California and New York does not share much in common, quite the contrary, it's akin to saying Texas and California share similar firearms law.

List of Manufacturers that sell their lowers to California, factory direct, off the top of my head:
LMT
CMMG
Spike's Tactical
Fulton Armory
Stag
Noveske
Tactical Innovation
Territorial Gunsmith
Kaiser Defense
Cavalry Arms
Superior Arms
DSA

Through a middleman California can and do get EVERYTHING out there except a small handful of previously LISTED lowers by the California Department of Justice. The list does not include the majority of modern day AR manufacturer's, such as Larue Tactical. Hence you get many agitated emails asking why you do not sell a completely legal, unlisted lower to a state where your product is highly prized.

Here is the complete List of "BANNED by name" rifles in the state of California:


Note that the above only name COMPLETE rifles or lowers that explicitly marked with the same model name as the list. RRA for example are completely legal as long as they are not mated with an RRA upper since their lowers are i no way marked with any model number like the list. Anyone else on that list with a different model number is also legal, ie. some unlisted Colt's, KAC etc. Yes it sounds complicated, but unless your COMPLETED rifle AND lower is marked exactly the same as that list than it's completely legal (once configured legally) to have in the state of California. Stripped lowers only need to meet one requirement and that isnot to be on that list explicitly, beyond that stripped lowers do not have to meet any other legal requirement.

Any thing on this list is a no-no: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf

anything not posted there is good to go in cali. i was beat to the punch

Here's the thing Mark, many of your customers are form California. Maybe one of your IT people can write an SQL script to pull from your database how many of your customers are from California and decide for yourself if all of those AR-centric products you make are going to California to go on what type of rifle. I love your product and honestly couldn't care less that you do not want to sell only one of your SKU's to California. That said I can understand some people frustration out there since they view this as a slap in the face as they otherwise love your product.

Think of it this way, quite a large number of Californian's invest a large amount of money with your product, they do their due diligence and decided yours was the best product on the market. They buy your mounts, uppers and love getting your Christmas Armadillo's. Than you introduce a lower marked with your name and these same rabid fan boys can't wait to show their Larue-fandom by being the first in their block to have a completely Larue made rifle. You than turn around and say "OH NO YOU DIDN'T", that's where the backlash comes from.

Again, mine your OWN database and see the what the percentage of your customers are in California, how often, how much and how much repeat business they give you. This is coming from an analyst point of view, ignore the politics, stick with the numbers.

SMOS had no problem sending lowers to CA before they started making lowers exclusively for your company.

I know a dealer who has two stores, one in NV and one in CA. They will actually bring complete rifles into CA, after they have been shipped to their NV store so they can install a bullet button and a 10-round mag. I have walked into their CA store (this was months ago) and seen complete LMT, Noveske, and Stag AR-15's on their wall. These rifles did not arrive in CA as stripped lowers, either. This is totally legal to do, in fact when I was there the place was filled with cops buying items.

It isn't hard to get what you want in CA if you know who to talk to. It just has to be an off-list receiver, LaRue receivers fit into this category.

Anvil Arms and Spikes tactical has no problem shipping over to CA.

unless you are unfortunate enough to be on the CA Kasler list, there is no reason why a lower shouldn't be able to be sent over to CA.

It has to be neutered first (aka bullet button + 10-round mag). You can't have a pistol grip, collapsible stock or flash suppressor in conjunction with a detachable mag.

Note this only applies to COMPLETE rifles, NOT stripped lowers.

Stop being scared, post the name. The TX and CA store you speak of is Cold War Shooters.

Just to name a few others
Lan World
DD's Ranch
Henderson Defense
Anvil Arms

I'm not a CA resident anymore but I stopped buying LaRue products and support the CA boycott on any manufacturer that turns it's back on the bastardization of 2a rights.

J&J Armory in Santa Ana.

LOL, of course a CA company will ship to CA, Mike wants to know out of CA dealers/manufacturers that will ship into CA.

Did you bother reading the entire thread? He's asking how his lowers are ending up here. I explained one method.

Because even if the rifle/lower isn't banned by name, the complete rifle would be a CA "Assault Weapon" until the bullet button has been affixed. Once the bullet button has been attached, it would no longer be considered a CA AW, either by name, or features, and can be shipped to any FFL in California.

They ship full rifles to Nevada possibly to install california compliant parts like bullet buttons and 10 round mags if they have centerfire uppers and bolts... it's a silly rule but no FFL wants to break it in fear of losing their license.

However in terms of stripper lowers, they're completely legal to purchase without any california compliant items as they could be used to build a rimfire rifle.... which don't fall under the same assault weapons ban regulations.

I've purchased stripped lowers from random dealers... CMMG, LMT, Spikes Tactical etc etc

Your products are shipped to CA on a regular basis. Good products btw. ;)

Mark, we were all excited as a 9 old on christmas day when we got wind that you were making lowers.  Your stuff is top notch.  I personally have one of your handguards and i will be coming right back for another for my next build.  Hell my dillo is the official beer bottle opener in my home.  But like bob said we were all let down when you ignored us even though it is 100% legal to send straight to our ffl's.  Its your business and your decision, dont know if any of this will convince you but know that it is legal to have here and youll have a little more money in your pocket if you shipped lowers out here, even though you probably dont need it but in this case more is better

Because that would be illegal, cupcake.

Now on the other hand if I decided to sell it and send it to an FFL in CA, that would be perfectly legal.

So they are fixed stock plus they have to do without one of the other features?  I'm guessing it's gonna be the flash supressor, 'cause I'd be lost without the grip.

You'd be surprised how many pissed off Larue owners are out there, I talked to a few last weekend at a local range. I am a long time customer and if you have notice I have never weighted in on this topic until now. But since you asked for Californian's opinion I decided to finally give mine.



Now this is where we see the backlash against YOU specifically. What's there to "smuggle"? Are you implying we're some sort of tiny community in California breaking the law? You have seen the forum we speak on, check out how many members ar eon it, how active it is and what exactly it is that we stand for. It's alright for you not to want to ship a lower marked with your logo to California IMO. But comments like that somehow makes it seem you think no one in California owns an AR and anyone that does is breaking the law. Is that your implication? Or are you trying to say something else?

FYI Mark: Look at the numbers, there are approximately 3,000 people online on THIS forum right now. There are about 1,000 people online for the "other" forum where you have read that thread. Those are the numbers your looking at. Again, I urge you to simply look at your database to see HOW MANY CUSTOMERS of yours are in California. If there aren't that many than your right, some people are shilling, if there are indeed MANY than see what the numbers tell you.

No, you can indeed have a collapsible stock. You just have to install a device that "permanently" fixes the magazine in place. If you have a detachable mag, you can't have a collapsible stock, pistol grip, or flash hider. Installing a bullet button allows you to have all of the other evil features.

I have no dog in this fight, but I do know that LaRue is a small shop. Type10 FFLs have been "CavArmed" over a helluva lot less than this.

ETA: It's easy to sit back and criticize when it's not your payroll (or ass) on the line.

Yes, there's a lot of BS crap in California and we are trying our best to change things around. However, we still have a long way to go, but for many of us, moving is not an option, so staying and fighting is pretty much the only option we have.
More gun owners in California means more people on "our" side, so not shipping to California isn't really helping the fight, on the contrary, it's actually just what the antis want. If you don't agree with the silly BS we have here, wouldn't it be better to support the people fighting the BS and give the finger to the people who thought all this crap up, rather than falling into the trap and do exactly what the antis want?

Vulcan


IMO - and not directed at you per se - it seems makers/sellers that refuse to ship to CA seem to think the people - the very people that want your product - are responsible for the laws and so take the heat for the laws as though we want it this way as CA residents. That is, I have read numerous posts around the web of vendors (Gun Broker is a great example) who will not ship to CA until "we" get our state straightened out - as though "we" were the ones who actually put the laws on the books that make non CA vendors sketched out. it is as though they - vendors not willing to deal to CA - are holding me/us accountable for the CA legislators decisions/laws... like a bizarre form of punishment.. despite the fact I am trying to spend my money with you and it is likely your product is legal here, but becuase we are stringent CA you fear some sort of generic back lash if your product gets into CA. So in the end, I will just spend my money elsewhere if your fear CA as there are vendors that get over it, sell to us, and see no issues.

scouter is FOS Mark.

in his nextpost he types this––––
Did you bother reading the entire thread? He's asking how his lowers are ending up here. I explained one method.



see the word "here".

yeah not in calif huh?

he's here to stir,

Rainier Arms

You have the wrong person quoted princess.
That was member ftwm saying that not I, nice try at playing internet private eye. Please go back to playing with dolls.

Have you ever lived in California?

He has and he's giving his opinion. This is a conversation between Mark Larue and people that live or have recently lived in California. That is if I am wrong, correct me if I am Mark.

Wrong yet again princess, I'm not a CA resident anymore. Thanks for caring though.

LWRC for complete rifles










 

It's perfectly legal to send stripper lowers to california... if it's not... a WHOLE LOT of people need to go to jail... I'd have like 10 sentences myself.

Being that DOJ hasn't sent me a letter or anyone I know with 100s of stripped lowers combined... I think we're safe.

Again... lowers built for rimfire don't fall under the assault weapons ban... they can have every supposed evil feature mines a grenade launcher.

A person can take a Larue Lower... slap a Spikes 22lr upper on it and it's a completely legal rifle... without a bullet button.

No.

ETA: Here is the list of what you CAN'T have:

AR-15 Series Weapons

American Spirit
USA Model

Armalite
AR 10 (all)
M15 (all)
Golden Eagle

Bushmaster
XM15 (all)

Colt
Law Enforcement (6920)
Match Target (all)
* AR-15 (all)
Sporter (all)

Dalphon
B.F.D.

DPMS
Panther (all)

Eagle Arms
M15 (all)
EA-15 A2 H-BAR
EA-15 E1

Frankford Arsenal
AR-15 (all )

Hesse Arms
HAR 15A2 (all)

Knights
SR-15 (all)
SR-25 (all)
RAS (all)

Les Baer
Ultimate AR (all)

Olympic Arms
AR-15
Car-97
PCR (all)

Ordnance, Inc.
AR-15

Palmetto
SGA (all)

Professional Ordnance, Inc.
Carbon 15 Rifle
Carbon 15 Pistol

PWA
All Models

Rock River Arms, Inc.
Standard A-2
Car A2
Standard A-4 Flattop
Car A4 Flattop
NM A2 - DCM Legal
LE Tactical Carbine

Wilson Combat
AR-15

it's not so much that i want to buy any products...i have zero Larue products to date (although they are very nice)...i just feel it necessary to fight against anything that goes against our 2a rights. As a manufacturer, I think it is a benefit for all for them to not further limit our 2A rights

This is more about educating the rest of the country that we CAN own AR15 rifles in CA. Most would like to write us off. But many are beginning to realize that they can make a lot of money by selling to us. Ha! Sound familiar?  

 

Mike, Mark, Mel, do I really care about larue?

I dont really care... I think LaRue is a shit product anyway.

You care enough to troll this thread. Enjoy.

If there are so many of you, why can you not assemble to elect competent officials to fix the ridiculous firearms laws you have?

Mark, I am giving my opinions on this thread as a Californian, a firearms owner, a Lifetime member of the NRA, a Veteran, but the two most important are:

- A long time Larue customer
- A Financial Analyst

I do not fault you for not wanting to ship your lower to California. It's a small part of your business and the margins you make on it are probably not that great. You have a product in high demand that you do not have much in stock of. From a business stand point you loose NOTHING by not wanting to sell your stripped lower to California. From a financial stand point it does not matter if your looking at Quickbooks and your bottom line, but here is where a financial analyst like me will look at it different than an accountant.

Good Will

No, not the thrift store, the not quite measurable but somehow quantifiable variable that any company would pay millions for. Your name, your reputation, the fact that when I call your shop at 6PM Central time YOU answer the phone. You Mark Larue have quite a bit of good will allotted to you by your customers, their word of mouth and the firearms community at large. I don't know of many company or corporation with the amount of good will that you have, GM would pay millions to you if they could take some of it from you. It all sounds a bit hocus pocus, but if you ever wanted to buy another company you will see Good Will listed as an actual Asset and how much it will cost you to acquire that asset.

Now here's the problem with Good Will:

Along with a customer base and great word of mouth, news about you and your company will also travel quickly throughout your prospective customer base. Note I am talking PROSPECTIVE, as in those that have heard of your name but have not bought anything from you yet. When people are in this subset they look for one thing: BAD NEWS. This is why company that are introducing new products or attempting a marketing campaign would cringe at the thought of any bad news. Wendy's is the best example, a FALSE claim about a finger in their Chili cost them more Good Will and the bottom line than anything they could have ever done. That is because this one bit of BAD NEWS, though false, was enough reason for any prospective customer to turn away.

How does this affect you?

It affect you because you have quite a bit of Good Will. I know that Mark Larue, the man, 100% stands behind his product and will do anything to correct a problem. That gives me great comfort to know that if I ever knock my T-1 mount out of whack you would replace it without any question. It gives me confidence to mount all of my ACOG's in Larue mounts not simply because of the product, but because of the good will inherent in the brand of the company. That makes me a loyal customer and I am one of the many that will say: If Larue is an option, Larue is the solution. But along with this loyal customer base also exist the potential for BAD NEWS to spread about you.

So how does this all matter with a lower?

Well, it matters if you have a large California customer base, but even if you don't it still matters. When word got around that you won't sell YOUR lower to California that of course get's Californian upset. This will impact your Good Will with your customer base in California, now depending on the amount of customers you have in the state of California it might or might not impact your bottom line to a large degree. But here's where Good Will and the internet meets. Your company is primarily a word of mouth operation, I have seen your advertisement but I think you would agree with me that your Good Will/Brand alone is the best advertisement you have. On a forum like this you will see a few people weigh in to defend your decision. But what you won't see are the other people that read something like this and change your opinion about Larue Tactical as a brand. Now many people on this forum and across the country put down the state of California. But they do this as a matter of frustration and sometimes in jest, as I like to believe the majority of 2A supporters in this country would not simply abandon the rest of us in California. I am going to go out on a limb and say that the number of people supporting California gun owners far outweighs those that do not. Now this group look at a thread like this and all they see is your brand, Larue Tactical, not wanting to support firearms owner in California. The fact that it's California will lessen the impact on your Good Will, but an impact is an impact, and a company base don Good Will hurts more financially from this slight impact than one base don advertisement.

What can you do?

Well you can ignore it all, which I believe you have been thinking might not be the wisest course of action. I have been following these exchanges in the past, but this is the first time I believe you are giving this serious consideration, hence this thread is the first you have ever seen my contribution to the topic. Again you can continue to just not sell lowers to California and you would not loose much on the bottom line. But doing so will affect your Good Will and Brand as a whole. From a business prospective, having your Brand be mired in controversy in the 10th largest economy on Earth is a bad thing. But with the internet, this will also spread nationwide. The internet is a double edge sword, you get instant feedback, but you do not get COMPLETE feedback. the majority of people will NOT give you feedback and often this group far outnumbers those that does weigh in and give feedback. By continuing with the same policy as you have now, it will continue to degrade your Brand and Good Will with your customer based in California and Nationwide. Now this might or might not affect your bottom line and business, that all depends on how large of a customer base you have in California and how much people care nationwide.

You can change your policy and sell your lower to California. This will give all those "shilers" a chance to scream out: I TOLD YOU SO! But by doing so, your Good Will and Brand will instantly be boosted within the state of California. Nationwide it will not affect you much as most people couldn't care less if you sold lowers to California. But again, it's a one way street, they might not care if you SELL to California, but they probably will if you DO NOT SELL to California. Again, all the good you do will not travel as far as the one negative opinion someone else might have. I do not discount the negative Good Will which might be generated if you do change your policy. But from an analyst point of view, the Good Will you might loose by changing your policy is minimal to the Good Will you loose by NOT changing your policy.

Basically it behooves you to make this all go away and keep the Californian like us quiet and content. I can say all i want to try and convince you, but you yourself would know how much bad a small ruckus group of people can do pitted against a group 100x the size praising your product.

I urge you to look at this subjectively from a financial standpoint. Doing so requires you to examine your customer base (who and where they are), how much of your product they buy and the impact your policy have on those numbers. Of all the brand out there I think your company understands the concept of Good Will and Brand above all other, again, look at it subjectively. Your decision is your decision, but you do run a business, look at it from that point of view and leave any personal or pre-conceived ideologue out of the decision making process.

Mr. La Rue, we in CA have a hard enough time fighting the people that dont like guns. I would appreciate it if you see the light shone forward by your competitors, and remove restrictions on sales to CA We dont need that to get what we want, it would just be helpful. Those of us that choose to stay in this sate and fight the oppressive laws would greatly appreciate it. We wont be begging you to do it, that is not our style, We will stand tall with your products or without. Someday there will be a need for people like us that know how to fight the machine and win. We will be here when you need us. No strings attached.

well said,  why can't one just call  Cal. office of BATF and get the answer from the people that enforce the laws?  Seems like the quickest way to get the right info...

there you go right there... the exact mentality that causes much of this grief.

comments like this appear as though you seem to think we are not all on the same side - some sort of "us" out here and "you" in there mentality. That those of us in CA - gun owners that is and simple CA residents - put these officials, and thus their laws, into place and are directly responsible for our ills.

There are 'many of us' and many good people are working on it around the clock day by day spending money and fighting bills & laws in court, but getting the right people in place isn't really that easy.

we are on the same team, we just live in 2 different states