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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:00:45 AM EDT
[#1]
no good excuse for it. even if the kid made
a funny move or the agent lost sight of the kids hands, there still is no good excuse for a accidental or intentional discharge of his weapon. most law abiding people do not have much experience being taken down like a felon! |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:04:49 AM EDT
[#2]
[b]If only our legal system was as brutal with criminals as our law enforcement agencies are with innocent civilians - we'd have very little crime in the streets.[/b] [;D] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:10:53 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: [b]If only our legal system was as brutal with criminals as our law enforcement agencies are with innocent civilians - we'd have very little crime in the streets.[/b] [;D] Yah, but that would be [i]dangerous[/i] for our illustrious heros. Much safer killing innocents. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:14:08 AM EDT
[#4]
I dont know who your supposed to be affraid of, the bad buys or the good guys?[bd]
Anybody want to bet the FBI agent gets off with a slap on the wrist? BKVic |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:16:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Anybody want to bet the FBI agent gets off with a slap on the wrist? BKVic No bet. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:16:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Wonder what I'd be charged with if I saw those shit heels shoot that boy and took action.
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:19:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Jeez! In most states, if a guy breaks into my home I can only shoot him if I am in "mortal" danger, even though the guy has already proven his criminal intent by breaking into my home. The FBI seems to think that a "suspicious" movement by a guy who only matches a sketchy description is grounds to blaze away. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:19:38 AM EDT
[#8]
It will get worse as a flood of new morons rush out to join the other morons in law enforcement. Can someone say " poor training".
Years of neglect going unchecked. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:23:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: It will get worse as a flood of new morons rush out to join the other morons in law enforcement. Can someone say " poor training". Years of neglect going unchecked. All part of "Minority Recruiting" drives. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:25:26 AM EDT
[#10]
FBI spokesman Barry Maddox said agency policy prevented the immediate release of the name of the agent who shot Schultz. He also declined to comment on whether the agent has been assigned to desk duty pending an investigation of the shooting. Nor have FBI officials released information about how the shooting took place. It's always left a bad taste in my mouth that the *police* are policed by the police. It's an invitation to abuse and corruption. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:33:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Sounds like the HRT just found its newest recruit...
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:34:41 AM EDT
[#12]
This sounds like a classic AD to me. Do we know for sure that this was not a accident?
Kyle |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:42:06 AM EDT
[#13]
I would have to say that this is a REALLY BAD case of a combination of firearm training and judgement. As a LEO, I know that having your finger on the trigger is the wrong thing to do, unless you are intent on taking out the target. I would love to know how old that agent was, and what his duties have been prior to this engagement. I can bet dollars to doughnuts (no pun intended) that he has not been on long. Judgement for that scenario comes from age, training, and practice. I would also like to see his FATS traing stats. I will bet he didn't do so well. Just MHO.
I'll bet if the local PD had made that stop, that kid would be working on his next badge. By the way, what does the victim being an eagle scout have to do with that story? Tears factor? |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:42:12 AM EDT
[#14]
If the agent had the gun pointed at the kids face ... and had cheek weld on the rifle how did he see the kid make a suspicious move?
Hmmm? Rifle had at least 14" of barrel, the agent probably couldn't even see the lower half of the kid's body ... makes me wonder if the "suspicious movement" was the kid raising his hands in surrender. Ryan |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:44:14 AM EDT
[#15]
All:
I have been posting/lurking here for some time and have resisted the urge to say anything inciteful, but I think I will finally break that trend. Between the no-knock, no-warrant, no-accountability, no-apology raids that include shootings/doggie abuse/unmarked police, etc. I have to ask this: Do you think that law enforcement is simply testing our tolerance for the loss of our rights? Can they REALLY be that incompetent across the board and across the nation? I am by no means a conspiracy theorist, but this is a very disturbing trend of incidents. What have we come to that law enforcement can walk up to a citizen and simply shoot them? I pray that we are missing some of the story. Please keep us posted whoever is watching this one closely. A very sad White Horse p.s. Please feel free to respond. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:45:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Still, the most important thing is that the agents all got to go home safely to their families.
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:46:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: This sounds like a classic AD to me. Do we know for sure that this was not a accident? Kyle There are NO ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGES, only Negligent Discharges. At best - 6 mo suspension, no pay, drop in grade. After a year when no one is looking, they will expunge his record, promote him, and give him backpay w/interest. It's been done many times before after the public stops looking. Here's the lastest article, I believe: [url]http://www.sunspot.net/news/custom/guns/bal-md.shoot04mar04.story?coll=bal%2Dhome%2Dheadlines[/url] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:49:13 AM EDT
[#18]
HOLY SHIT THATS SOME SHITTY SHIT!
Wow, that really sucks, I hope the agent is fried. I wonder if the FBI will try to pull some statutory rape thing at trial and make the kid into a pedophile stalking his next prey with "fully automatic assault weapons" (yeah, I know they said semi's) and that this FBI agent had a good shooting since the kid could have traumatized another 16 year old. Whoa, wait, the FBI agent did it for him in this case! I feel horrible for the guy, but equally as bad for the girl. Damn, that sucks! |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 10:50:52 AM EDT
[#19]
I'm surprised they didn't burn the car to ground, too. Oh, wait, that's the BATF...
[pyro] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:04:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Posted elsewhere:
If the news report is correct about the FBI agent's weapon being an M4, and most news reporters are hoplophobics so they are usually wrong, the M4 used by the military and police is a [URL=http://www.benelliusa.com/m4_super90/]shotgun[/URL]. And if the description of the wound is correct, the shotgun round fired was a "rifled slug". |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:17:46 AM EDT
[#21]
This is sad if it is true. I hope we find out more about what happened. I have had weapons points at me before and it can make you neavous as hell. Fournately, I was smart enough to put my hands up and not move.
I support justice in any case but it seems that several people on the linked site are ready to kill this agent without all the information. I hope they are only blowing off steam. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:33:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Where are the reports of rioting to protest this incident of police brutality? Where's Jesse Jackson?
Am I missing something? [>:/] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:38:46 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: This is sad if it is true. I hope we find out more about what happened. I have had weapons points at me before and it can make you neavous as hell. Fournately, I was smart enough to put my hands up and not move. I support justice in any case but it seems that several people on the linked site are ready to kill this agent without all the information. I hope they are only blowing off steam. If true? If what is true? And it's sad? Please. Sad. It's criminal. It's an outrage. It's true the kid is in Shock Trauma w/half his face blown off. It's true that the victim, Joseph Charles Schultz, 20, of Pasadena's Orchard Beach community, is getting operated on today. It's true he wasn't the criminal they were looking for. It's true the FBI is refusing to release any details. It's true he was cuffed on the ground like a dog for 1 hour before they determined he wasn't the guy, and finally called for medical support. It's true the FBI agents were standing at the scene laughing about the incident. It's true the FBI has seized the car and won't return it to the lawful owner. They were ORDERED out of the car. Hard to do that without removing your legally mandated safety belt, [i]isn't it?[/i] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:42:57 AM EDT
[#24]
Dang, I grew up in Pasadena and know the neighborhood like the back of my hand. The names are familiar, although i don't know these folks. J. Edgar Hoover would be rolling over in his grave.
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:43:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Where are all of our resident LEO apologists ???
[peep] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:43:52 AM EDT
[#26]
"Why Did He Shoot Me?" ....because either he's an another incompetent, poorly trained, trigger-happy bureautratic buffoon, that had an 'Accidental Discharge'and will get of with a wrist slap, (If I'm wrong about the facts, 'sorry bout that')....If he wants to shoot 'bad guys' have Gen. Tommy Franks sends his ass to the Afgan 'badlands' with the 101st, Marines and Special Ops. I gotta a feeling he'd crap his pants....
Gib187th 'Been there done that' |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 11:59:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: "Why Did He Shoot Me?" ....because either he's an another incompetent, poorly trained, trigger-happy bureautratic buffoon, that had an 'Accidental Discharge'and will get of with a wrist slap, (If I'm wrong about the facts, 'sorry bout that')....If he wants to shoot 'bad guys' have Gen. Tommy Franks sends his ass to the Afgan 'badlands' with the 101st, Marines and Special Ops. I gotta a feeling he'd crap his pants.... Gib187th 'Been there done that' Well said, sir. [:)] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 12:11:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: J. Edgar Hoover would be rolling over in his grave. Yeah--the agents left live witnesses. If there's anything Hoover didn't like, it was having the FBI's tyranny being exposed for what it is. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 12:22:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Still, the most important thing is that the agents all got to go home safely to their families. LMAO |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 12:50:09 PM EDT
[#30]
It's true he was cuffed on the ground like a dog for 1 hour before they determined he wasn't the guy, and finally called for medical support. What kind of person leaves someone lying on the ground writhing in pain with half of their face missing? I can understand making a wrong decision under stress, but intentionally and coldly leaving someone to suffer isn't human. A human doesn't do those sort of things. Those officers are animals. I once saw a local SWAT team leave a guy handcuffed and laying on the ground with blood pouring out of his nose. The guy was coughing and gagging, and sounded like he could possibly drown. He was left like that for almost 15 minutes before an officer, that wasn't involved in the raid, but lived in the same apartment complex, finally went to the guy and turned him over so he wouldn't drown in his own blood. Where do these people come from that do things like this? What kind of childhood did they have? If my own father saw me act like an animal like that, he'd put me down. What did their parents teach them?z |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 1:18:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Where are all of our resident LEO apologists ??? [peep] Yes, that is a good question indeed...[IMG]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/corky/smilies23.gif[/IMG] |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 1:44:00 PM EDT
[#32]
I have some problems with some federal methods, in particular the big news events that appear to totally violate the constitution (as well as the RR woman with baby two-er, the fire in waco, and the killings on the west side of michigan to keep the value of out buildings intact for government agency sale)
Plus, a local department is made up of some real dirtballs. That all being said, I do some work in union arbs on the side of departments. There is no master plot, they want to demote or fire these bad cops as much as you all want them gone. The problem is two fold. 1. The collective bargaining agreement will usually set forth the reasons for demotion/discharge, and it is always for serious offenses. That means the dept cannot fire unless the offense is serious and can be proven serious internally, usually at least at a clear and convincing level, and brother cops all lie no matter how big of a dirtball the guy is, so cases are just very hard to make with one or two civvie witnesses, one of whom is going to be the victim (you have to hope for a command officer to be a witness to at least some of the behavior as a practical matter). 2. Then the CBA will (95% of the time) call for arbitration. This means a person chosen both by the union and the dept will hear the case and rule on the punishment. The only people the union will choose is someone that at least splits decisions, not on the merits, but on percentages. That means at least 50% of the people fired or demoted will be returned to their old job, with the loss of 2 or three months of their back pay (read with a bonus of three months back pay) |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 1:47:11 PM EDT
[#33]
I understand the federal system is even worse, because the agency has the same code of silence mafia thing going on, and must gather evidence to charge, then there is a hearing with an impartial officer called an adminstrative law judge, who is actually not a judge but a fellow civil servant.
Then there is at least one review/appeal board to appeal to if the guy lost. Then the FBI guy gets to appeal that decision to real court if for some reason he lost. That's a lot of chances to win, even if the case is heavily against the guy. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 2:08:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Gee...could it be that our resident LEO apologist(s) are tired of arguing their point in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?
QS |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 2:42:29 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm still waiting to hear further details myself. Apologists?
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Posted: 3/4/2002 3:31:31 PM EDT
[#36]
It's true he was cuffed on the ground like a dog for 1 hour before they determined he wasn't the guy, and finally called for medical support. It's true the FBI agents were standing at the scene laughing about the incident. I reread the story, and can't find reference to the above quote. Please provide a link! If it's true, those scum need to spend the rest of their lives behind bars. This is anathema to common decency and everything this country stands for. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 3:47:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Waverunner, I was waiting for more information also. I must be an apologists since my comments didn't meet with fight4yourrights approval. I only said it was sad that this young man got shoot. Pardon me, I try to get as much information as I can before I condemn the actions of others, suggest lynching them, or calling for armed revolution .
When I read the linked post the only thing I saw was that he had been shot and that it was probably mistaken identity. I saw no mention of him being handcuffed and held for an hour without medical attention or the fact that they laughed about it. These actions are wrong. If in fact the FBI and this agent f*cked-up this young man has an outstanding civil case and it is possible criminal charges will be brought against this agent. I know at least one FBI agent has been charged with murder in the death of an informant that he had impregnated and then killed in Kentucky or West Virginia. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 3:51:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Gee...could it be that our resident LEO apologist(s) are tired of arguing their point in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? QS Or could it be that on a site where people post about their ND's, and their belief that they should pull a firearm if they were in a fist fight, and that they world is such a dangerous place that they must have a concealed firearm readily accesible to them at all times. That when a police officer fires a weapon, those same people immediatley say they world is a safe a peaceful place, there is no reason to shoot another person, and then add that they are sure facts were manipulated because all LEO's lie. It's very difficult to interject logic and reason into conversations with people that don't care about facts or reason because their hate doesn't allow them to think. Then again in some incidents there is very little to argue about, and maybe you should consider what the silence might be saying. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 4:10:04 PM EDT
[#39]
[b]"Or could it be that on a site where people post about their ND's, and their belief that they should pull a firearm if they were in a fist fight, and that they world is such a dangerous place that they must have a concealed firearm readily accesible to them at all times. That when a police officer fires a weapon, those same people immediatley say they world is a safe a peaceful place, there is no reason to shoot another person, and then add that they are sure facts were manipulated because all LEO's lie.
It's very difficult to interject logic and reason into conversations with people that don't care about facts or reason because their hate doesn't allow them to think. Then again in some incidents there is very little to argue about, and maybe you should consider what the silence might be saying. "[/b] A tad harsh, but....yup... |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 4:24:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: Gee...could it be that our resident LEO apologist(s) are tired of arguing their point in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? QS Or could it be that on a site where people post about their ND's, and their belief that they should pull a firearm if they were in a fist fight, and that they world is such a dangerous place that they must have a concealed firearm readily accesible to them at all times. That when a police officer fires a weapon, those same people immediatley say they world is a safe a peaceful place, there is no reason to shoot another person, and then add that they are sure facts were manipulated because all LEO's lie. It's very difficult to interject logic and reason into conversations with people that don't care about facts or reason because their hate doesn't allow them to think. Then again in some incidents there is very little to argue about, and maybe you should consider what the silence might be saying. I am going to take a shot at this one. The FEDs would not let the firearms in Waco be x-rayed, could it be that there were no full autos liked they claimed? They never produced one piece of evidence that showed David Koresh or anyone else in the "compound" was molesting the children, and as a matter of fact that point was left out of the trial of the suviors of that splendid piece of law enforcement fiasco. All of the defendents in the above case were aquited of all counts, and then a federal judge said the jury could not do that, and he ordered tham locked up. You can go to the Waco news paper archives and check that out. As a matter of fact just search the Waco and Dallas news papers and read all of the story, because I hate making real long posts. It is a fact that the federal government paid Randy Weaver and his family 3.2 million dollars for a wrong they said they did not commit. I am getting tired of typing now. But is it not a wonder that we question our federal law enforcement when the "appear to screw up" And by the by a federal law enforcement org. is un-constitutional, just read the constitution. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 4:39:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Why doesnt somone use the Freedom Of Information act to get the friggen guys name.
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Posted: 3/4/2002 4:49:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: They never produced one piece of evidence that showed David Koresh or anyone else in the "compound" was molesting the children, and as a matter of fact that point was left out of the trial of the suviors of that splendid piece of law enforcement fiasco. . It is a fact that the federal government paid Randy Weaver and his family 3.2 million dollars for a wrong they said they did not commit. I am getting tired of typing now. But is it not a wonder that we question our federal law enforcement when the "appear to screw up" And by the by a federal law enforcement org. is un-constitutional, just read the constitution. Find me the specific part of the Constitution that outlaws federal law enforcement. I would say since the Constitution gives the government a sytem to pass laws the FF would have expected an appropriate apparatus to enforce those laws. LEO's are not a single minded group. Many local law enforcement agencies don't like federal agencies, but federal agencies, when they choose to, can bring enormous resources with them to help an investigation. To say that Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. are the fault responsibility of all LEO's is like saying gun makers are responsible for crime. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 5:00:18 PM EDT
[#43]
To say that Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. are the fault responsibility of all LEO's is like saying gun makers are responsible for crime.
That is not what I said, this is what I said "But is it not a wonder that we question our federal law enforcement when the "appear to screw up"" I am going to cut and past the part of the constitution I was refering to. As long as it is taking for this page to download it will take some time. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 5:11:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Who said there was an problem with questioning, or examining what the police do??
The problem I pointed out was the fact that some people will never be happy with what the police do, right, wrong, or questionable. THey aren't interested in a dispassionate review of an incident, they want a biased name calling bashing seesion. They complain when people try to post views that run contrary to their "barney screwed up" views, and then complain when the people don't particpaate in a bashing session. Examination is fine, bashing isn't. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 6:15:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Today in America, law enforcement agencies in every state have begun a dangerous trend towards militarization. The commonly held image of a police officer as a friendly, approachable person is rapidly changing into that of a hooded soldier. Television shows such as “America’s Most Wanted” and “Cops” show viewing audiences images of police officers kicking down doors and throwing flash grenades while wearing masks to cover their identity. To many people this somewhat new portrait of police comes into direct conflict with their longtime cherished concepts of the duties of a police officer. Serious questions about civil liberties must be asked whenever the line between the police and the military is blurred.
In some instances, the new police have become the front line and most encountered form of policing. This is especially the case in inner city Ghettos, where regular patrols are viewed to be too “soft” for the environment. “When you have police in military uniforms with military weapons, sometimes with tanks and armored personnel carriers, this reinforces the idea that the police are an occupation army as opposed to partners in communities.” In time this creates erosion in the trust of police forces and the outcomes are usually negative. In addition, the police officers rightfully view the local population as the enemy. From here only abuses from both sides can be expected. The mindset of a the soldier is simply not appropriate for the civilian police officer. Police officers confront not an enemy but individuals who are protected by the Bill of Rights. Sometimes they forget this. This is our main problem nowdays, the mindset of the new SWAT Cop or Federal Agent, where EVERYONE other than other law officers are the enemy. And the enemy MUST be dealt with as an animal not as a citizen. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 7:43:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Wait a second. Since when does the FBI have the authority to make traffic stops?
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Posted: 3/4/2002 7:54:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: The commonly held image of a police officer as a friendly, approachable person is rapidly changing into that of a hooded soldier. Television shows such as “America’s Most Wanted” and “Cops” show viewing audiences images of police officers kicking down doors and throwing flash grenades while wearing masks to cover their identity. To many people this somewhat new portrait of police comes into direct conflict with their longtime cherished concepts of the duties of a police officer. Serious questions about civil liberties must be asked whenever the line between the police and the military is blurred. Can't remember ever dropping a flashbang on anyone lately. What you see most of the time on TV is the SWAT guys because it is "Exciting"...would you believe it if I told you that in actuality Police Work is mostly boredom? You'll never see me on COPS because I do regular patrol, I write summonses and answer 911 calls. Very rarely do I actually go on a legit "gun-run" and I work in the nation's largest and most famous(infamous?) Departments! Soldier? Please, I'd love to do patrol with an SMG and a balaclava! |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 8:44:19 PM EDT
[#48]
By the way, what does the victim being an eagle scout have to do with that story? Tears factor? Oh, come on, Alladin, don't be so holier than thou. You might as well ask what does the criminal being an FBI agent have to do with it, "truth, justice, and the American way" factor? He is a criminal, you know. He shot an unarmed person doing nothing illegal who was minding his own business and for no good reason. A civilian would have been tossed into the slammer faster than J. Edgar could have abused his pet poodle. Even in the military there probably would have been a general court. But the FBI, DEA, and ATF seem to be above the law, and not very competent to boot. |
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Posted: 3/4/2002 8:50:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Surrounded by law enforcement with no witnesses other than a frightened girl, what are the chances of getting an objective, comprehensive investigation of this event?
The official story will be "I saw a gun" or "I saw a flash", or something. The other officers will back him up or say it could have been so. There will be an official apology while defending the officer's actions as justified under the situation. The LE agency will be sued and settle out of court. Meanwhile, some young man grows up without a face and the same thing continues to happen. I think we'd be better off with armed airline pilots than armed FBI agents. Airline pilots are more mature and responsible. |
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Posted: 3/5/2002 2:30:58 AM EDT
[#50]
I'm surprised that he only fired the one shot. Must of forgot his "Plant" weapon, and decided not to spray the car. I guess the girl should feel lucky that the agent wasn't in a bad mood and shot here for being a accessory.
A few years ago, there was a off duty LEO working a night club here in Denver. Dumped two mags of ammo into a car full of people as the car drove off from the night club. Both of these LEO will walk away a free man!!! I don't care who you are, LEO or not, If you wrongfully shoot or kill someone, you need to stand trial. This bullshit that "It comes with the job" is a load of crap. If LE had to stand trial for murder charges in wrongful deaths suits, they would be a little less trigger happy. Also, the people with a "Inferiority complex" would be less likely to join the LEO to become "The powerful Man with a Gun", if they knew that they would stand trial for their wrongful actions. P.S. I'm not blasting all LEO, only the screw ups that the union keeps from being fired or were ever allowed to join in the first place. |
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