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Posted: 10/2/2007 4:58:25 AM EDT
[#1]
No Student of Liberty,
I didn't know all of that stuff, and that is why I posted my question here. It would have been stupid not to ask. I have never traveled on a plane with my rifle ( for hunting or other purposes). I know people who have ( for hunting etc.) , and figured it would be fine as long as it was checked and declared. I have never transported a firearm across any other state lines other than the states adjacent to Arkansas and needed some input. Since it was a gun part ( I know I know, still "the" firearm technically) , I wasn't sure of the technicality of it. I buy rifles privately and FFL in Tulsa,Oklahoma all the time and bring them right back here. I didn't know ( other than the commercial airliner) if the rules would be much different. So I asked. Thanks ALL for so much helpful information. It really opened my eyes. The receiver was originally purchased in Arkansas and was moved with the family to FL 2 years ago. The way I see it, I would just be "bringing it back". You can bring a gun back after a hunting trip? Right? But I have one more question. I have a boss who just got back from Bear hunting in Alaska. How do they get away with transporting firearms across other state lines to hunt? I think it's going cable locked in my luggage and declared. I'm going to check with American Eagle today and see what they say, and suggest. I never knew this would be so complicated. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:08:29 AM EDT
[#2]
There is no federal law against transporting Non-NFA firearms accross state lines. There may be local and state laws, but from what I have seen Alaska is pretty good about pro-gun laws. I.E. here I can drive back and forth beween Indiana and Kentucky all day long with my rifles in the car.  UtahShotgunner I think you are missing the "resident" portion of the GCA. Suffice to say that the transfer that JMP is talking about is illegal under the GCA. He needs to have his family member SHIP the lower to a FFL in JMP's home state and JMP needs to take possession of the lower from the FFL after completing the required paperwork. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:10:25 AM EDT
[#3]
Part 2 of this is:
What about barrelled actions? (EDIT: Sorry, meant barreled uppers) These truly are parts even though they look " evil" . I'm going to check with the airline. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:13:43 AM EDT
[#4]
JMP,
Check TSA regs, but I don't think the cable lock meets the rules. You will need a TSA approved lockable case. I am going on a hunting trip this Thursday. I am taking my shotgun for the hunt, my AR for afternoon fun shoot. These two guns will fly with me on the airplane. Upon arrival I will take possession of another shotgun which I will be mailing home. There are many regulations concerning the transport of firearms. GCA '68 is NOT the only pertinent one. There are specific laws to the benefit of hunters/shooters. Not to long ago traveling through a state with a gun that was illegal in that state could you put you afoul of local authorities. The Fed's took care of that. If it is legal where you started and legal where you are ending, you can legally transport it through any other state. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:15:04 AM EDT
[#5]
If by "action" you mean "receiver", then it is considered a firearm (I.E. a Remington 700). If you mean a barreled upper (AR15) then it is not considered a firearm. HOWEVER to prevent missing your flight and arguing with an underpaid, undertrained TSA official I would highly suggest that for the purpose of air travel you treat any firearm parts as a functioning firearm. For the purpose of shipping parts is parts. It dosent matter if they are engine parts or gun parts as long as they are not the "controlled" portion of the firearm. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:16:21 AM EDT
[#6]
As long as you don't even stop for gas. If you don't believe me, try it and see. I prefer not to play in the gray area (or the black) because I can buy LOTS of guns for the cost of ONE legal defense for a gray area infraction.
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:23:45 AM EDT
[#7]
I agree, not worth the trouble. He also has a barreled upper to send with me as well. I am calling the Airlines right now. I have a lockable pistol case that is exactly the right size for a lower. The upper will have to go UPS I think. BTW, I think this is going to complete my "sub-$400" AR build. Just some small accessories to take care of. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:34:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Just drive and be done with it...
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:46:51 AM EDT
[#9]
Tried it once.
I have back injuries from a skydiving accident that still haunt me (getting better though). I can't sit in a car seat for that long (20 hrs) without good drugs afterwardsht American Eagle just told me... Interstate Legalities aside: I can transport it in a locked case declared with magazine removed and all ammunition in original factory label box. Must be declared. Sign a sheet saying it is what I say it is. Stand there with the TSA guy who looks it over to make sure I followed the rules. Then when I get to the destination, the gun will be available at the security office at the destination, not on the luggage check belt. This doesn't sound so bad. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:47:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Whatever part of the gun that carries the serial number is ALWAYS a gun. It doesn't matter how many parts you take apart, the piece with the s/n is ALWAYS a gun. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:51:19 AM EDT
[#11]
This may be illegal under Florida law, but it is NOT illegal under Federal law. I attend a gunshow (Beinfeld) in Las Vegas every year. Thousands of people from all over the country attend every year. Thousands of long guns are sold at this venue to buyers from all over the country and then they drive/fly them home. All done perfectly LEGALLY! I don't know if that part of GCA '68 has subsequently been changed or if the courts interpreted it differently, but your take on it is incorrect. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:54:26 AM EDT
[#12]
I travel with guns in my vehicle all over the west. I fly occassionally to destinations all over the country with firearms. Playing it safe is a good idea, but being paranoid is not needed. And believe me, I am generally cynical and paranoid.....
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Posted: 10/2/2007 5:58:11 AM EDT
[#13]
When I have flown with guns they have always come out on the belt with the other luggage. Once you have declared it the fireamrs tag is put INSIDE the case and it is illegal for the airline to put any markings on the exterior declaring that it is a gun. How would the baggage handler at the arriving airport have any idea which bag/case to pull to give it to the security office? I would also suggest putting the ammunition in a different bag. I don't believe that is required anymore but some airlines still require it. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:03:53 AM EDT
[#14]
It might not sound bad now but wait until the TSA agent shouts " WE HAVE A GUN " to her boss across the counter. Her boss called the cops over and it went down hill from there.  Wasted 20 minutes of my time and I dislike being made to feel I was doing something wrong.Ship it to yourself. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:05:03 AM EDT
[#15]
Incorrect. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:06:56 AM EDT
[#16]
When traveling to a shooit, I often ship the guns prior to a friend of family members home. Use a box with your name & address as the shipping address and return address. I also put a note on the box that says "To be opened by addressee ONLY." |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:08:57 AM EDT
[#17]
Well, the American Eagle rep never said anything about putting it in my luggage. they said locked gun case, and declared. I am thinking that it's going to be pretty easy. Worst case scenario, I just have to hand it back to my uncle who will follow me in to the check-in counter. He can drive it back up to me at Christmas . I am leaving tomorrow. We'll see what happens. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:09:38 AM EDT
[#18]
As this thread stretches on, I think it is important to make one very important point.
All I have posted concerns a sale between private parties. If either person holds an FFL, the laws change dramatically! |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:11:42 AM EDT
[#19]
It is easy. Not withstanding all the hot air flying around. Let us know what happens. You'll have a new lower to build is my guess.... |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:43:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Wrong, since you aren't the current owner. The way you see it doesn't matter. The way the law is written and the way the ATF sees it is what matters. I have already posted the way the law is written (GCA of 1968). Now I will post the way the ATF sees it:
www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2 Assuming that your family member is not an FFL, then the "licensee's" exception for purchases of long guns does not apply, and only the very clearly stated clause "A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State" applies to you. So how do you get it legally? Get an FFL involved. And the most straightforward way to do that is to transfer it through an FFL in your state of Arkansas:
www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3 You can choose to do whatever you want, and you probably won't get caught even if you do end up breaking the law either intentionally or unintentionally, but at least make sure you know what you are doing and the risks involved. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 6:51:49 AM EDT
[#21]
No FFL. He's just my uncle( in law) Not trying to cause any more confusion... but how would anyone know that I didn't take that with me on the flight down there if they weren't allowed to mark it externally? Not looking to skirt the law. I want this all done as legally as is possible ( practical). But if the lower is being "given" to me. No paperwork. Who is to say that he didn't give it to me in Arkansas, i flew down with it, and was flying back home with it ? |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 7:02:25 AM EDT
[#22]
You aren't looking to skirt the law? What you have described is exactly "looking to skirt the law". Or, more bluntly, looking to deliberately break the law. Do what you will. As I said, it is unlikely you will be caught. But I will not be a party to what you are attempting by telling you that it is okay, because it is not. I have posted the law, and I have posted the ATF's interpretation of the law. Beyond that, there isn't much else I can add. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 7:09:40 AM EDT
[#23]
American Airlines states that no gun parts can be brought onboard in carry on baggage.
They even took my bullet key chain. Check it, declare it and fly. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 7:17:49 AM EDT
[#24]
Moderators - There is a strong difference of opinion on this thread. Could it be moved to the Legal Forum to get more/better imput?
Thanks. |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 7:21:08 AM EDT
[#25]
GCA '68 keeps getting quoted, but like so many laws in this country, gun control laws are not stagnant.
What about McClure-Vollmer (sp?) otherwise known as GCA '86. The Brady Law altered GCA '68 and the way it was implemented. It is my contention that JMP can take possession in a private transfer in Florida and then ship or fly it home without violating any laws. Can someone else jump in and help us out on this? |
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Posted: 10/2/2007 7:24:42 AM EDT
[#26]
GCA '68 keeps getting quoted, but like so many laws in this country, gun control laws are not stagnant.
What about McClure-Vollmer (sp?) otherwise known as GCA '86. The Brady Law altered GCA '68 and the way it was implemented. It is my contention that JMP can take possession in a private transfer in Florida and then ship or fly it home without violating any laws. Can someone else jump in and help us out on this? |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 3:33:02 PM EDT
[#27]
I'd throw it in a lockable bag, and hope they don't lose my luggage from the cargo pit.
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Posted: 10/1/2007 3:35:11 PM EDT
[#28]
You're going to have to declare it in your checked baggage. If it's cable-locked to the suitcase I guess they could just steal the whole thing.
I wouldn't even attempt the hassle of trying to carry the thing on board. You'll be known as the guy who tried to smuggle a deadly "assault rifle" on board an airplane when you get to prison if you do. Airport "security" is such a bloody mess I really wouldn't even bother asking, just check it in and declare it. I flew from Rome to New York once, before 911, and thought their security measures were pretty cool. A young guy, obviously packing, approached me and asked me the usual questions about my bags and stuff. He made solid eye contact and was reading me pretty well. After the interview I kind of laughed and mentioned that I sure felt better about boarding the plane if he was going to question everyone that way. He said he was indeed going to, and his butt was on board for the trip as well. It was no hassle at all, well, except for the drunk jerk who said he had a bomb in his underwear. He was dragged out of line and given the official business. There was no joking with that bunch. J. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 3:36:49 PM EDT
[#29]
It is NOT just a chunk of aluminum.
It IS a firearm by law and by definition. You must follow applicable laws while transporting it. That means declaring it. If you don't declare and they find it, I hope your jail cell has an internet connection so you can tell us about the outcome. Don't be dumb. BTW - It is perfectly legal to ship a gun to yourself. USPS handles long guns which a AR receiver 'is', so just mail the thing to yourself from FL. No one else may open the package when it arrives at your home to remain legal. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 3:47:03 PM EDT
[#30]
I think we have a winner. Just mail it to your home address while on your way to the airport. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 4:33:44 PM EDT
[#31]
I was thinking the same thing about my Kel-tec P32 but decided otherwise. I believe that the law for air travel forbids ammunition and gun "parts" except in declared checked baggage.
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 4:33:48 PM EDT
[#32]
well technically it needs to be sent to a FFL and have paper work done on it. or have the paper work done in FL. it become an interstate tranfer of you are not a FL resident ps i say mail it home |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 4:36:28 PM EDT
[#33]
USPS allows for it to be mailed.
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Posted: 10/1/2007 4:52:18 PM EDT
[#34]
UPS it to yourself.
It will save you all kinds of hassels. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:01:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Direct link to these FAQ's at the ATF Website
(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back] A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] (B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back] A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] (B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back] A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)] |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:07:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Family=gift (FL is not CA)
Put the lower receiver in a small hardside pistol case and lock it. Lock your bag with a TSA tamper-evident lock. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:09:56 PM EDT
[#37]
If it's "for cheap", and you are not both residents of the same state it will need to go through an FFL in your home state.
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:24:24 PM EDT
[#38]
i just recently came back from vacation and bought a stripped lower receiver, and put it in a lock box and then in my check baggage, one because it says any parts of guns need to be locked up, and 2 my dad does the x-ray machines at the airports and thats one of the things they were told to look for. so put it in a lock box and check it in your luggage, no carry-on. also be sure to declare it, as it is considered a firearm.
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:27:25 PM EDT
[#39]
just ship USPS Priority mail...
it will be there in two days... and cost about $7 with delivery confirmation... |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:41:18 PM EDT
[#40]
That's the correct answer. Assuming that JMP is a resident of Arkansas and his family member is a resident of Florida, then this is an interstate transfer and it needs to go through an FFL. It doesn't matter if they are family members or if it is a gift, it is still an interstate transfer:
The Gun Control Act of 1968 The only way they can lawfully do this by themselves is if JMP or his family member is an FFL, and that does not appear to be the case. JMP, get this done through an FFL and let them handle the shipping. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:58:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Wrong. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 5:59:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Wrong. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:04:23 PM EDT
[#43]
No, you are wrong. A individual (non FFL) cannot leave his home state to purchase any firearm from a person living in a another state if that person in the other state doesn't have an FFL. A face to face interstate deal can only be done if one party has an FFL for long guns. A face to face interstate deal can only be done if both parties have an FFL if the firearm is a handgun. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:08:09 PM EDT
[#44]
+1 on that; too much hassle with the TSA "Wee-Todds". |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:11:21 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:13:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Could you explain why you believe it is wrong? I included a link to the Gun Control Act of 1968 in my post, and highlighted the relevant portions. If you believe the GCA of 1968 does not apply or that my reading of it is incorrect, it would be helpful to point out why rather than simply posting a rather useless one-word reply of "wrong". |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:46:05 PM EDT
[#47]
If both parties are in Florida doing a face to face sale, the sale is INTRA-state. The new owner is now in possession and can ship or transport the long gun back to their own state. This is for private parties only. If either party is an FFL, the rules are different. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:48:43 PM EDT
[#48]
The rules directly contradict what you are claiming:
The Gun Control Act of 1968 |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:51:34 PM EDT
[#49]
See the post above. This same misperception is posted on gun BBS's all over the internet. I can not quote pertinent law as I am not an attorney. A friend who is an attorney and FFL is my source. If you need to be convinced, post a question in the legal forum on this site. EDIT: I see you have posted a highlighted quote above. It doesn't change my mind as that section is outdated. I would ask my friend for details but he is currently bird hunting in the Sandhills. I will see him later this week when I visit his home to hunt grouse. |
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Posted: 10/1/2007 6:54:58 PM EDT
[#50]
Seems cut and dry to me. The way I read it, the two unlicensed individuals need to be residents of the same state to transfer the firearm face to face.
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