Firearms training officers

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Firearms training officers

Posted: 9/21/2014 11:11:50 AM EDT

i'm doing a research project on the use of the 308 round in law enforcement. What I'm needing is specific departments that authorize the use of the 308 round

I'm working on a formal proposal to allow the limited use of this round in my department and need examples of policies for my proposal.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Posted: 9/21/2014 11:23:33 AM EDT

[#1]

Are you looking at the .308 for LE sniper weapons, or for patrol rifle use? Would make a difference.

I know of a few agencies that allow .308 for patrol rifle use, but you will probably find many different answers depending on the area. Most big city agencies wouldn't allow a 30 cal rifle for patrol, due to politics, over penetration etc..

Posted: 9/21/2014 5:31:09 PM EDT

[#2]

The use would be for patrol but in a limited capacity in order to address a different level of potential threat. I fully understand the over penetration issue involved with the 308. It's definitely not the weapon to clear a home or trailer with for several reasons but under certain circumstances there is an appropriate role for the weapon, even in urban areas.

Can you give me any agencies you are familiar with who authorize its use as a patrol rifle?

Posted: 9/21/2014 7:35:36 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
The use would be for patrol but in a limited capacity in order to address a different level of potential threat. I fully understand the over penetration issue involved with the 308. It's definitely not the weapon to clear a home or trailer with for several reasons but under certain circumstances there is an appropriate role for the weapon, even in urban areas.

Can you give me any agencies you are familiar with who authorize its use as a patrol rifle?

View Quote

Our agency has M14's for ROAD PATROL (we are phasing them out) and our issued round is the 110gr Hornady TAP. While the M14 is NOT the ideal weapon for CQB and house clearing, the .308 round is WITH THE RIGHT AMMO. I'm the Sniper Team Leader for my agency and our duty round is the Hornady 168gr TAP.

At the IALEFI conference last year, we watched the Hornady Rep shoot both rounds into ballistic gel and there were no issues of over penetration on either round... extremely devastating, large temporary wound cavity, rapid expansion and fragmentation, and no over penetration concerns.

What people fail to realize is the advancements in TERMINAL BALLISTICS make the .308 a GREAT round for CQB even in close quarters.

Posted: 9/21/2014 9:24:42 PM EDT

[#4]

My rural SO has plans to get M14's transferred from another agency. At least one will be rebuilt into a DMR/sniper rifle. The others will likely be available to patrol. Ideally, I'd want to shorten the patrol ones to 18", but I don't know if our meager budget will allow that. 1033 says they must be returnable to original configuration, but I have seen agencies weld/cut dovetails in DOD 1911A1 slides.

Sage/Vltor/McMillan/Troy stocks will probably have to be individual officer purchase, but authorized. I don't have any policy examples... I would be interested in your findings.

Bowhntr6pt, what are they being replaced with?

Posted: 9/21/2014 10:32:10 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
My rural SO has plans to get M14's transferred from another agency. At least one will be rebuilt into a DMR/sniper rifle. The others will likely be available to patrol. Ideally, I'd want to shorten the patrol ones to 18", but I don't know if our meager budget will allow that. 1033 says they must be returnable to original configuration, but I have seen agencies weld/cut dovetails in DOD 1911A1 slides.

Sage/Vltor/McMillan/Troy stocks will probably have to be individual officer purchase, but authorized. I don't have any policy examples... I would be interested in your findings.

Bowhntr6pt, what are they being replaced with?

View Quote

AR15's.

Posted: 9/22/2014 12:29:44 AM EDT

[#6]

I know of several agencies that do this. They trade optically sighted AR15s for iron sighted M4s and shoot it out with drug growers in the national forest or in one case in Arizona they use it for a covering position on checkpoints.

What do you intend to do with it specifically? BW DocGKR said a while back that he has been unable to find of an instance of someone in the US taking a 155 AMAX to the torso and surviving.

Posted: 9/25/2014 8:37:13 AM EDT

[#7]

The Kentucky State Police carry M1A/M14 with a 168 grain Federal Sierra Matchking BTHP. Policy dictates that each post has at least two rifles with at least four Troopers trained to use them. They are carried in cruisers as patrol rifles and we have a couple spares at post.

Posted: 9/25/2014 11:40:01 AM EDT

[#8]

Not aware of any agencies that use it for patrol, it's a popular sniper setup though. I know of a couple of agencies that have M-14's, but no idea of their use policy.

Posted: 9/25/2014 12:23:55 PM EDT

[#9]

Our department is (finally) getting AR platform weapons in service, and has a few in .308 for test purposes, with the intent that they be used for longer than the 150 yard working distances they anticipate for the .223 patrol rifles.

Let me see if I can get the paper supporting the concept from the gun guys.

Posted: 9/28/2014 8:13:28 PM EDT

[#10]

CA game wardens carry a AR-10 read a great article on it somewhere this year too.

Posted: 9/28/2014 8:42:09 PM EDT

[#11]

We have a .308 policy for patrol use. It is limited in the deployment and qual is out to 300.
Just 2 weeks ago a NM SP sniper used his .308 quite effectively.

Posted: 9/28/2014 8:51:09 PM EDT

[#12]

John Chapman at LMS Defense probably has documentation on it.

Posted: 9/29/2014 7:53:48 PM EDT

[#13]

My question would be...what specific scenarios are you looking at where you see a distinct tactical value to using .308 Win over 5.56 NATO? I don't disagree that there are some very good LE CQB-tailored loads available which negate the overpenetration concerns, but at the same time I'm not seeing the distinct value of going to a heavier cartridge for patrol purposes. Snipers are a whole different ballgame, of course.

Posted: 9/30/2014 7:42:49 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
My question would be...what specific scenarios are you looking at where you see a distinct tactical value to using .308 Win over 5.56 NATO? I don't disagree that there are some very good LE CQB-tailored loads available which negate the overpenetration concerns, but at the same time I'm not seeing the distinct value of going to a heavier cartridge for patrol purposes. Snipers are a whole different ballgame, of course.

View Quote

I agree with this. The only thing I'd take a .308 for is a vehicle assault and maybe a barricaded suspect where I knew I wouldn't be making entry. If you are in some kind of DM/sniper capacity as well sure. It'll shine in defeating barriers like class, car doors, etc. but if your using rounds for this you're gonna have over-penetration issues in your standard situations.

Heavier rifle, more recoil, mags/ammo weighs more, etc. Also lets factor in a .308 is a lot less wieldy. A 16" BBL .308 AR handles a lot less efficiently then a 16" BBL 5.56 AR.

I think the caliber makes sense in the scenarios I listed above but other then that I wouldn't see myself choosing it over 5.56.

Posted: 10/2/2014 9:34:34 PM EDT

[#15]

I'd take a .308 over 5.56 any day of the week out in the brush.

Posted: 10/3/2014 4:40:54 PM EDT

[#16]

Everyone I work with had a .223 except that one guy. He has a SOCOM 16. No policy on it though.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Firearms training officers

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