User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 11:35:43 AM EDT
[#1]
In some states, Georgia being one of them, foregoing the NICS check is as easy as obtaining a CCW. I don't know what provisions your state has in place regarding this, but it may be a viable option. It seems the government is going to obtain your personal information one way or another. Good Luck.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 11:53:40 AM EDT
[#2]
[url=]http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsappeals.htm[/url]
Guide to Appealling a NICS Firearm Transfer Denial REQUESTING REASONS FOR YOU DENIAL STEP 1 1. You may request the reason(s) for your denial by writing to: Federal Bureau of Investigation, NICS Operations Center, Research Analysis, P.O. Box 4278, Clarksburg, West Virginia, 26302-4278 You must include your complete mailing address in the request. If you do not include your mailing address, the NICS Operations Center will be unable to process your appeal. The NICS Transaction Number (NTN) is a tracking number that is directly linked to your denial. You must include the NTN with your request. You should obtain the NTN from the dealer where you are purchasing the firearm. 2. The NICS Operations Center will respond to your request by providing the reason(s) for your denial within five business days after receiving your request. This response will indicate whether you must provide additional information to support any appeal. ************************************************ Find out why you were denied. I wouldn't think a DUI would result in denial, unless it was felony. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 11:53:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Oh and isn't it convenient that the Dealer must keep ALL 4473s, even if they didn't result in a sale? Sounds like the illegal recording of NICS checks that we have been fighting so hard against.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 11:55:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:00:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN. Obviously not or I wouldn't have been denied! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:18:39 PM EDT
[#6]
I always list my SSN when I do a 4473. Personally, I now tend towards private sales to avoid the hassle and illegal registration. But, I don't see why you wouldn't give your SSN.
I once had an FFL who was transferring a Receiver ask me to put my DL Number under "other ID". But, now I try to get any gun I want in private sales if possible to avoid the government knowing what I have. I only have 1 gun left that I got from a dealer. The rest are all off the books. But, sometimes you have to go through a dealer to get what you want. As, I am going to probably have to do when I order the Receiver to build an FAL. Receivers are near impossible to get in a Private Sale. But, it feels great when you walk into a gun show and buy/sell a gun no questions asked with no 4473 and no NICS. That was how the founding fathers intended it to be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:24:41 PM EDT
[#7]
worse than this the DUI alone could be a felony and cause permanent loss of your rights.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:46:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: will be denied purchase of a firearm in 2002. What can I do about this crap? Use your CCL for ID instead of your DL. Even though you'll still have to go thru NICS, it'll seperate you from the trailer trash that shares your name. Make sure you're correct on the "denied" portion & it's not "pending". |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:51:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Sorry to hear that you got denied from the NICS. We have a member here, IIRC it was Grand Shooter who also has a lot of problems getting instant NICS approval without a delay each time he fills out the form. Many FFL's had a problem with the old forms recently, which resulted in denials and eventually no sales for some shops untill the ATF allowed copies of the new form in the interim. This could have been what happened to you this time, but if you experience this often there is something else going on. I wish that I had more info for you, good luck getting this squared away.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 12:52:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Sorry to hear that [b]TacticalMan[/b]. Yours is just another case of incremental gun banning. I've been accused of being a broken record about this on this site, but dammit - the Feds aren't f*cking around anymore. I said it before in another thread and I'm gonna be say it again here: [b]EVERYONE'S guns have already been banned, they're just taking their time rounding them up.[/b] Eventually you'll break one of their Draconian laws and the Feds will knock on your door and cart off your guns because you got in a bar fight 20yrs ago or because you called a mugger a "nigger" once or because, in your case, you got a DUI 20yrs ago. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 1:02:58 PM EDT
[#11]
If your DUI was 1) a felony, OR, 2) the judge could have sentanced you for more than one year - you are DOA. My opinion is non violent felons should be able to buy firearms. Get involved in an aggressive gun rights organization and try to make a difference.
If the answer to both questions is no, then have you ever been arrested for anything else and not convicted? Many times the records of dispositions are not sent to the FBI. In many cases, only the arrest record will show up. They have a very difficult time finding old dispositions at the local level in many cases. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 1:07:03 PM EDT
[#12]
[b]F*ck their lists!! Too many of us are afraid of "lists"! Call DOJ/FBI and complain!
DUNCAN ADAMS 56375 PROSPER RD. (The house with 2 flags on the flagpole, 1 AMERICAN, 1 DON'T TREAD ON ME!) BANDON, OREGON Stand up and be counted dammit and get the book![/b] (Unintended Consequences, by John Ross) |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 1:50:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Sounds like this falls under the same heading as the ratchet down on FFLs that's happened in the last ten years. If they make it more and more difficult to buy or sell a firearm, maybe people will just take up crocheting or water polo instead. Or if they tax the ammunition 10,000% (rot in hell daniel [B]P[/B]at[B]RICK[/B] moynihan) they've not banned anything, just turned your tactical assault sniper armor piercing high capacity velocirifle into a club, and a damned inefficient one at that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 2:23:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I always list my SSN when I do a 4473. But, I don't see why you wouldn't give your SSN. Why should you? If they asked for 5 credit card numbers, would you comply with that too? I would recommend giving as little information as is legally required. Keep in mind that form already has your full name and address, and date of birth. Along with your SSN, it contains everything required for identity theft. You should guard that information as much as possible. The best way to do this is not provide it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 4:22:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: worse than this the DUI alone could be a felony and cause permanent loss of your rights. 1st DUIs in my state are punishable by a max 3 days in jail. Don't think it was that. Never had more than a ticket other than that. Quoted: Use your CCL for ID instead of your DL. Concealed carry is a felony in my state. In this state, we carry illegally and hope it gets busted down to an improper handling. It was definetely a "denied" and not a "pending" or a "delayed". Quoted: Many FFL's had a problem with the old forms recently, which resulted in denials and eventually no sales for some shops untill the ATF allowed copies of the new form in the interim. This could have been what happened to you this time, but if you experience this often there is something else going on. No, this was an original of the new, detestable racist form. This really annoys me because the most contact I have with the law is partying with my cousins (cops) at weddings and volunteering my time to inner city schools (also cops involved in that). On the whole, I tend to agree with The_Macallan. I'm surprised they didn't ask me to read a Chinese newspaper. You know, the one that says "Ain't no niggers voting in this county" You can add to that "You ain't buyin' no guns either boy". |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 4:40:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. To paraphrase a state police armorer, who taught a CCW class I had, if it's very hard to find a dealer you trust with a deposit, why would you trust them with your SSN when you don't have to? Of course, his opinion was skewed, because he mentioned he had two friends who got burned after the spouse of a dealer used info from her husband's 4473's to open a checking accounts in several of his customer's names. This was a double problem in this state, because your concealed carry permit is revoked if you convicted of writing a bad check.z |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 4:46:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed.
What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself? Aimless, I appreciate the constructive advise. But I think they should feel my pain somehow. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/24/2002 5:24:35 PM EDT
[#18]
... Only a matter of time before we are all criminals.
Read Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/25/2002 1:28:40 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: ... Only a matter of time before we are all criminals. Read Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged It's happening in California today. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/25/2002 8:57:45 AM EDT
[#20]
does this mean you cannot legally own a gun? if so, are you going to draw a line in the sand when the JBT's come to confiscate your collection [:(]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/25/2002 9:33:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed. What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself? Aimless, I appreciate the constructive advise. But I think they should feel my pain somehow. Your not going to be able to find any statistical information on that. its not like the Federal government will admit: "Hey, these people (criminals) were denied, but 32% are actually innocent and we know who they are." Send a professional letter of complaint to the NICs people at the above address. good luck dude |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/26/2002 7:55:07 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: does this mean you cannot legally own a gun? if so, are you going to draw a line in the sand when the JBT's come to confiscate your collection [:(] Exactly. If are denied on a NICS check, in the Feds eyes you are not legally able to buy or [b]possess[/b] firearms. Since you already own other guns you better get this thing taken care of. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/26/2002 8:00:05 AM EDT
[#23]
Maybe the NICS folks get kinda "weirded out" when you put "TacticalMan" on your 4473.
[}:D] |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 10:33:05 AM EDT
[#24]
UPDATE
I have sent the FBI a letter inquiring as to why I was denied. The response that I got back from the FBI was not in accordance with the procedure laid out at [url] www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsappeals.htm[/url]. Instead of informing me of the reason for my denial, they have requested that I identify myself with fingerprints. This effectively prevents me from taking the "Appeal Alternative" route and forces me to submit my personal information to their databases, like a convicted criminal. Am I the only one this bothers? Any lawyers out there care to take on a revue of their processes? Isn't it illeagal for them to do it this way? |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 11:20:53 AM EDT
[#25]
From the FBI's web page:
The NICS Operations Center will respond to your request by providing the reason(s) for your denial within five business days after receiving your request. TacticalMan, since it's been over five days and they haven't provided the reason(s) for the denail within five days, they are in violation of their own policy. I'd at least try a second contact asking for the information before going through the process of having fingerprints done. If your local sherrif's office is like mine, they won't do them except for certain specific reasons. Of course, if you ever plan on getting a CCW, then in most states you have to submit fingerprints anyway so it won't make a difference if you do send them in.z |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 11:30:15 AM EDT
[#26]
[center][u][b]18 USC 44 Sec. 925A[/b][/u][/size=2][/center]
[list]Any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (s) or (t) of section 922 - [list][b](1)[/b] due to the provision of erroneous information relating to the person by any State or political subdivision thereof, or by the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act; or [b](2)[/b] who was not prohibited from receipt of a firearm pursuant to subsection (g) or (n) of section 922, may bring an action against the State or political subdivision responsible for providing the erroneous information, or responsible for denying the transfer, or against the United States, as the case may be, for an order directing that the erroneous information be corrected or that the transfer be approved, as the case may be. In any action under this section, the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing party a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs [/list] [/list] |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 11:35:14 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN. Obviously not or I wouldn't have been denied! Actually, you're wrong. SS#'s are person specific, while a name may be had by many many people, your address is what distinguishes you from the rest if that gun has to be tracked back to you. There is no difference in putting your name or your SS# on a form these days, so I wouldn't worry about that either. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 12:39:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Actually, you're wrong. SS#'s are person specific No they are not! Many people have duplicate SSN's. The Social Security Administration intended for them to be, but they screwed-up many times in the past in assigning numbers. Also, blocks of numbers, like my SSN, were given to some employers to give-out to employees. Many companies, the largest was Southern Pacific Railroad if I remember correctly, gave-out duplicate numbers. I have two friends that I know about that were assigned the same SSN as someone else, because they had the same last name and were born on the same day as someone else that had applied for a number. The SSA gave-out the same number again thinking it was a duplicate request. Assuming that SSN's apply to a specific person are a common rookie database programmer mistake. Several banks have screwed-up customer accounts when they assumed a SSN was a unique key. The BATF has admitting to repeating this same novice mistake of assuming records with a given SSN apply to everyone with that SSN.z |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 1:23:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Isn't it illeagal for them to do it this way? Dude, they ARE THE LAW. When they can shoot innocents in the face, shoot women holding babies, burn down churches full of women and children, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET THEM TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR YOUR NICS CHECK? |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/9/2002 6:22:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Dude, they ARE THE LAW. When they can shoot innocents in the face, shoot women holding babies, burn down churches full of women and children, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET THEM TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR YOUR NICS CHECK? Touché I guess that just points out one of the evils of administrative law - they not only enforce the law, they make it up too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2002 4:25:30 AM EDT
[#31]
4 months after my initial denial the FBI finally gets their act together and figures out that I'm not a Dread Felon. I guess I should consider myself lucky; when i called one time they told me that they are under no legal obligation to EVER investigate appealed rejections.
Turns out that they denied me based on a charge, not a conviction. FWIW, $.02 please. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2002 7:19:56 AM EDT
[#32]
Your initial post confuses NICS "delays" and "denials".
If you are delayed, join the club. At the end of three days (in states that utilize the Federal NICS), the firearm is yours to pick up unless the intial delay is followed up by denial. [There are probably all sorts of variations on the delay period depending on where you live - I don't need to hear about it, the basics are identical everywhere.] If you are denied, apply the appeal process. If you find noncompliant agents, I would start by calling the US Attorney General's office, Congressmen, and the NRA. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2002 7:52:59 AM EDT
[#33]
I too was denied because of bogus info they had on my SSN. It was a state thing though. I called the folks and found out the reason was due to my SSN came back as a woman. It turns out that someone had stolen my SSN and had been arrested somewhere causing there system to redflag. It took a little while to clear things up. But if I didn't call back and question them. I would have never known about the my SSN getting hijacked. Another reason I am glad and I did not think about this until reading the whole thread. If I would have gotten busted for something serious and my gun collection came into play with me not being allowed to have one. Things would have gotten very interesting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/16/2002 8:59:01 AM EDT
[#34]
I too don't understand the NICS background check. When I lived in Ohio I was always delayed but they always called back in a few hours with a proceed. Since I moved to TN 8 months ago, I've bought a bakers dozen of various firearms and have never been turned down or delayed. When I first moved down here I bought a 9mm a week after I moved and it was approved without a hitch. Totally different address, same SS#.
Good luck Rick |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2002 10:30:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Gentlemen, as I said above, I finally got back a response from the FBI stating the reason for my denial. I was not convicted of that charge and the FBI took note of that and in their letter stated that, in fact, I am a Good Guy and can purchase firearms. With that knowledge firmly in hand, I went shopping for the coveted "Tactical Mauser". I found it in the form of a tight M48A. The dealer called in the NICS check and guess what? [:(!][b]DELAYED!!![/b][:(!][:(!]
(yes, I know thats' not technically the same as a denial, but it is functionally equivalent when you have to leave before the 2 hr minimum call-back period has expired. A Right delayed is a Right denied.) Which gives me an idea. These morons are checking NICS against arrest records, not conviction records. How can you tell anything about anybody from arrest records? My felony arrest charge was DROPPED! Is there anyone out there that, for my good and the good of my fellow countrymen, could help me bring suit against the NICS system? Or should I just have my name legally changed and forget it? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2002 12:23:41 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: My felony arrest charge was DROPPED! If the charges were "dropped" you need to have the arrest records expunged from the FBI and the state's criminal history system. The procedure varies depending on the state of the arrest. You need to contact an attorney in the state the arrest took place to advise you of the procedure. Depending on your state of residence you can also bypass the NICS check if you have a CCW permit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2002 4:55:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed. What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself? According to James Bovard, about 7%. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2002 5:44:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: worse than this the DUI alone could be a felony and cause permanent loss of your rights. This varies from state to state. I don't think it is generally a felony. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2002 5:50:58 PM EDT
[#39]
BTW, if I'm not mistaken, each state is free to implement its own version of the NICS system, and it they don't it defaults to the Fed system. I know here in Colorado the state does its own background checks. Maybe you should be checking with a state agency instead of the FBI?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2002 1:53:58 AM EDT
[#40]
Tactical man, contact a lawyer and ask him about getting that conviction, arrest, explunged from your record.
Then you can own anything with proper forms. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2002 12:48:58 PM EDT
[#41]
Thankx for the advice, guys. I will contact a lawyer. Heck, I don't care about getting the convictions expunged - it's the arrest that's killing me!
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
