How do you rank the system of government we presently "enjoy"?

Don't compare us to other nations, "better than them" isn't good enough.

How is our current government compared to what it used to be, what it was supposed to be, what it could be?

2nd vote.

The answer is a combination of 1 and 2.  America is still the best country in the world, which really isn't part of the original question, but is listed as one of the possible answers.  Try traveling in other countries for a while and you will realize how good we have it.  The government needs improvement, but it is not to point of revolution as some here think/hope.  Those that think it is at that point, when are you going to stop yakking about it and start the revolution?  

I figure this was started so that anyone who expressed any love for our country could get blasted for doing so.  I could be wrong.

"I love my country but I fear my government."

Living in the best prison is still a prison.

It isn't comforting to say that USA is the best country, when it ISN'T what the Founders intended.  We are strip searching old men and profiling 3 y/o's in the airport.  We burn women & children for their religious beliefs.

I did NOT start this threat to blast folks that love America.  I love America.  I just love the America we used to be, the America our Founders intended.

I don't love where our AmeriKa is headed.  A true Patriot can acknowledge that AmeriKa is way off track.

I voted for #2 because there is a huge difference between armed revolution and peaceful reconstruction.

IMHO we do not(yet) have an oppressive government situation that would warrant armed defense of our rights and family's well being. The wrongs in our government can be made right by a few simple steps.

1. Emplace an enforceable term limit for ALL elected positions from city council to the Congress. Mr. Jefferson had a pretty good idea on this about 230 years ago, limit everyone to 1 term of office, no exceptions. You serve, then go home and let your neighbor have a turn. This one step eliminates about 3/4's of the time wasting legislation our elected officials undertake.
2. Elimination of 50% of the Federal government. Shut down offices, end programs, fire bureaucrats by the dozens. Fill the power vacuum by giving the power to enforce these programs to the individual states, just as the Constitution intended. BTW, you would find that the states would administer these programs much better than the Federal government. It is easier to go to city hall or the state house and voice your concerns to a neighbor than to go to the US Government and speak to a professional politician.

With implementation of these two ideas, the American people could regain the control of the USA, just as the Founding Fathers intended as seen in the Constitution.

We're good. There's no other government that does as well as ours.

our system is a unique experiment in personal liberty in the history of mankind. it's the best there is, and deserves respect and protection.

but it needs work. human nature being what it is, i dont think it's going to get better any time soon. in fact i think we're going to follow the time-honored path to decadence. eventually the barbarians will come to pick the carcass.

the best we can realistically hope for is to delay the inevitable (hopefully another century or two) until there's a new, new world where we can try to resume the experiment.

i dont fear our government, but i dont trust it, either. it's mostly harmless drudges keeping food on the table.

That doesn't matter.

Compare our government to what it SHOULD be, not to what the rest of the world has.


Again, a guilded cage is still a cage.

I'm in a very comfortable seat in a car heading off a cliff.  Pretty view too!

I think America is still the best country! I love America and would not want to be any where else! When are four father started and up to the 1900 America was a hell of a lot better back then! Are government is screwed up big time but it can be fixed . We are trying to fix it now with the soft war we are wagging right now. We are fighting it there way in the courts and in this war we have a good high ground to fight on the contusion of the united states.

When and if are contusion is infringed and stripped away from us then it will turn to a hard war. It may be in the near further if we don't start winning more of these soft wars and they way things are going now it just maybe a Republican that tries to take are right's away from us all

"Now how can we argue with that? I think we are all indebted to Gabby Johnson here for clearly stating what had to be said. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, but it expressed a courage that is little seen in this day and age." -Blazing Saddles

Thanks [b]tayous1[/b] [:D]

[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~thegardenweasel/4horse.jpg[/img]


Only we landowners should vote!

America is the best!.....but we can't rest on our laurel.....We got to strive to make it better.

Remember:

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country..."

And my all time favorite:

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we will pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty."  John F. Kennedy

God bless America.

Yes.

you just disenfranchised a whole bunch of people. are you really sure you want to do that?

I voted for #3.

The government we get, we deserve.  We elect them (or don't).  We pay attention (or don't).  We make ourselves heard (or don't).  We get informed (or don't).  

We are where we're at because too many people are either disaffected or stupid.  I don't know how to overcome that.  Only two things are boundless - the universe, and human stupidity.  And I'm not sure about the universe.

[i]Democracy is when the indigent, and not the men of property, are the rulers. [/i]
Aristotle

Ok, what SHOULD our government be? Remember: all humans are fallible. Walk a mile in a man's path before you judge him.

Not in the literal sense, but
I do believe that the paramount goal of many office holders has turned from serving the public to seeking re-election. (Duh!)
They in turn seek out large groups of people who they view as "rent seekers" looking for a free ride at public expense.

its as good as your voting record

would term limits achieve the same goal? i'm not concerned about the risk of impairing some politician's "right" to hold office repeatedly, but im very worried by the prospect of depriving citizens of the right to vote.

unfortunately i don't see these two things happening without a revolution.

the PTB would not stand for it.

I don't know if I should feel about what you said there? I'm going to take it as good because I loved the movie.

I voted for #3.  

Someone previously suggested that the size of our government be decreased by 50%.  Does anyone here think that is a realistic hope?  Do you really think that the government will voluntarily castrate itself?  Yes, the USA is founded on righteous principles exemplified in the U.S. Constitution, but our current politicians are not following in the footsteps of our founding fathers.

I agree that we as citizens must fix what ails the country, but there is no way that the gov't will be cut in half without an armed revolution.  I am not saying that I believe in armed response at this time, I am only making an observation and it is only MHO.

ROFL!

I meant it only in a good way.  I understand what you were trying to say, it just reminded me of that funny scene in the movie.  No offense intended.

"We the people...do ordain and establish..."

"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States..."

"The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."

"The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to
time ordain and establish."

The government of the United States is as good as its people because we are the government.  We've only [b]vested[/b] our powers in these various authorities and institutions.  We collectively are responsible for the current state of our government.  It's not as if it is some foreign entity imposed upon us from outside by force.  We the people chose to make it the way it is today, for better or worse, and we the people can change it.  We still have free elections.

We the people could certainly stand some improvement.  But don't treat the government as if it is somehow separate from that.  We get the government we deserve because we are the government.

 I have seen no government give up authority without at least the threat of force.  The current oligarchy is no different.
 What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

None taken. I thought it was funny.

Right now we are on a socialistic bent, but that's begining to end. Things will only get beter from here. So far the things that have been browken are fixable. What needs to happen is a cutting in goverment size equal too, and inverse of the 'great society', and much of the 'new deal'. Those 2 presidents and programs did more to send us carening towards socialism then anything else. Oh and a repel of the NFA wouldn't hurt either [;)]

I voted #4.  I wouldn't give this government the praise of "decent", but we aren't quite illegal, as by fight4yourrights' definition, anyway.

I would argue against choice number five because even the most socialist liberal makes an attempt to follow at least parts of the constitution that suits them.  So we know the COTUS still has an impact on Americans of any political spectrum when running for political office, and such.

But the country is still way off track.  Big time.

Good question.  I'm not the wordsmith that some folks here are, but I'll take a stab.

Our country [i]should be[/i] what the Founders intended, a land of opportunity where all men were created equal, were ensured equal treatment under the law, and where the government's very limited role included protecting your rights and your right to property.

This country should go out of it's way to ensure fair treatment, adequate redress of grievances, protection of property rights.  We should never have a Waco or Ruby Ridge.  We shouldn't have folks like McVeigh (if he really did it) blowing up Federal Buildings because they can't think of any other means of redress.

We shouldn't have no-knock raids where we shoot innocent 12 y/o's in the back with a shotgun, or stomp a person's dog to death, or throw a deputy's pregnant wife into a wall hard enough to induce a miscarriage.

We should send 40 men in 4 helicopters on a pre-dawn raid to try and harrass fishermen, claiming that we are searching for undersized fish in their freezers.

We shouldn't force children into run down gov't indoctrination centers called public schools, where the liberals teach them that 2 mommies are better than a mommie and daddie, and they should narc out their parents for growing pot in a locked basement room.

America shouldn't be sending it's boys into places like Vietnam and the Mog w/out the means and wherewithal to do the job.  We shouldn't be inferring where we aren't welcome, yet ignoring slaughters like in Africa.

America isn't supposed to be a place where your own government is gleefully trying to entrap the innocent, yet going out of it's way to protect the guilty.  We should be trying the rapist, not the victim.  We shouldn't be arresting homeowners who's only crime was self defense.  We shouldn't be bankrupting those same people, just because we can.

We shouldn't be seizing homes and destroying neighborhoods, just to put in an Ikea, because we feel it a "better usage of the land".  It's not OUR land, it's the homeowners.  If we can't make them a good enough offer, find another place.

America shouldn't be making it impossible for the citizen to be law abiding, but we do since this is the best means of control.  We shouldn't be using Fear to strip our people of their rights and dignity.

Most of all, we should be the kind of country where when an injustice occurs, such as the ones mentioned, punishment is levied against the agents that crossed the line.  Our current method of harrassement and finally throwing a few dollars to the victims is a mockery of what this country stands for, and ensures these travesties occur again and again.

Fairness.  Justice.  Due Process.  Property Rights.  Personal Freedoms.

These are just cardboard cutouts today.  They are empty and without substance in AMERI[b]K[/b]A.

Property owners and gunowners, then.

Do we?  Do we have free elections?  Or do the 2 parties in charge ensure we "can choose any color we want, as long as it's black"?

THEY have set up the system to be virtually impervious to fixing it.

Yes, if the public would educate themselves and get more proactive, there is a slim chance we could change things, but THEY have set up the rules to make sure that is difficult, and they've set up the (de)education system to make sure it never happens in the first place.

There are only two party to vote from. I for one don't think anyone of them are right. I still say that someone that can take the positive from both sides is the best person to leaded this country.

[left]What really scares me is about all these high tech devices that the Government wants to place like the eye scanner's, camara's on every street corner with facial scanning tech. why does the Government want's all guns banned? to make us safe is purely B.S. the Feds has showen us in the past they can do whatever they please
, and we cannot do anything about it. you think you own your home see what happens if you fail to pay land taxes just once! remember what was said i really believe is sooo true legislation can trample a mans right's only a mile away, just like a king can thousand's of mile's away.[/left]

Ok, I see where you are coming from. You've pointed out some significant problems, but how would you propose to fix them? It's easy to sit in our comfy home and bitch and moan about how our country has gone to hell. There are people out there trying to make a difference, but it's monumental task. What would YOU do to help rectify the problems we are facing?

We have the best damn country on the planet.  In comparision, I'm not sure that really says much.

There are a lot of people out there that want to change this but what you may get 1,000 people together that want to start a revalotion? That is not near enough people we all must weight until time tells us to strike. Or all we are going to be is a bunch of crazy.

Tack should be with all of us how feel there is going to be a day of judgement for are government. Until that day walk softly for soon that day will come be it next weed or 50 years from now.
 

I can't.  I try the political route, join the organizations, I'm a board member for the [url=www.mcdl.org]Maryland Citizens Defense League[/url], it's I know it won't stem the tide.  I do it so when the shooting starts, I can have a clear conscience that I tried to work within the system.

"THEY" could fix the problem by following the Constitution.  They admit Lon Horuchi violated Vicki Weaver's Constitutional Rights, yet they refuse to prosecute.  That must change.  THEY must hold themselves accountable, THEY must follow the Constitution, and stop violating it.  THEY could start reversing these illegal laws, stop trampelling the little people, stop harrassing and robbing the plebes.  But they won't.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  The Machine eats up the people and grows larger, increasing it's appetite in the process.

WE the people must educate ourselves and hold them to the contract, the Constitution.  Unforunately, I don't see how this can happen.  Bread & Circuses entertain the masses while Rome burns.

Collectively, WE & THEY must face the music.  We must admit what is wrong with the system and fix it.  That is where "bitch and moan" comes into play.  Unfortunately, not enough people will listen.

Oh Jesus.  Aren't you the guy that says the you'd trade your gun rights for Kalifornia's women any day (or something to that effect)?

Many of us have read and understand the following quote:

"... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they  misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What  signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787, letter to William S. Smith

As each generation passed without the people rising up in defense of what's just and right (with arms if need be), the constitution-haters just got bolder and bolder. We as a people only give a damn about catching the next episode of Fear Factor, so the raping and pillaging of the COTUS continues unabated.

History shows us that when nations have reached the state that ours has, the power-mongers never give up their ill-gotten gains quietly. The only solution in these instances has been revolution.

Yes, I believe the only way to right this ship is by armed revolution at this point. Every new day that I rise, I pray there will be an easier way, yet I continue my preparations for my role in the revolution.

America is the greatest country on Earth..
However the government has gone WAY over the line

Some examples: Social Security, Endangered Species Act, DEA, ATF to name a few.

I know some great people that work for these branches of the government and my hats off to them, but what is wrong is wrong.....Americans need to go to the voting booth and let their voices be heard.

I've seen some good posts in this thread. Some think we can turn this around. I agree with Fight, we have lost the education (indoctrination) system. We have lost control of our money supply. We have lost control of a "Free press". A lot of you may live in urban areas. I think us country dwellers see things differently. We have lost our property rights. Unconstitutional property regulations are , and have been, put in place because they are specified by international treaty (UN). They are able to do this because the supreme court has ruled that treaty law trumps the Constitution! Here in Oregon, we voted that govt. MUST reimburse a land owner for regulations that drop his property value.(See Bill of Rights, Article 5 last sentence).  A judge shot it down, thus violating his oath of office. We have no means of redress. We are dealing with outlaws. Take a good look at who really benefits by this "War on Terror" for example. I was amazed at the # of American flags visiable after 9/11. Too bad, most don't know what it means. ALL the politicians refer to this country as a "Democracy", as do the media. The public doesn't know better 'cause they aren't being taught. We educate ourselves and each other. I urge you all, read "Unintended Consequences", by John Ross.......TERM LIMITS don't work!!!!!! The PEOPLE are the term limits! Only when they are INFORMED.......Good luck to all of you, we're gonna need it!!

Speaking property rights/land use, liberty86, here in the state of Utah the feds control about 80% of the land, much of it desert. But klintons landgrab of the Escalante Wilderness locked gazillions of BTU's in the form of clean burning coal up. The mining company had it all ready to go by way of land friendly slant drilling which would have meant hundreds of good jobs. We import the same grade of coal from Indonesia as part of klintons payoff for his buddies there.  Utah is synonymous with conservative politicians, but Hatch, Bennett know nothing, can do nothing, Pres. Bush has done nothing to reverse this ecoterrorism which keeps Utah and that region of Utah especially dependant on tourism.

My point almost exactly.  (However, I quoted Aristotle in response to the "landowner" comment.)  We have been moving towards a true "mob rule" democracy for decades.  Look at how the Democrats howled about the Electoral College when Gore "won" by 500,000 votes in the popular election.  You think Bush wouldn't have protested if he'd "won" the popular vote, but lost in the Electoral College?  I don't.  As fight4yourrights said:  A sentiment I agree with wholeheartedly.