotgun would be something like a Siaga with an 8rd mag and a somewhat shorter barrel. A pump function would be good, too, just in case you have a malf on light loads, just pump it and go. Shottys with both semi and pump functions tend to be heavy and complicated, however, taking away from the simplicity of the design. For general duty use, a pump shotty works just fine- simple and easy to use.

I wish the Dept would let me carry my Mossy, but they won't. So, I'll keep using the 870's on duty, knowing and remembering their shortcomings- and carrying an extra box or two of ammo with me!

Bub

Posted: 8/2/2005 10:33:45 AM EDT

[#13]

Standard 870 with a sling, pistol grip speedfeed stock, and peep sights. I can't really think of any real shortcomings aside from loading. Although to be honest, I carry the AR almost exclusively these days.

Posted: 8/2/2005 10:38:04 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

The problem with the whole racking of the slide issue, in my humble opinon, is that your pump-gun (or any otherweapons system, for that matter) should have a round chambered and be ready to go before you are in hearing range of the bad guy, or else you are an IDIOT.

I did freak out a bunch of dregs hanging in a parking lot last night as I chambered a round on my beanbag gun on the way inside the church to talk to the guy who was cutting on himself. They calmed down when they realized I was on the way to talk to someone else. Just turned my "lethal" 870 in yesterday, though. With my M4 finally having a rack, it is kind of a uneeded system anymore.

Unfortunately we are not allowed to carry our shotguns with a round in the chamber in the squad car and I would feel like more of an idiot stopping enroute to a hot call, putting a round in the chamber, getting back in the car and then continuing on to the call. It is much easier to get there, grab the shotgun out of the rack as I am getting out of the car and racking a round as I am moving towards wherever I need to go.

Posted: 8/2/2005 12:19:45 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

The problem with the whole racking of the slide issue, in my humble opinon, is that your pump-gun (or any otherweapons system, for that matter) should have a round chambered and be ready to go before you are in hearing range of the bad guy, or else you are an IDIOT.

I did freak out a bunch of dregs hanging in a parking lot last night as I chambered a round on my beanbag gun on the way inside the church to talk to the guy who was cutting on himself. They calmed down when they realized I was on the way to talk to someone else. Just turned my "lethal" 870 in yesterday, though. With my M4 finally having a rack, it is kind of a uneeded system anymore.

Unfortunately we are not allowed to carry our shotguns with a round in the chamber in the squad car and I would feel like more of an idiot stopping enroute to a hot call, putting a round in the chamber, getting back in the car and then continuing on to the call. It is much easier to get there, grab the shotgun out of the rack as I am getting out of the car and racking a round as I am moving towards wherever I need to go.

They all ride "Cruiser Ready," with an empty chamber (Carbine, rifle and Beanbag gun and shotgun when I still had one) but you should be parking far enough away from the target that your bad guy(s) never hear they slide being cycled.

Posted: 8/2/2005 1:52:05 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

The problem with the whole racking of the slide issue, in my humble opinon, is that your pump-gun (or any otherweapons system, for that matter) should have a round chambered and be ready to go before you are in hearing range of the bad guy, or else you are an IDIOT.

I did freak out a bunch of dregs hanging in a parking lot last night as I chambered a round on my beanbag gun on the way inside the church to talk to the guy who was cutting on himself. They calmed down when they realized I was on the way to talk to someone else. Just turned my "lethal" 870 in yesterday, though. With my M4 finally having a rack, it is kind of a uneeded system anymore.

Unfortunately we are not allowed to carry our shotguns with a round in the chamber in the squad car and I would feel like more of an idiot stopping enroute to a hot call, putting a round in the chamber, getting back in the car and then continuing on to the call. It is much easier to get there, grab the shotgun out of the rack as I am getting out of the car and racking a round as I am moving towards wherever I need to go.

They all ride "Cruiser Ready," with an empty chamber (Carbine, rifle and Beanbag gun and shotgun when I still had one) but you should be parking far enough away from the target that your bad guy(s) never hear they slide being cycled.

Alot depends on the type of call. Call of a big fight (15, 20 people or more involving knives and guns) I am driving right up to the scene (with another squad or two), blipping my siren as I approach so that, hopefully, all the little bastards run away. Officer is stopping a stolen car and performing a felony stop, I am driving right up to the scene.

So there are times when you (well, at least I) will be driving my squad right to the scene and on those calls I will use whatever tricks/tools that I can to gain compliance.

Posted: 8/2/2005 5:19:12 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I find it interesting to see the number of responses re-enforcing the intimidation factor of the slide-racking. Whenever I see this brought up in GD, everyone laughs at the rediculousness of how someone is stupid enough to be intimidated by the sound of a shotgun being pumped. As LB put it, you guys are where the metal hits the meat, so I'd take your word over a bunch of armchair commandos.

Well when I was a young man, I snuck into a certain girls window. I heard that sound that evey one knows, no mater from what planet they were born on. My nike's lost their soles that night. And I had to throw away my tightie whities.

Posted: 8/3/2005 3:14:59 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

IMO it is still the best system for situations where both you and your target(s) are moving under low light conditions and ranges are at or under 20yd. or so, which takes in a lot of LE patrol situations. For many years I carried with me (in the vehicle!) a select fire Steyer AUG and an MP5 in addition to my shotgun. As a Canine Supervisor and handler I almost always chose the shotgun when going on a track or a search as back up because I felt...and still do...that it was the best weapon for what was likely to be a short range confrontation...in my area, often in thick woods at night.

I'm amazed you were able to fit an AUG, MP5, and Shotgun along with everything else in your vehicle!

You mention when you liked to use the shotgun, but what determined when and which of the other two you'd deploy? If you want we could take this to a new thread, I'm not intending to hijack here, but I'm very interested in this subject. When I'm a LEO I intend to have at least one long gun with me (assuming the dept allows it).

Posted: 8/3/2005 3:56:21 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:

IMO it is still the best system for situations where both you and your target(s) are moving under low light conditions and ranges are at or under 20yd. or so, which takes in a lot of LE patrol situations. For many years I carried with me (in the vehicle!) a select fire Steyer AUG and an MP5 in addition to my shotgun. As a Canine Supervisor and handler I almost always chose the shotgun when going on a track or a search as back up because I felt...and still do...that it was the best weapon for what was likely to be a short range confrontation...in my area, often in thick woods at night.

I'm amazed you were able to fit an AUG, MP5, and Shotgun along with everything else in your vehicle!

You mention when you liked to use the shotgun, but what determined when and which of the other two you'd deploy? If you want we could take this to a new thread, I'm not intending to hijack here, but I'm very interested in this subject. When I'm a LEO I intend to have at least one long gun with me (assuming the dept allows it).

My vehicle was, for many, many years, either a full size Blazer or Bronco, so...technically...I had no "trunk", but we built a big storage box that did a pretty good job, The shotgun rode up front in a locked rack and the other two were in the box in padded nylon cases (Assault Systems IIRC) Obviously, the shotgun was closest to hand and usually my preference. Depending upon the administration (I worked under several different Sheriffs) use of the rifle or subgun was either considered no big deal or they wanted you to sign over your first born child before you took either one out!

I was assigned the MP because I was a subgun instructor. I preferred to keep it with me rather than at home, even in a safe, due to the shitstorm I knew would happen if it ever got stolen. Except for a few stake outs and some combined operations with SWAT, I almost never used it and finally gave it back to SWAT when they added some guys to the team and needed more gear. The rifle was used when I felt I might need it...my discrection...back then, very few officers had anything other than shotguns and slugs were not issued, although lots of guys had their own. There were places in the county where back up might take 30 minutes to reach you if they actually knew your exact location, not to mention dead spots for radio coms and nights when only 3 or 4 guys were working in the whole county. Usually it was dead after 2AM, but not always!

Later I was forced into a small Blazer with the dog in a carrier made for the back seat, so things got cramped! (and a whole lot busier)

More discussion is fine with me, but I agree we should not hijack this thread.

Posted: 8/3/2005 4:12:57 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

IMO it is still the best system for situations where both you and your target(s) are moving under low light conditions and ranges are at or under 20yd. or so, which takes in a lot of LE patrol situations. For many years I carried with me (in the vehicle!) a select fire Steyer AUG and an MP5 in addition to my shotgun. As a Canine Supervisor and handler I almost always chose the shotgun when going on a track or a search as back up because I felt...and still do...that it was the best weapon for what was likely to be a short range confrontation...in my area, often in thick woods at night.

I'm amazed you were able to fit an AUG, MP5, and Shotgun along with everything else in your vehicle!

You mention when you liked to use the shotgun, but what determined when and which of the other two you'd deploy? If you want we could take this to a new thread, I'm not intending to hijack here, but I'm very interested in this subject. When I'm a LEO I intend to have at least one long gun with me (assuming the dept allows it).

My vehicle was, for many, many years, either a full size Blazer or Bronco, so...technically...I had no "trunk", but we built a big storage box that did a pretty good job, The shotgun rode up front in a locked rack and the other two were in the box in padded nylon cases (Assault Systems IIRC) Obviously, the shotgun was closest to hand and usually my preference. Depending upon the administration (I worked under several different Sheriffs) use of the rifle or subgun was either considered no big deal or they wanted you to sign over your first born child before you took either one out!

I was assigned the MP because I was a subgun instructor. I preferred to keep it with me rather than at home, even in a safe, due to the shitstorm I knew would happen if it ever got stolen. Except for a few stake outs and some combined operations with SWAT, I almost never used it and finally gave it back to SWAT when they added some guys to the team and needed more gear. The rifle was used when I felt I might need it...my discrection...back then, very few officers had anything other than shotguns and slugs were not issued, although lots of guys had their own. There were places in the county where back up might take 30 minutes to reach you if they actually knew your exact location, not to mention dead spots for radio coms and nights when only 3 or 4 guys were working in the whole county. Usually it was dead after 2AM, but not always!

Later I was forced into a small Blazer with the dog in a carrier made for the back seat, so things got cramped! (and a whole lot busier)

More discussion is fine with me, but I agree we should not hijack this thread.

Very cool, thanks for the explanation; I just may start a thread later on to go more in depth on the subject.
Balisong

Posted: 8/3/2005 11:49:31 AM EDT

[#21]

I have often wondered if I put together a Remington 11-87 with a mag extention and a 20" rifled barrel would be a good patrol weapon. I looked at a new sabots from winchester and a 12 guage Platinum Tip™ Hollow Point Slug 400 Gr. OZ #SABOT SLUG looks like it would be pretty bad to deal with.

I have seen several departments that are shying away from buck shot and moving into slugs, this is a cheap viable option for a patrol rifle/weapon. 400gr slug with about a .50 sized bullet. Yea.

Posted: 8/3/2005 7:43:37 PM EDT

[#22]

I personally prefer a semi with rifle sights, extended magazine, spare rounds on the receiver, sling, and some sort of white light.
Shortcomings include more perceived recoil as compared to a patrol rifle and slower reload time. Otherwise, they are fine weapons.

Posted: 8/4/2005 1:07:25 AM EDT

[#23]

semi auto; gas gun only, no recoil ops. allows one hand, wounded shooter ops, less chance of the SGN messing up. Use a dedicated SGN for LTL rounds, bad form to do otherwise, begging for a bad shoot. Rem 11-87P.

iron sights; more accuracy is better.

pistol grip; see first part.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Brothers of the Shield hive mind... Subject: duty shotguns

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