User Panel
Posted: 6/7/2001 6:53:56 PM EDT
The AW is set to sunset. I believe the House would have to initiate an extension. Since the house is still in Republican hands, what if they conviently forgot to do it?
If they did, they would sure get my vote in 2002 and 2004. |
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You're assuming that the Democrats would allow an excellent oppertunity to drive the Republicans apart with a devicive issue to pass with no notice. That's pure fantasy. They will give the Republicans a full-court press in the media, and the Republicans will "compromise" to end the "debate" as quickly as possible by extending the existing provisions instead of the far worse bill that the Democrats will insist on. And that's if we're lucky. Bush won't have the political strength, nor the balls, to veto that bill.
The more likely scenario is for them to pass the extension bill in 2003, far enough away from the elections that it will be less of a campaign issue. The Republicans stand to lose no matter what they do, so they'll stick to the status quo. -Troy |
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Maybe the reps should call the re-instatement the "Child Violence Protection Act of 2004" and include a ban on abortion in it. Nothing sends liberals into a froth like restrictions on abortion. Of course you know abortion is constitutionally protected, but the right to keep and bear arms isn't.
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Geo. Bush's position on AW ban is pretty clear if you read his platform. He'll just sign on to a roll-over on the AW ban without any discusion or even a press release.
I don't care for either god damned party. More and more I'm thinking Tim McVeigh had the right political position; he just worked in out in a distorted fashion. |
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[url]www.lp.org[/url]
The Libertarian Party believes that this country should go back to observing the Constitution, as it was for the first 150 or so years of this country's existance. If you're prepared for the mental challenge, click that link above and do some reading. You probably won't agree with their positions at first; they're just too different than what you've been taught all your life. But they are simply advocating that the Constitution be followed. What gets people tripped up is when they try to apply a single Libertarian position to the current system, such as allowing unlimited immigration. Of course that won't work without several of the OTHER Constitutional changes, like banning welfare of all types, removing government from deciding how you can defend yourself, and so on. When you look at how each component fits in the overall puzzle, you start to understand the genius of the framers (particularly Jefferson), how they balance liberty and responsibility... -Troy |
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An extension bill can originate in either house. The bill might pass the Senate, but it will die in the house unless the third party people act like total morons and vote for guaranteed losers. Vote Republican, or pro gun least in 2002 and there will be no bill.
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they are simply advocating that the Constitution be followed. View Quote "We oppose...laws concerning...[o]bscenity, including "pornography", as we hold this to be an abridgment of liberty of expression." There is no "liberty of expression" in the constitution. It's a liberal invention to give protection to porn etc which the founding fathers clearly did not intend the 1st amendment to protect. "The individual's right to privacy...should not be infringed by the government." There is no right to privacy in the constitution, it is an invention of liberal courts designed to protect perverts and abortion. "we advocate a strict separation of church and State." So called "strict separation of church and state" is a far more harsh standard than that set forth in the constitution, and disrupts the role in government which the founding fathers wanted religion to have. Some of these may not exclusively refer to a position on the constitution, but clearly evidence the party's total disregard for its true meaning, and rebut the assertion they are "advocating that the Constitution be followed" |
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Quoted: they are simply advocating that the Constitution be followed. View Quote "We oppose...laws concerning...[o]bscenity, including "pornography", as we hold this to be an abridgment of liberty of expression." There is no "liberty of expression" in the constitution. It's a liberal invention to give protection to porn etc which the founding fathers clearly did not intend the 1st amendment to protect. "The individual's right to privacy...should not be infringed by the government." There is no right to privacy in the constitution, it is an invention of liberal courts designed to protect perverts and abortion. "we advocate a strict separation of church and State." So called "strict separation of church and state" is a far more harsh standard than that set forth in the constitution, and disrupts the role in government which the founding fathers wanted religion to have. Some of these may not exclusively refer to a position on the constitution, but clearly evidence the party's total disregard for its true meaning, and rebut the assertion they are "advocating that the Constitution be followed" View Quote porn falls under the ifrst amendment privacy: fourth amendment |
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porn falls under the ifrst amendment privacy: fourth amendment View Quote "Speech" is protected by the 1st amendment, not porn. Are you saying that when Madison penned this amendment he thought to himself that it would protect pornography? Surely not. "Speech" referred to [i]political speech[/i]. The 1st amendment, however, has been perverted to protect porn by liberal courts, a clear deviation from its original intent. Furthermore the 4th amendment protects us from unreasonable search and seizures, it is not a general prohibition on violating "privacy." The idea of "privacy" was an invention to to stop the regulation of contraceptives; later used as a basis to "create" another "right": abortion. Any philosophy of constitutional interpretation that allows an unelected and unaccountable justice to willy-nilly change the constitution to suit the flavor of the day is dangerous: rights can be read out as quickly as they are read in. Liberals understand this; Libertarians, so wrapped up in their own rhetoric, do not. This philosophy exists only allows one to pervert the constitution to conform to one's own political views. |
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Quoted: This philosophy exists only allows one to pervert the constitution to conform to one's own political views. View Quote Given your logic then, the 2nd was only intended to protect black powder rifles, not AR15s, not AK's, and not machine guns. And the first was only desgined to protect speech on the printing press, and not the Internet. I think your reasoning that the consititution was only written to protect that the framers thought was all right and good, is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I think they were trying to write it in such a way that it would be applicable to changes in the future, to protect future changes that they had not anticipated, not to restrict rights because some special group thinks porn is bad, or some other group thinks guns are bad. Everyone has their own beliefs of what is right and wrong, and the consititution was written to protect the different beliefs of those groups, so one group can't infringe upon the rights of another. |
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Given your logic then, the 2nd was only intended to protect black powder rifles, not AR15s, not AK's, and not machine guns. And the first was only desgined to protect speech on the printing press, and not the Internet. View Quote It's the same with arms. Arms are arms, whether new or old. The technology attached to various rights change, but the rights themselves do not. Thus there is in fact a great deal of flexibility. The point I am making is that this philosophy of constitutional interpretation changes the fundamental meaning of the right itself, and is not a mere change in recognition of the new modes and media necessarily attached to those rights. I think they were trying to write it in such a way that it would be applicable to changes in the future, to protect future changes that they had not anticipated, not to restrict rights because some special group thinks porn is bad, or some other group thinks guns are bad. View Quote Everyone has their own beliefs of what is right and wrong, and the consititution was written to protect the different beliefs of those groups, so one group can't infringe upon the rights of another. View Quote I will repeat myself so that you will remember to respond: "Any philosophy of constitutional interpretation that allows an unelected and unaccountable justice to willy-nilly change the constitution to suit the flavor of the day is dangerous: rights can be read out as quickly as they are read in." NOTE: I'm not saying this is the BEST way for the constitution to read; it's simply the way things are. No matter how much I don't like the result, or feel it should be different, the constitution will not change to support that feeling or belief simply because I feel it or believe it. |
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Avtomat,
It seems that you would be willing to impose your concept of morality on everyone. That is no different than what the gun control crowd (among many, many others) is trying to do. Note that the Bill of Rights is NOT an exclusive list of our Rights. The concept of the Founders was clearly that the government should only be involved when an individual's Rights have been violated, and THIS is the central idea that Libertarians are behind. Can you explain how porn (excluding that involving minors) infringes on your individual rights, or those of others? Or how removing government involvement from religion infringes on individual rights? Liberty means recognizing people's rights to do things that you don't like, provided that your rights aren't infringed. No one said liberty would be easy. -Troy |
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It seems that you would be willing to impose your concept of morality on everyone...Note that the Bill of Rights is NOT an exclusive list of our Rights. View Quote The concept of the Founders was clearly that the government should only be involved when an individual's Rights have been violated, and THIS is the central idea that Libertarians are behind View Quote Can you explain how porn (excluding that involving minors) infringes on your individual rights, or those of others? View Quote Can you explain...how removing government involvement from religion infringes on individual rights? View Quote Liberty means recognizing people's rights to do things that you don't like, provided that your rights aren't infringed. No one said liberty would be easy. View Quote I will again have to repeat myself: "NOTE: I'm not saying this is the BEST way for the constitution to read; it's simply the way things are. No matter how much I don't like the result, or feel it should be different, the constitution will not change to support that feeling or belief simply because I feel it or believe it." |
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Quoted: Sir, I merely state what the constitution says. View Quote You keep saying this, but you are NOT in fact stating what the Constitution says. What you seem to be doing is advocating that the Constitution must specifically list every Right to be observed or that Right doesn't exist. Note that you posted the following: "There is no "liberty of expression" in the constitution. It's a liberal invention to give protection to porn etc which the founding fathers clearly did not intend the 1st amendment to protect." "There is no right to privacy in the constitution, it is an invention of liberal courts designed to protect perverts and abortion." What you seem to be saying in these posts is that if you don't see it spelled out in black and white, then it isn't a Right. I guess you didn't read the rest of the Constitution. The Constitution is a document that delegates specific authority to the government, and clearly spells out that any powers and rights beyond what is specifically delegated to the government in the Constitution is reserved to the states and the people. How about this: you show ME where the Constitution states that the government has the power to regulate pornography or religion. I'd be very interested to read those articles. -Troy |
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Avtomat,
Amendment X (10). [i][size=3]The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[/i][/size=3] The Constitution protects porn wether or not you or I like it. So long as people do not abridge mine or anyone else's rights, and their actions/choices are not clearly prohibited by the Constitution, then those actions/choices are clearly protected by the Constitution. |
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What you seem to be doing is advocating that the Constitution must specifically list every Right to be observed or that Right doesn't exist. View Quote The Constitution is a document that delegates specific authority to the government, and clearly spells out that any powers and rights beyond what is specifically delegated to the government in the Constitution is reserved to the states and the people. View Quote I guess you didn't read the rest of the Constitution View Quote How about this: you show ME where the Constitution states that the government has the power to regulate pornography or religion. I'd be very interested to read those articles. View Quote |
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The Constitution protects porn wether or not you or I like it. So long as people do not abridge mine or anyone else's rights, and their actions/choices are not clearly prohibited by the Constitution, then those actions/choices are clearly protected by the Constitution. View Quote This entire discussion digresses from my point: Libertarians advocate a philosophy of constitutional interpretation which would allow an unelected and unaccountable judge or justice to change the constitution to suit the "feelings" and desires of contempory public opinion. Such a philosophy is dangerous: it perverts the constitution from its original intent. If a judge can easily change the constitution to embrace nonexistant rights, he can just as easily take rights out. |
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the B of R was never meant to apply to states View Quote I belive you are misinformed there my friend. The B of R was intended expressly for the states (read: people/citizens). The B of R guarantees that the federal government can not become too powerful (in theory if not practice). If it were not for the B of R the Constitution would never have been ratified. The B of R guarantees people free choice in their lives. Again, read the tenth. If people of a state want to regulate a particular aspect of something they have the right to do so so long as the regulation does not conflict with the federal Constitutional rights of EVERY citizen. |
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I belive you are misinformed there my friend. The B of R was intended expressly for the states (read: people/citizens) View Quote If it were not for the B of R the Constitution would never have been ratified View Quote The B of R guarantees people free choice in their lives. Again, read the tenth. If people of a state want to regulate a particular aspect of something they have the right to do so so long as the regulation does not conflict with the federal Constitutional rights of EVERY citizen View Quote "The powers not...prohibited by the [constitution] to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." It clearly states that whatever powers not banned from state use in the constitution are indeed powers the state has. In other words, the amendment is saying: "if the constitution does not say the state can't do it, then the state can do it." It does not state that the state can't do what the federal government can't do. The [i]RIGHTS[/i] mentioned are restrictions on federal power. This is what the term RIGHTS means. Today, we have a different understanding of the term "rights," but that definition is not that used by the B of R. How is it that the B of R contained this grandiose restriction on all state power, but it never has been mentioned, much less enforced? How is it that this was true considering the B of R was never meant to be applied to be applied to the states in the first place? At least you must conceed this in terms of the 1st amendment, which clearly states it is restricting the power of congress (not state legislatures). The B of R guarantees that the federal government can not become too powerful View Quote |
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Quoted: And by speech, the founding father's meant [i]political speech[/i]. THEY DID NOT MEAN PORN, and if you asked James Madison, he would have told you so. View Quote If that is the case (and I assure you that you are mistaken), the please refer us to ANY writings that even hint at what you believe the founders meant. And, really, what is your obsession with banning porn? It's obvious that it's a major issue with you. Just curious. -Troy |
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And, really, what is your obsession with banning porn? It's obvious that it's a major issue with you. Just curious View Quote If that is the case (and I assure you that you are mistaken), the please refer us to ANY writings that even hint at what you believe the founders meant. View Quote |
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ANYONE who honestly thinks porn is NOT protected, strongly appears to have a slanted/jaded opinion AND a PERSONAL agenda.
The true test, IMHO, of a patriotic American, is to support that which they abhor. I.E., a Black supporting the rights of the Klan OR a Jew supporting the rights of the Nazis. There is a distict diff between supporting the right, and supporting the act itself. The very basis for America, is in itself, a self destructive, oxy moron. We allow the same socialists that wolud destroy the rights of the masses (read being anti-porn) One possible remedy may be a honest, realistic OBJECTIVITY check to see the difference between an opinion and a factual situation (read 'if you asked Madison'). |
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Avtomat,
I was rereading the thread and caught something you wrote: A "right," in terms of the Bill of Rights, is a restriction on the power of government. Notice the 1st amendment: "Congress shall make no law...". It doesn't say "there is a right to freedom of speech," it says the federal government can't regulate speech. And by speech, the founding father's meant political speech. THEY DID NOT MEAN PORN, and if you asked James Madison, he would have told you so. View Quote On those sentences alone could be made an argument for the states to ban all firearms if the states wanted to. Using your argument, if the states did ban all firearms, or all political speech for that matter, then those actions would be protected under the Constitution. This is where I belive you are mistaken. I understand what you are writing, but your argument, while good in presentation, would be the basis for elimination by the states of a citizen's pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. I do understand what you write in your arguments, but I find, from my interpretations of the Constitution and other writings from the FF, that your argument goes against what the FF fought and died for; personal freedom and liberty. This might be an instance where we have to agree to disagree. |
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mtnpatriot: I glad you caught that, but you needn't worry. I am not mistaken, you just don't know the whole story (and that is understandable, very few know of this historical tid-bit). The 14th amendment to the constitution "incorporates" most parts of the B of R to apply to the states (notice it says "no state shall"). Thus, the 1st amendment, and arguably the 2nd, do indeed restrict state power. But they were never meant to when the FF wrote them (the FF, in order to keep the primacy with in the states, did not think the federal constitution should stretch to the states). So, while states can't NOW trample the "rights" in the B of R, originally the B of R held no prohibitions over this exercise of state power.
But mtnpatriot, your arguments, as to personal freedom and liberty, need not hinge on the FF or B of R. I suspect that you could effectively argue them without such. So don't hang your hat on the B of R: you don't need to. |
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Quoted: The AW is set to sunset. I believe the House would have to initiate an extension. Since the house is still in Republican hands, what if they conviently forgot to do it? If they did, they would sure get my vote in 2002 and 2004. View Quote The law sunsets prior to the 2004 elections. Whoever wins (especially in the House) in 2002 will determine whether or not the ban is extended or made permanent. If you've got a strong pro-gun candidate in your district (Dem or Repub), get out and work for that person. I don't see the extension of the ban as a done deal. Al Gore ran on gun control and lost TN and WV, two states which went to Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Bush's win was close enough that I think he knows that he can't afford to anger his core constituents. My guess is the bill will be introduced, will pass the House and Senate in different forms, and will die in conference (just like the gun-control bill after Columbine). That way both the Republicans and Democrats can use the issue to their perceived advantage. |
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I don't see the extension of the ban as a done deal. Al Gore ran on gun control and lost TN and WV, two states which went to Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Bush's win was close enough that I think he knows that he can't afford to anger his core constituents. View Quote I am not so sure. I think Bush will be looking ahead to the 2004 elections. Bush's core constituents will probably vote Republican anyway, maybe a few Libertarian. I think the Democrats will make a big deal about the extension and I'll wager you will find more anti-gun republicans then pro-gun democrats. This will tip Bush's decision. We shall see. I think he will sell us up the river. |
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10 to 1, says bush will support a ban that sets the age at 21. Look at his views. He isn't anti assault weapon. He openly says that 21 should be the legal age for anything. I will be 22 when it sunsets. Most importantly, wouldn't you rather be able to own an AR at 21 than almost nothing at anytime. 21 has wide support even among gun owners. Here is my take:
1) 21 Minimum Age for an Assault Wepaon or Handgun. 2) Complete Ban on Importing Foreign Magazines. 3) Extended Waiting Periods for Assault Rifles and possibly handguns 4) Mandatory Background Checks for Assault Rifles (even at Gun Shows.) 5) Complete Ban on Importing Foreign Parts. Possibly a new parts count for new Rifles. 6) Further requirements to purchase, such as mandatory firearms training or liscense. |
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You have to look at it realisticly the laws will only get tougher.
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