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Posted: 12/24/2001 11:55:45 AM EDT
[#1]
Just thought some of you frustrated Californians might like to know. Yes, thanks. Any chance you can post a copy of the DOJ letter? If the takedown pin proves to be hard to get hold of, order an extended one from Watson's Weapons for $5.95: [url]http://www.watsonsweapons.com/products/50boss.htm[/url] |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 11:25:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Sweet. I hope my local gunshops will be selling them soon, or perhaps at a gunshow. I want one of these. There's a 14 inch Bushy upper I saw at a gunshop for $630..I'd really love to make use of it. :)
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:43:45 AM EDT
[#3]
Since you guys are obviously in Caliban-occupied territory, are you allowed all the goodies like bayonet lug, flashhider, etc? Also, whats the price on these things?
Kharn |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:58:26 AM EDT
[#4]
The price is listed at the web site, which I don't have the url for, something like $169.
Does anyone know who gogogadgets contracts to make the lower receiver? Just wondering since there could always be another list added to RR. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:40:26 AM EDT
[#5]
How does one load the thing? I saw something about having a fixed 10 round capacity and having no pistol grip. But if it has no pistol grip, can't you legally have a detachable mag?
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Posted: 12/25/2001 12:26:14 PM EDT
[#6]
As per the website, [url]gogogadgets.net[/url] price is $169.95 for the basic, stripped lower.
Add $60.00 for an assembled lower using USGI parts and grip, no stock. Add in some shipping and handling and dealer costs and it's not exactly cheap, but it's the only game in town right now. ($169.95 + 60.00 = $229.95 + tax + CA DROS + s/h + dealer costs = ?) The rifle is loaded by pulling the rear takedown pin, tilting the upper and using stripper clips down into the fixed mag. Sorta' like the DSA CA legal FAL, except you gotta tilt it open. As far as pre ban stuff, I don't know. Fixed, nondetachable mag, like an SKS. The dealer said I would have to use a post ban upper, I disagree. Gotta do some research. Skunkabilly, yes and no. An FAL can have a detachable mag as long as it has no pistol grip. The same does not hold true for AR or AK series rifles. USNVet, I will post pics ASAP. A copy of the DOJ letter comes with each lower, I will attempt to post that as well. Thanks for the tip on the extended takedown pin. Merry Christmas everyone! Edited to add that California rules suck the big donkey c**k. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 1:18:43 PM EDT
[#7]
This lower, not having a detachable magazine, nor a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds, cannot be considered an "Assault Weapon" under current federal or Kaliban law. Therefore, you can use uppers with any number of "pre-ban" features on it. NFA barrel lengths still apply, though, as does Kaliban's new over-all length (30", measured with stock CLOSED) law.
-Troy |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 9:27:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Troy, so I can use a flash hider, pistol grip and collapsible stock. If it meets the barrel length and overall length requirements, it's good and legal?
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Posted: 12/26/2001 10:00:31 PM EDT
[#9]
That's correct.
-Troy |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 10:07:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Havent you people revolted against your corrupt and out of control gov. in Kali yet? WTF u guys get busy![uzi][whacko][rocket]
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Posted: 12/26/2001 11:26:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Havent you people revolted against your corrupt and out of control gov. in Kali yet? WTF u guys get busy![uzi][whacko][rocket] Please, explain just how we're supposed to go about doing this revolting thing. Does it include Rambo-ing up and charging the Capitol with my big 'ol honking knife in my teeth, small tactical nukes in mail boxes, or what??!! Perhaps it involves some kind of keyboard commando operation led from deep within the revolutionary nerve center/trailer park? What??!! I know I join many here in California who'll wait with great anticipation to learn how this revolt is supposed to go... |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 11:44:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Quoted: Havent you people revolted against your corrupt and out of control gov. in Kali yet? WTF u guys get busy![uzi][whacko][rocket] Please, explain just how we're supposed to go about doing this revolting thing. Does it include Rambo-ing up and charging the Capitol with my big 'ol honking knife in my teeth, small tactical nukes in mail boxes, or what??!! Perhaps it involves some kind of keyboard commando operation led from deep within the revolutionary nerve center/trailer park? What??!! I know I join many here in California who'll wait with great anticipation to learn how this revolt is supposed to go... You would think that the smiley face icons were enough.... Some people[rolleyes] |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 11:55:44 PM EDT
[#13]
OK, my bad. Maybe just a tad sensitive, even!
I did kinda have fun imagining the Rambo with knife in teeth charging up the Capitol steps though! [:P] |
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Posted: 12/27/2001 10:27:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Is this anything like an SKS Magazine ? I know on an SKS, you can turn it upside down and drop in 10 Rounds, close and you're loaded.
1) Hold The Rifle Upside Down 2) Open The Bottom Of The Magazine and allow the follower and Floorplate to pivot out. 3) Tilt towards side opposite raised section of follower. 4) Drop in 10 Rounds, being carefull not to drop any in backwards. 5) Close Magazine, Depressing Follower Against Rounds until you hear a click. 6) Flip over rifle 7) Chamber a round 8) LET ER RIP. Can this be done with one of these lowers. If so I might be interested in buying one just to make a rifle with all the nasty features that the ATF so hates. |
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Posted: 12/27/2001 11:33:09 PM EDT
[#15]
No, you can't open it from the bottom (unless you use a Dremel tool). It's a closed bottom mag well with a chopped USGI mag fitted inside. The only way to load it is from the top, with the upper tilted open.
I will post pictures as soon as I take possession of it. |
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Posted: 12/28/2001 12:12:52 AM EDT
[#16]
They should build an upper you can top load with a built in stripper clip guide. Even better, a system with clips like a Garand.
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Posted: 12/28/2001 12:24:20 AM EDT
[#17]
i thought this lower was a joke?
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Posted: 12/28/2001 9:08:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Havent you people revolted against your corrupt and out of control gov. in Kali yet? WTF u guys get busy![uzi][whacko][rocket] Please, explain just how we're supposed to go about doing this revolting thing. Does it include Rambo-ing up and charging the Capitol with my big 'ol honking knife in my teeth, small tactical nukes in mail boxes, or what??!! Perhaps it involves some kind of keyboard commando operation led from deep within the revolutionary nerve center/trailer park? What??!! I know I join many here in California who'll wait with great anticipation to learn how this revolt is supposed to go... You would think that the smiley face icons were enough.... Some people[rolleyes] Ohh, whoa with you silly surf. Think not of rebellion, but instead learn to kiss the pimple butts of our great Caliban leaders. Soon you will learn to pop their butt zits with your teeth. (can't [s]smell[/s] spell) |
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Posted: 12/28/2001 9:20:38 AM EDT
[#19]
Or you could excise them one at time with the Rambo knife...
[image]http://www.lileknives.com/bothramb.jpg[/image] |
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Posted: 12/28/2001 12:21:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Look, the guy who designed this lower did so because there is demand for SOMETHING that will accept STANDARD AR15 uppers and still be semiauto and legal in the PRK. This is as close as anyone is going to get. Don't take out your frustration with the law on the one guy willing to spend his own money pushing it to the edge of the legal envelope for the benefit of the rest of us.
-Troy |
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Posted: 12/28/2001 12:28:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Hehe… we can’t revolt, were unarmed!
FAB 10’s are legal in CA and it looks like I might end up building one sometime in the near future. My question is how hard is it to reload one of these FAB10’s? Can you burn your self while trying to reload it, especially after putting a few hundred rounds though it in a single firing session? Compared to a real AR15 receiver, do you think it’s worth getting . Thanks for the info. |
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Posted: 12/28/2001 2:41:45 PM EDT
[#22]
know i must get one stripped that never had buttstock and make a ar15 pistol!!!!
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Posted: 12/29/2001 4:22:13 PM EDT
[#23]
This is gogogadgets speaking. First I want to thank Troy and operatorerror for their support. They both seem to know what they are talking about. The receivers are not contracted out. I machine, finish and check each one for fit myself. That's why you might have to wait a few weeks to get one. I cannot produce them as fast as people want them. Yes they are on the tight side of fit but that's because that is the way I wanted them. You can always loosen them up but it is hard to tighten up a loose, sloppy receiver. These were built for hunting and accuracy - not speed loading. Even so, with the stripper clip guide you can reload in ten to fifteen seconds no problem. The finish is excellent. I have had absolutely not one complaint thus far from any dealer who has purchased them. Website will be updated within the next 30 days or so with a better, more accurate picture. The price is very reasonable considering the quality and all of the time and effort it has taken to get this cleared and approved by California DOJ.
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Posted: 12/30/2001 12:04:42 AM EDT
[#24]
CMS (Your Gogogadgets Right), if I choose to provide the Lower and Magazine and have you alter them, do you ship directly back rather than to an FFL since it is sent interstate for "repairs/gunsmithing."
Also, couldn't one of these be built into a Pistol (Virgin Lower Of Course) since it doesn't utilize a Detachable Magazine ? My Final Question is can you make one in 9mm ? |
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Posted: 12/30/2001 1:13:47 AM EDT
[#25]
CMS, thank you so much for doing this. Believe me, all of us here in Caliban occupied territory appreciate this so much. I have a few questions though, and these are probably going to sound stupid...the first one, is there a number I can call or a person I can e-mail/write to at the Califoristan DOJ to confirm this legality of this? I trust you, but I am extremely paranoid and would like to check. I get this way about a lot of things, I like to check 100 times before I do anything. Second, are there any gunshops in Southern Californistan that have ordered these yet? I was in a gunshop today and heard some people talking about them. Sounds like the word is getting out. And these were older gentlemen, they run a small gunshop that deals strictly in older military rifles. I asked if they had any, and they said they didn't carry them, but they had seen one. That's it. Again, I thank you for doing this. We all appreciate it out here.
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Posted: 12/30/2001 8:59:08 AM EDT
[#26]
All I hear is if you are from California "move". Well that is easier said than done. When something like the FAB-10 from Gogogadgets comes out it gets hammered because it is a California legal solution. There are a lot of people waiting for this.
It always easier to be on the sidelines and point and laugh at us behind enemy lines, but it harder to stay in California, do the right things. Are you registered to vote? Are you a member of a gunrights organization? Are you helping us or them? |
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Posted: 12/30/2001 6:33:37 PM EDT
[#27]
CMS (Your Gogogadgets Right), if I choose to provide the Lower and Magazine and have you alter them, do you ship directly back rather than to an FFL since it is sent interstate for "repairs/gunsmithing."
Also, couldn't one of these be built into a Pistol (Virgin Lower Of Course) since it doesn't utilize a Detachable Magazine ? My Final Question is can you make one in 9mm ? ___________________ As far as modifying your existing receiver and shipping it directly back to you, this is not a problem. The problem is no one has been able to tell me exactly how to list the receiver once it is modified. For example the FAB10 is classified as a non-assault weapon both federally and California DOJ but if you have a colt for example and I modify it, even though it is physically a FAB10 it still has the colt markings which will cause confusion with law enforcement individuals. Until I can get a straight answer, I will not attempt this. As far as pistol - yes it can be made into a pistol as long as it is registered as a pistol. Finally, I plan on offering a 9mm version but at this time I am concentrated on trying to meet demands of the 5.56. Hopefully within the next six months I will have other calibers. Thanks. Craig |
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Posted: 1/1/2002 8:09:02 AM EDT
[#28]
I'm envious of those who move and what they can purchase. However, I respect those that stay and fight.
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Posted: 1/1/2002 2:07:01 PM EDT
[#29]
I have one more question..how does this go around the SB23 in this way..I thought all AR15 series rifles were banned? Does this technically not qualify as an AR15? Now....the fun part. :)
I think I'm going be purchasing one of these within the next 6 months are so..so..I need to know a few things. First of all..I can only use post ban parts right? And the gun must exceed 30 inches correct? And, because it has no detachable magazine, I can use a full size pistol grip? Thanks. :0 |
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Posted: 1/1/2002 3:17:30 PM EDT
[#30]
acfs - first off as for SB23 which deals with descriptions of characteristics of a rifle that will classify it as an assault weapon, it starts out stating that a center fire rifle with the ability to accept a detachable magazine and any of the characteristics such as pistol grip, flash hider or collapsible stock would put the rifle into the classification of an assault weapon. There is also a section that states if it has a box magazine capable of holding more than ten rounds then the characteristics apply also.
There is no regulations on box magazine with a maximum capacity of ten rounds or less. California DOJ and BATF both agreed that the modification to the receiver was major enough and would not easily allow the receiver to be converted to detachable magazine type that they issued me a letter stating that the receiver does not fall under assault weapon regulation or under the SB23 characteristics law. Post or preban parts do not apply to this receiver. They only apply to receivers that fall under assault weapon regulation. Those parts in themself without a receiver do not in themselves make an assault weapon. If you use a collapsible stock, the rifle must be a minimum of 30 inches in the collapsed position. The 30 inch limit is California. Federal law I think is 26 inches. I'm not sure but it's less than California law. |
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Posted: 1/1/2002 8:56:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Federal Law is:
Rifle: 16" Barrel/26" Overall Shotgun: 18" Barrel/28" Overall |
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Posted: 1/1/2002 9:13:23 PM EDT
[#32]
What is the overall length of a pre-ban post-ban Bushmaster M4 16" barrel w/ collapsible stock? I can't find that information anywhere. Is it over 30" overall?
George |
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Posted: 1/1/2002 11:32:28 PM EDT
[#33]
M4 is 29.8" to 33" with the collapsible stock. Put a rubber pad on the but of the stock and that will give you the extra 1" you need to be legal.
BTW CMS, how hard is it to load the FAB10 - do you hold it in one had while loading, set it down or what? can you burn your self while loading it if you are not carfull? I know the strip clips make it easear to load, it's just the hole braking it down to load looks weard... - Dustin |
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Posted: 1/3/2002 11:08:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Now how about one in .308, Go-Go- Gadgets
"AR-10" |
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Posted: 1/4/2002 7:45:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Going down to a store in Azusa that says he has a few of these. Hopefully I'll be able to see one. :) I'm somewhat excited here. :)
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Posted: 1/4/2002 10:39:05 PM EDT
[#36]
I suck at photography.
I took possession of my FAB-10 lower yesterday afternoon. My wife was out and I could not find her camera so I tried to use a disposable camera to take the pictures that I promised to post. I found out that you can't take really closeup photos with a disposable (at least I can't). They suck. But I might as well try to salvage some of them. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fleft%2520side%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fright%2520side%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Ftop%2520view%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fmag%2520well%2Ejpg[/img] The sealed mag well. Solid forged aluminum. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Flower%2520comparison%2Ejpg[/img] Comparison of FAB-10(middle) to a Colt and an ASA. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2FA3%2Ejpg[/img] Probably the way I'll use mine. You can't see it but there is an evil flash hider on the muzzle. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2FM4gery%2Ejpg[/img] Sorry, couldn't resist. 16" RRA LEGP. This is a fixed stock, but I think a collapsible will make the legal length minimum (30" in CA). As pictured the carbine is 35" OAL and <24" from muzzle to the back of the lower receiver. Anyone know how short a fully closed stock is? Tonight I used a real camera to take a series of pictures. I WILL post them ASAP (tomorrow, I hope). I promise that the next pictures will be much better, even if I have to go out and buy a digital camera to do it. |
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Posted: 1/5/2002 12:38:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Very nice. How does it break down? Any hope you can post a picture of the DOJ letter? :) Thanks.
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Posted: 1/5/2002 12:53:40 AM EDT
[#38]
I might as well give my impressions so far.
I tried the FAB-10 lower with three different uppers. A Colt 20" HBAR flat top blue label pre-ban. A Bushmaster 16" HBAR post ban. And the RRA LEGP. I also used two different buttstocks. A Colt A2 and the RRA fixed collapsible stock. I used snap caps to check function and feeding. One thing I really like about this lower is that the safety spring/detent and the rear takedown pin spring/detent are self contained, held into the lower with hex screws recessed into the forging. The rear takedown pin was very difficult to operate. I corrected the problem by slightly deburring the detent. The front pivot pin ears are tight. The Colt fit with little difficulty, the Bushmaster was a bit tight but the RRA was extremely tight. However, once pinned all of the uppers pivoted well. No removal of material was required. While stripper clips are used to load the mag, a standard guide will not work. Each lower comes with a stripper clip guide that is modified to attach to the mag and lower to enable rapid loading. There is no bolt hold open device. And a steel mag (Pro Mag) is used as the fixed magazine. It functioned without any problems. I e-mailed the manufacturer about my concerns and he replied that he would back his product fully and correct any problems that may arise. However, I do not expect to find much in the way of problems. Overall fit and finish is very good. The lower seems to be a very well built and thought out project. More to follow. I need to go shootin'. |
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Posted: 1/5/2002 10:27:17 AM EDT
[#39]
You can't see it but there is an evil flash hider on the muzzle. Where's the bayo lug? Thanks for posting the pics. Looks like a winner, or at least as close as those in PRK can come to winning. I like the flag on the passenger side! |
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Posted: 1/5/2002 8:54:07 PM EDT
[#40]
I still suck at photography, but they are slightly better.
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fleft%25202%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fright%25202%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fmagwell2%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Ftop2%2Ejpg[/img] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fcomp1%2D2%2Ejpg[/img] Colt on the left, FAB10 in the middle, ASA on the right. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Fsafetydetent2%2Ejpg[/img] Safety detent/spring is held in by a recessed hex screw. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Ftakedowndeppression2%2Ejpg[/img] Receiver is machined around rear takedown pin to aid in opening. I also plan on getting an extended take down pin from Watsons Weapons to make it even easier. [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/operatorerror%2Ftakedowndetent%25202%2Ejpg[/img] The rear take down detent/spring are held in by a recessed hex screw. |
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Posted: 1/5/2002 10:21:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Looks nice. How is the mag held in? It almost looks like a set screw thru the boss where the mag release would be is all that is needed. Looks simple to take out for repairs.
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Posted: 2/12/2002 10:37:26 AM EDT
[#42]
Has anyone else recently purchased a Fab-10? My co-worker just got one and he said the barrel alignment on his is slightly canted to on direction because the pin holes wheren't aligned very well. Also, the upper receiver's paint job doesn't seem to be very durable.
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Posted: 2/12/2002 2:35:03 PM EDT
[#43]
None of the problems you listed have anything to do with the lower. If your friend bought a complete rifle, it was built by someone, with whatever parts. GoGoGadgets sells only the lower.
-Troy |
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Posted: 2/12/2002 6:36:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Well the upper paint has nothing to do with the lower, but canting of the upper can be caused by poor, off-axis drilling of the pivot and takedown holes.
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Posted: 2/16/2002 8:55:51 AM EDT
[#45]
What can, and you cannot put on a FAB10?
According to the DOJ I can put what ever I want on it all at the same time So the Department of Justice said slap what ever you want on there and I am working on getting that in writing, while the BATF said you should only have one more accessory on there. So how has more say here? And if the DOJ gives me a letter saying it’s ok to put a Flash Suppressor, bayonet lug, collapsible stock and a pistol grip on this weapon am I ok? |
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Posted: 2/16/2002 10:52:14 AM EDT
[#46]
Sulaco: Your list for the ATF features is incorrect. If the rifle has a detachable magazine, then it can only have one of those features. If it does not have a detachable magazine, it can have all 5.
Kharn |
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Posted: 2/16/2002 6:11:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Ok I’ll give them a call on Tuesday to check it out… this is what I have in writing right now, have a look at it and let me know what you think…
// this excludes the fab10, so you can put what ever you want on it 18 U. S. C. 921( a)( 30) [url]www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/921.html[/url] Maybe I was too tired when I did the original post, because I can’t seem to fine that link again [;)] Either way I won’t have money for the upper and stock for about a month or so, so plenty of time to work this out. The only part that bothers me about doing a 100% preban build is that little section on the [url]www.gogogadgets.net[/url] website that reads… “Those states that follow BATF regulations on assault weapons can have 2 of the following characteristics with this receiver and not fail under assault rifle regulations: 1) folding stock… 2) pistol grip… 3) bayonet mount… 4) flash suppressor…” |
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Posted: 2/17/2002 12:18:28 PM EDT
[#48]
Don't rely on the GoGoGadgets webpage for legal info; it's wrong in several places. The guy is an engine builder and AR15 shooter, not a lawyer, and this stuff is fairly new to him. But a reading of the actual law will confirm that a semi-auto rifle that does not accept detachable magazines is NOT an AW, and is therefore not bound by the features restrictions on AWs.
-Troy |
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Posted: 3/28/2002 11:17:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for all the great discussion about FAB10
We are a Southern California gun shop that has sold some of these receivers to very enthusiastic customers. Everyone liked the quality. Please see our photos and details at our web site: www.redstarmuseum.com/fab10.shtml For the month of April, we want to offer the FAB10 to AR15.com members a $50 discount off the retail price. Thanks, lorenzo Red Star Military Museum & Sales |
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Posted: 3/29/2002 11:29:31 AM EDT
[#50]
I test fired my FAB-10 on Sunday at the Webshooters event at the Angele's Range with a Bushmaster M4 A3 kit and it performed flawlessly.
I believe I got off around 100rds without any jams or misfeeds. The lower receiver fit is very tight but solved the problem by polishing the rear take down pin and the holes little bit. The only problem I have is reloading, which can be awkward at first but I know that going in due to the nature of the receiver. |
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