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Posted: 9/21/2001 10:27:29 PM EDT
[#1]
A corp doesn't need fingerprints, photos or CLEO signoff. Still has to be legal in the state where the NFA item will be bought/stored.
The NFA item still has to be transferrable (unless the corp has an FFL/SOT), and still requires a $200 tax. |
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Posted: 9/23/2001 11:12:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: A corp doesn't need fingerprints, photos or CLEO signoff. Still has to be legal in the state where the NFA item will be bought/stored. The NFA item still has to be transferrable (unless the corp has an FFL/SOT), and still requires a $200 tax. |
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Posted: 9/23/2001 1:31:19 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm dead certain they'll still do an investigation on the corporation, and at least poke around in the background of principals or officers of the corporation.
Any officer, or designated employee of the corporation may have charge of the NFA item, provided they are not a prohibited person, and if just an employee, that permission is recorded in writing somehow - as in a resolution at a board meeting (in the minutes). I believe you can also send information to your responsible agent at the NFA branch, designating the employee to be a 'trusted employee' who is authorized to handle the NFA items without your direct supervision - as in the case of having someone take your machineguns to a shoot to do rentals if an officer or designated employee couldn't be there. Since I'm not a corp, and don't have any employees, I haven't had to fiddle around with this yet. |
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Posted: 9/23/2001 3:27:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Thank you Circuits, I will look into this more when I get to PA.
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Posted: 9/25/2001 9:29:12 AM EDT
[#5]
1- Is a corporation good in another state.
ie if i incoporate in fl buy some toys then move to TX do I have to reincorporate and transfer them? 2- Does the transfer go quicker to a corporation than to an indvidual? 3- If you dissolve the corporationa and transfer it to yourself can you sell it for the same price you paid and avoid taxes? |
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Posted: 9/25/2001 11:04:19 AM EDT
[#6]
1. Your corp would have to register in the new state, usually with the state's dept. of state, in order to have a physical and legal presence there. This would only apply for a permanent move, not for temporary transport to attend a match, etc.
2. I'm not sure, but would expect it to take rouhgly the same amount of time. 3. You can avoid gains/income taxes that way, but still have to pay the $200 transfer tax, and need CLEO signoff, prints and pics on a new Form 4 registration to transfer the NFA item from the corp to yourself. Of course, you can legally hold the NFA item as the corp, and still play with it while awaiting the transfer. Don't dissolve the corp without transferring anything you want to yourself, personally, beforehand. |
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Posted: 9/29/2001 5:52:02 PM EDT
[#7]
intersting... [>:/]
can a corporation also own title I firearms. by that i means reg every day rifles and handguns..? [:\] . if so does that background check still aplly... |
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Posted: 9/29/2001 8:37:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Yes, a corporation can own Title I firearms. The purchaser, or employee who picks 'em up, has to undergo the standard NICS check, to the best of my knowledge. NICS check won't apply if the corp is something like a private prison company, which is considered in the state of sale to be a 'law enforcement agency'.
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Posted: 9/29/2001 8:43:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Here's a question... I live in Wisconsin. Title II is all good BUT I live in an antigun area.
Can I form a corp for the sole purpose of buying a title II item? Mike |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 12:56:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Best to consult an attorney familiar with your state's corporation laws. ATF generally frowns upon a corp whose titular reason for existing is solely the acquisition of NFA firearms.
Forming a corp for protection of assets in relation to your firearms hobby might be an acceptable reason, however. |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 6:02:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Yes, a corporation can own Title I firearms. The purchaser, or employee who picks 'em up, has to undergo the standard NICS check, to the best of my knowledge. NICS check won't apply if the corp is something like a private prison company, which is considered in the state of sale to be a 'law enforcement agency'. Thank You, any idea why title I goes thru a NCIS check but not a III, or am i mistaken on that one? [peep] |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 11:14:06 AM EDT
[#12]
Title II is never required to go through a NICS check, because it's already had an FBI background check. The reverse of the 4473 (yellow form) has a checkbox where no NICS check is required because only NFA firearms were involved in the transaction.
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Posted: 9/30/2001 11:38:30 AM EDT
[#13]
corporate transfers are simple
Any corp can purchase assetts for any reason there is no back ground check on a corp., other than calling the state dept. in the state the corp resides in to verify if that corp is registered with the state. all you need is a photo copy of a certificat of incorporation(no articles or any other stuff) and a corporate officers signature on the back of each form sent to atf the transfers are much faster than a regular individual transfer(no fbi finger print check) any person the corp designates may posess the weapon(as long as they are not prohibited by law otherwise"fellon, etc) we do tons of corporate transfers in tulsa county okla., the sheriff is a jerk, and so is the police chief thaks don smith 405-414-0094 |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 12:29:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Let me get this straight. If a PRK resident or two were to form a Nevada, Arizona, or other gun friendly state corporation for the purposes of, say, holding real estate there or some other legitimate reason, that corporation could purchase NFA or AW weapons for corporate use in the state of incorporation? You can see where I'm going with this, since a non FFL resident of one state cannot drive to another state to make a direct purchase without first becoming a resident of that state. Of course, the corporate weapons could not be taken back to the PRK, if that's where the corporation's officers reside! Does this reasoning have possibilities??? Of course I'm talking only about corporate use by officers and/or employee's who haven't been disqualified from firearm ownership.
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Posted: 9/30/2001 12:40:13 PM EDT
[#15]
yes
lots of people who owne property in nevada that live in cali owne mg's you can legally keep them stored in a safe deposit box in a bank in the mg friendly stat you can also take them to mg friendly states for shooting(knob creek) by sending in a 5320 it's so simple, most people just don't realize i personally have a customer who ownes lives in cali, and okla, ownes corps in both states, owneslots of mg's here in okla. don smith 405-414-0094 |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 2:33:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks Don - sounds like something to think about. There have been threads dealing with people looking for ways to buy and hold AW's out of the PRK; that is, after it became too late to purchase and register one in state. The answer always seemed to be no way Jose, unless you first became a resident of a gun friendly state. I suppose this would only work with a corporate mailing address in the NFA/AW friendly state. I've heard of incorporating lawyer's supplying their offices for that purpose.
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Posted: 9/30/2001 3:05:36 PM EDT
[#17]
Here is an intersting question. Who could use the NFA gun ? I mean does the person have to be able to own an NFA gun themselves. I.E. Be 21. Or does the person only have to meet the requirements of the GCA. I.E. be 18. For example, if a few people were to form a corporation and the CEO be over 21 and the rest be over 18. Then they build a shooting range and acquire a few NFA guns. Can the rest use the guns on the corporate range even though they can't own the guns themselves. Or does the CEO who is over 21 have to be present ? I know I can rent guns at a range and be 18 even though I'd have to be 21 to own.
P.S. I'm 19. |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 6:09:16 PM EDT
[#18]
now on a lighter side..
if the NFA tax was meant as a revenue generating measure. doesnt the govt realized more money would be raised if they just cashed my $200.00 transfer fee check and "trust me" [;)] that I was not a wanted felon. this way they wouldnt have to spend cash on runing my background.. and also the dealers would make more sells meaning yet another way for the govt to take cash.. I mean collect taxes [BD] |
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Posted: 9/30/2001 6:46:29 PM EDT
[#19]
What are the cites for this exception?
My question is, can an LLC set up to hold property for an estate trust own class threes, and avoid all the LEO crap? |
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Posted: 10/1/2001 12:33:05 AM EDT
[#20]
The citation is that the back of the 4473 contains a checkbox, excepting the requirement for a NICS check, when only NFA firearms were involved.
The actual law which allows this checkbox is in the Gun Control Act of 1968, as modified, on the ATF website in their FAQ (download qa.pdf). |
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Posted: 10/1/2001 12:06:44 PM EDT
[#21]
any corporation may legally purchase machine guns, silencers, etc, as long as they don't violate a state law(ie live in ca,ny,etc)
probably 1/3 of my customers are corporate lots of doc's use PLC's most are llc's if your corp can buy a computer, or a chair, they can buy a mg we do it all of the time don smith |
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Posted: 10/1/2001 5:22:58 PM EDT
[#22]
BTT
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Posted: 10/3/2001 4:42:35 PM EDT
[#23]
I have been researching this myself. If the company, in my case an LLC, owns the guns, then the offices, operations and books appear to be wide open to the ATF.
At the time of selling the company you have to deal with transferring those guns or buy them yourself. If someone gets shot with those guns, you know the family of the "victims" will sue the corp. in civil court for wrongful death. Corporations are easy to attack in court. Check this site out. www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/index.html |
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Posted: 10/3/2001 7:18:34 PM EDT
[#24]
And that's the downside. Corporations don't have the kinds of "individual rights" under the law that normal people do.
Like anything else, it's a trade-off. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/8/2001 6:00:44 PM EDT
[#25]
having a corp own the mg's is no different than
an idividual owning them if they can sue the individual( which i'm sure they will do), they can sue the corp) the only downside to owning the corp weapons is that if you disolve the corp, the guns must be transfered to an idnividual,c3,c2,or another corp. also the mg's are corp assets would you wrather have the dead persons family sue you, or your corp. how many corp owne machine guns have been used in self defense, and how many corps were sued for that? i bet you can''t name too many it's just an easy way around a jerk LE who won't sign paperwork most corps have more insurance than individuals, so it's probably a little safer worst case you pay the tax twice(i'm sure the gun has gone up more than 200 in the mean time) out of several hundred corp transfers, i've never had a corp customer sued for shooting someone with his machine gun don smith c2 okla 405-414-0094 |
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Posted: 10/9/2001 3:55:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Where does the mg have to be kept if owned by a corp? Does it have to be stored at the same address the corp. resides at?
If an individual is inc. and lists his home address as the corp. address, than that issue is covered? If it is an issue? Where do LE's keep their mg's if it is owned by the department and not the individual officer? If an officer had to deploy quickly, then he would want it at his home? I don't own guns through my primary LLC simply because I have staff and their families who depend on the company for an income. I would not want to put the company at risk for that reason. I don't worry about being sued, it happens and sometmes it can be fun, but you have to put the staff first. |
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Posted: 10/19/2001 7:31:06 PM EDT
[#27]
i want to see this one come back to the top...
seems interesting |
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Posted: 10/19/2001 7:48:55 PM EDT
[#28]
The corporation has to have a responsible individual like one of the VP's, etc. who can pass a background check for the purposes of the ATF in order to get these weapons. They also have to show a need like movie star bodyguard protection or armed security for banks, or some sort of research and development, etc.
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Posted: 10/20/2001 8:11:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Negative: Corps can purchase mg's for the same reasons individuals can (usually collection/investment, recreation).
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Posted: 10/20/2001 11:02:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Here's what ATF says: [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter65.txt[/url]
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Posted: 10/21/2001 7:36:49 PM EDT
[#31]
BTT
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Posted: 10/21/2001 7:49:14 PM EDT
[#32]
this is all interesting but...
WHY? how does this help the average person? does it make any difference to me? another question, kinda along the same note... Why do people incorporate and what are the downsides of it? |
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Posted: 10/21/2001 8:13:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Interesting. What happens if you live in a non class 3 state and have a company there. Can the company still own the NFA item or not? I am particularly interested in Illinois. Any input or direction would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance, |
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Posted: 10/21/2001 8:44:09 PM EDT
[#34]
Corporations can buy NFA stuff without a CLEO signoff, and the approvals typically go faster.
A corp can't have a weapon in a state that doesn't allow it, but a corp can have multiple physical offices, and can buy/keep the NFA stuff in a state where it's legal. EQP: the corp can own the weapon, but not keep it in IL, unless the corp is licensed as a SOT (Class 1, 2 or 3) in IL. |
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Posted: 10/22/2001 7:31:37 AM EDT
[#35]
The more I read this thread, the more I lean towards buying some NFA firearms through my company. Donsmith and Circuits make some good points.
SkaerE--since I already own an LLC, have insurance, attorneys and CPA's and do business in multiple states, it looks like I can use my corp. shell to make ATF transfers move quicker and without local LE approval. Which in my case means less paper work and my time saved. Probably can write part of it off too? I can own SB Rifles in Indiana, but not SB shotguns. So I buy the SB shotgun I want and keep it in Virginia, where I have another office. Assuming you are not participating in any illegal activities, you incorporate to protect yourself and your personal assets in the event your business fails financially or you are sued professionally. |
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Posted: 10/22/2001 7:43:15 AM EDT
[#36]
I like mthe idea, but I am only minutes from the state line and my local range isn't NFA friendly. So, I have to cross the state line to shoot. That could be an issue. Is there any way to get a semi-permanent permission to take the gun into a specific state.
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Posted: 10/22/2001 10:52:08 AM EDT
[#37]
File a 5320.20 for the entire year - you can make multiple trips on a single form on different dates, during the period the form covers.
Remember when applying that a year runs from, say, May 1 to April 30 - if you try to apply for November 1, 2001 to November 1, 2002, they'll kick it back for covering more than one year. |
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