I know that some manufacturers have gone to the ATF and gotten collapsible stocks that are pinned permanently in the open position ok'd, but would one in the collapsed position also be ok as long as the overall rifle length was ok?

EDIT:  If this is not ok, then how can some manufacturers sell "tactical" short stocks that look like a normal A2 stock but short like a collapsed on??????

I would say yes, as long as it did not have the ability to extend, and criteria for rifle OAL was met for a Title-1 firearm.


Can we say "youth model", sort of like Remington with their 20ga shotgun I think it is, has a shorter stock for the younger-smaller shooter, and short stock (RRA LE Tactical) was/is intended for a fully suited LE fella to somewhat maintain a proper mounting/firing position with all the SWAT gear on.

The LAW does not say you cannot pin a stock, it just says it cannot be telescoping.  The pinning of a CAR stock being illegal is not law, it is some guy's opinion at ATF.  Have there been any court cases?  I doubt they could make it stick.

So you are telling me that bushmaster and rock river and all the other manufacterers that are selling permanently pinned stocks are illegal....doubt it.

This is all very interesting... but the fact remains that a CAR stock, even fully collapsed, is still not illegal in length... the only thing that makes it illegal is under the AW ban this stock is "telescoping".  And if it is pinned, it is not telescoping, collapsable, or folding.

So, if it is legal to pin the car buttstock on a  full length buffer tube, there is no logical reason for it to be illegal if pinned to the shorter length on a CAR buffer tube.

There are stocks that have adjustable ends, some of the high tech race gun parts.  These "telescope", but are not illegal?  Show me the logic.

What we have is some guy at ATF making up laws as he thinks it should be, to be as restrictive as possible on the "bad guns" they want to take from us.  The real purpose is a form of terrorism, to scare you out of taking your 2nd Amendment rights.  The fines (everything is 10 years/$25,000) are way out of proportion to the offenses.  And to make it even worse, ATF is a tax collection agency.  There is no tax on post ban "assault weapons".  They have no legal standing in enforcing any of the AW laws.

That was discussed extensively when the 1935 Firearms Act was being debated.  It was said that restrictions in the bill were unconstitutional.  They said no, it was OK because the NFA guns were merely being taxed, not banned.

So... "assault weapons" (that is, guns with 2 or more of the evil features) have no tax on them.  Try calling up the ATF and asking for the forms required to pay a return on a post ban assault weapon.  If there is a tax, you should be allowed to pay the tax.

I wouldn't pin it in the short length myself.  I would have a manufacturer do it and send it to ATF to have it certified and then sell the crap out of it.

Just got a letter from the ATF on this today and they said as long as it is permanent it can be in any position.So basically as long as it does not move your good to go.Just make sure it is impossible to make it move again.

What exactly is different, other than the full length buffer tube, on the post ban fixed stocks?   I would assume there would need to be something else different, otherwise, you'd still be just as easily make it into a "collapsable" stock, just one that has the full length adjustment as its shortest setting.  

Do the same mods on a shorter tube, and I don't see how they could possibly go after you as long as you meet their min OAL.  Heck, take one of the stocks they "approved" (where is it written into the law that you need their approval to make a stock, anyways?) and cut and rethread the tube and they definitely shouldn't be able to say or do anything.

Rocko

I recieved a fake telestock from Model 1 that was pinned fully extended on a short CAR reciever extension.  The stock was blind pinned with two roll pins and had some type of epoxy smeered inside around the end of the tube.  I imagine that I'm not the only one and I doubt Model 1 would ship tons of illegal stocks.  

For what its worth the telestock on my RRA LEGP is the full length reciever extension and shoots a little nicer.

Im not sure if this is any help but I think I would be willing to risk ordering a collapable stock, taking some time to decide where I like it and then blind pinning it.  

I sent a copy of the letter to VA-gunnut so he could scan it and post it so you all can interpret it for yourselves.Mailed it to him this morning.As far as being permanent I would think that if you had to destroy the stock to make it move it would be considered permanent.Thats just my thought.I know the ATF likes to play word games with this stuff.I also would probably never pin one in it's shortest position either.Makes it just to short.

OK, so as long as there are no detents in the tube and the tube extends to the end of the stock, it would seem like you'd be OK no matter what length the tube is.  A setup in the same configuration as the "approved" stocks, but with just a shorter tube isn't able to be converted into a collapsable configuration any more easily than the approved one. The key seems to start with something that wasn't a complete collapsable stock to begin with.  Of course, the fully closed and fully open positions would be the easiest.  For the mid sized positions, you'd have to figure something out for the buffer size and spring length.  Use a carbine length buffer/spring and put some sort of stop inside the mid-length cut tube where the carbine tube would typically stop.  Perhaps a bigger PITA than it is worth...

Rocko

Pinning and usage of epoxy in right places, can make it permanent, IMHO.

mark

I really want to keep this going - and I want to see what that letter says.

Assuming the pinned stock is illegal, what would/could you do to make it legal? can you buy the longer tube and use your current furniture?

The reason I am asking this is I recently bought a "post ban" pink (I know, I know)CAR stock for the wife, but it turned out to be a pinned CAR with the short buffer tube.

If someone knows where I can find a Post-Ban pink stock, let me know-PLEASE, but otherwise I need a way to make this hideous thing legal.

Tony

Pinned and epoxy so you have to destroy it to make it work! :-)  I have been told some comapnies are doing this method.

mark