For years, any time that I take the family for a nature walk or go to a park just outside town I've always carried my SW40F in a holster in the small of my back.  And every time we get ready to leave I hear the same thing from my wife & children - "What do you [u]need[/u] that for?"  My answer is the same every time.  "I'd rather have it & not need it, than need it & not have it."  After Saturday I doubt that I'll hear that again.....

Emily, Mrs A3kid, Serena (my new Border Collie, now 5 months old) and I went for a walk at a local park that lies right on the edge of the city limits.  It's bordered by 80 acres of the most densely wooded thickets in the area, has paved bike paths, and also just plain dirt trails that cut through various sections of the woods on & off of the park property.  I killed the biggest coyote I've ever seen on the property adjacent to the park about 7  years ago.  Any time I'm back there I'm carrying.  Period.

We had walked about 3/8 of a mile from the truck on the paved paths, and Emily wanted to cut through the woods on one of the dirt trails.  As we meandered along, the wife was slightly in the lead, next came me with Serena on the leash, and Emily trailed close behind us.  Suddenly, a [b]big[/b] white german shephard type dog rounded the corner in front of us and came straight at us.  He carried his head & tail low, the hair on his back was standing up and he never took his eyes off of Serena - he came in fast - not running but just short of it.  He wasn't wearing a coller, and as he approached I looked around behind him to see if his owner was near.  No signs of anybody.  I'm standing there, with an 8 year old daughter, my wife, and a 30 pound puppy - as a very mature (4-5 year old) great big f'in dog is coming in - real business like.  Real life SHTF situation unfolding - fast.

I grabbed the wife by the arm & pulled her to my left & behind me with the same hand I was holding the leash with.  At the same time I reached behind me and pulled my .40 from it's holster, but kept it behind my back.  In less than a second the dog was on us.  I had already decided that one snap / bite was all he was going to get.  I had Serena by her collar when he approached.  All of this happened in about 3-4 seconds -  it unfolded really fast - took us all surprise.

It turned out OK.  He came up, sniffed Serena a couple of times, and moved back.  He looked intimidating as hell but he was a really well-mannered dog.  As I was re-holstering the gun, his owner cleared the corner in front of us.  He didn't see my pistol, but judging from the look on his face as he watched me snapping the thumb break on the pistol behind my back - he knew what had just about happened.  The wife didn't say much about it then....but later she told me she was glad I had the pistol with me.  There was no doubt in any of our minds that we would have been totally fvcked [b]if[/b] that dog wanted trouble, and [b]if[/b] I hadn't been carrying.

Did I need it, like they always ask me?  No.  But everybody knows what could have happened.  And I doubt they'll ever say a word in the future when I they see me load up for a walk in the park.

It's always better to have it & not need it....  and I'm very grateful that my daughter didn't have to watch a dog attack / shooting at a range of 4 feet.

-kid

P.S. - Y'all keep your dogs on a leash, OK?

Glad to see ya didn't go John Wayne on the dog. Not that that wouldn't have been justified.

But ya kept your head.

Good (non) shootin', -kid.

g-man

Excellent story [b]a3kid[/b]!

I could tell Miz Hun your story a 1000 times and she would still tell me the same thing - 'You don't need that.'

I suppose it has to happen to some people in real life before they thoroughly understand that you always have to be on guard in this world.

In the next world it won't be that way, but in this world YOU are the first line of defense for your family!

Eric The(AndPrayerHelpsYouPickOutTheRightWeapon)Hun[>]:)]

My wife also use to complain about my wanting to carry my pistol whenever we went somewhere after I got my pemit to carry.  Now she does not say anything to me.

I think that most people just don't understand why anybody needs to carry but I guarantee that if they thought that they were going to be a victim of a crime they would want to carry.

MY wife went to CCW class WITH me.

Nah na na na na nah.

[:D]

After living in S. Florida for 16 years my wife knows the value of CCW. We both carried down there.  
She's even been enthusistic about my milsurp collection, of which I've added 9 rifles in the last 6 months.
BH

I'm glad I didn't have to!  I had already decided where the proverbial "line in the sand" was, and luckily he didn't cross it.  I figured even Serena could handle one "hit" as long as he didn't grip & shake her.  If he had done that, it would have been contact-shot city.....He was that close.  It would'be been all over for him too.  135gr Sierra hollowpoints handloaded [b]HOT[/b] at point-blank range.....nasty.

Man that was sure a close one. If the dog had attacked you and did bodily the owner could have been prosecuted.

I don't know if you heard about it but, in San Francisco, CA a dog escaped from a leash and KILLED a person. The DA is pursuing the case and is prosecuting the owners for manslaughter. And in another Calif. case in Barstow, about 130 miles east of L.A., approximately half way between L.A. and Las Vagas, NV. See link for complete story.

From the San Francisco Chronicle.
[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/MN16627.DTL[/url]
WAS IT MURDER?
A year ago, Diane Whipple was mauled to death by her neighbor's dog. Now, prosecutors face a tough task when they ask a jury to decide:

[url]http://www.desertdispatch.com/cgi-bin/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1001817598,70232,[/url]
Maximum sentence in dog-mauling death
BARSTOW — Emphasizing how defenseless a 10-year-old boy was against two pit-bull mix dogs that attacked and mauled him to death, a judge on Friday sentenced the animals’ former caretaker to the maximum prison term.

Barstow Superior Court Judge Thomas Glasser said little Cash Carson was “particularly vulnerable” to the dogs which “calls for and justifies” sentencing 54-year-old James Chiavetta to four years in prison for involuntary manslaughter.

Better safe than sorry.
BUT...

Dogs are dogs.  I take my dog to places where other dogs play off leash, all the time.  If you know dogs, then you know that dogs get into it now and then.  That's just what dogs do.  A dog fighting with your dog doesn't necessarily mean you have to shoot it.  Situational awareness.
My dog approaches other dogs just as you described the shepard.  The back hair up, tail stiff, a few sniffs, and then maybe the tail wags, OR he walks away.

That being said, a dog coming down the trail like that... ...who knows?
You did the right thing, and you were ready.  If, in the situation you described, you had shot the approaching dog, you would have deeply regretted it.

Exaclty, MM.  I never would have shot him for approaching us aggressively, that would be insane.  I do disagree slightly with you over the issue of fighting and "that's what dogs do", though.  The size/age disparity in that situation was too great for me to just let dogs be dogs.  Later on when she can hold her own, maybe....

And the responsible owner of a dog that's known to be aggressive would keep it on a leash. Period.

^

My wife's[rolleyes] the same way, a3kid.
You were prepared!

"Dogs and bees can smell fear"

Glad you are all okay Scott!

You're right...............a very serious situation will generally be upon you with little or no warning leaving you only your intellect and your instincts as protection.

You were alert to your surroundings (primary rule of readiness), you scoped out the dog immediately and noticed the aggressive posturing, you cleared your family out of the immediate hot zone (in the lead) and you laid hands on your weapon knowing full well that within the next few miliseconds you may have to fire it.

And, as a capper you quickly and cautiously returned your weapon to it's hiding place when the threat was over and you felt safe again.

Very smart and very keen..... keeps you and your family (Serena included of course)uninjured and alive!

Good lesson for us all.

Good Job!!! Your heart was on fire but your head was cool as ice![8D]

Y'all are aware of Ohio's CCW laws, right?  I may have left something important out of my story on purpose........

[rolleyes]

Would that be the visibility of your holstered firearm? [;)]

Let's see:

Open carry, although "legally legal", will get you arrested in most parts of Ohio.

Concealed carry, although "illegal with ambiguous exceptions", isn't an issue unless you get caught.

And the above statements are true even though the state constitution states that "The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security" (Part 1, Section 4).

Yep, it makes sense to me! [whacko]

[:D]

[peep]

[heavy]

[peep]

[heavy]

Post from a3kid -

What? That you were actually carrying your handgun to the nearest gun repair shop for some needed work, right?

Surely that's legal in Ohio!

BTW, have you noticed that the Old South and the Old West are areas of the country where concealed carry and the gun culture seem to thrive!

I swear, it's not like we here in the South harbor any grudges or anything about that late unpleasantness, or anything, it's just that we ain't gonna ever let it happen again!

Eric The(NeverAgain!)Hun[>]:)]

My son Shiloh-Scout dog wants to see a pic of Serena...matter o fact, why doncha put her pic up on "Am I hot or Not?" -->kidding man...


good job there A3kid.

I don't blame you, I was getting the mail and walking or 13 yo shepard. He was the nicest dog.....and at the time dying of cancer. We were attacked by a pit bull. I started to grab a weapon and did not have it there.
Fortunaly I was able to grab the pit bull by the throat and tail when he attacked.  
I was glad it was not my pregnant wife gettingthe mail that day.
People do not understand the dangers in our civilized communities

I have had people tell me I don't need to carry all the time.  I ask them if the bad guys have certain working hours and if so, let me know and I won't carry during their off hours.  I also compare carrying to wearing a seat belt.  I don't expect to be in a wreck, but once the wreck starts happening, it's too late to put the seat belt on.  Like someone already said, I would rather always have it and NEVER need it than to need it just once and not have it.

There's an idiot down the highway from my daughter's farm house who lets his two Chows run all over creation.

The property's fenced - for cattle, not dogs!

Anyway, one time I was in the back yard with my 4 year old granddaughter, Kristin, when the two Chows came up into the back yard, about 100 yards away.

They stopped and looked at the two of us intently. I pulled the Glock 27 from my waistband and chambered a round. Apparently, the dogs watch television or something, 'cause they moved along rather quickly after that!

But I have long since complained to my daughter not to let Kristin run around outside unattended! This is out in the country, damn it, and no child should not be permitted to have the full range of their own yard!

If I didn't think I'd ....

Eric The(Nevermind!)Hun[>]:)]

Kid,

Good job!  You did that perfectly...and nobody was hurt.

My missus was the same way...until a big stray mutt chased her and the grandkids into the house one day.  Fortunately, they were just out front and there were no casualties.  Since then, she never blinks when I grab my P-99 on the way out the door for a walk.

Unfortunately, we no longer walk with our Golden, since he died a couple of years ago...but the kids (5 & 2 1/2) are still an easy target.  As much as I love pooches, one attacks them or Grandma-Momma and the pooch has sealed his fate.

For the most part, our semi-rural neighborhood is really safe...but occasionally we get a stray out looking for some trouble and there are a couple of mean mutts along the route and they have escaped in the past...albeit not while we were walking.  That is why I bring my friend with me.

You shouldn't even of pulled your gun, you should have had a can of 2 millions scoville pepper spray on you
-----------
soory to inform you of this, I used my issue OC on a criminal, he was not high or anything....2 streams to the face, 30 seconds before he started to feel it...I would not trust it on a dog

I was almost in the situation in my own apartment complex.  I carried as we had a mix of drug dealers/dogs/bad guys.  Coming from the mailroom, a group of people were sitting on the trunk of their car and had a huge German Shepard.  As soon as they saw me, I heard, "Get 'im", and he came running at me full speed.  I lifted my shirt and reached for my weapon.  They saw me do that and started calling the dog back and whistling and whatever they could do to stop their dog.  Lucky for the dog he listened.
I guess I'm saying "Good job" for keeping your head.

The pistol on your belt gives you acceptable options.

No weapons at all leaves you at the discretion of the biting machine.

After playing tug of war with an acquaintance's pit bull, I have lost a lot of confidence in my peppergas.  That dog's head was so muscle-bound, it was round!  In view of how powerfully it could latch onto stuff and jerk the hell out of it, I would just write myself off if it had latched onto my arm.

Remember, folks, a dog's mouth dishes out about as much damage as a 9mm bullet strike (source: the evening news discussing police dog bites).  Just because you (easily) get away with kicking some dog's @$$es, doesn't mean you weren't in a serious situation.

You'll find out what's what, when a decent biting machine latches onto you.

You would know, you were standing right beside me.



What are you, and undercover agent for HCI?



Dude, I'm not 6'4" & 250lbs like most internet personalities.  I weigh 138lbs, exactly what I weighed when I graduated from high school.  Choosing to go it hand to hand with an adult German shepard, when a firearm is readily accessible would be [b]stoopid[/b] of me.



I'm not willing to risk the well being of my wife and child on that 1% chance....



Again - [b]"usually"[/b]?




[b]Rambo, is that you?[/b]

Have you ever been chewed up by a dog?  I've got scars on all 4 fingers of my right hand from and experience like that and I can damn well guarantee you that it isn't a pleasant experience.  You sound like you're arguing from the position that since the dog probably wouldn't have killed one of us, deadly force wouldn't have been called for.  I beg to differ.

And I'd also wager a cup of coffee that you don't have any children......

Wolfpack,

You are wrong. A German Shepherd that wants to kill you [b]will[/b] kill you, and there's nothing that your feet, hands, voice, or 2 million SHU pepper spray can do to stop him in that case. If he breaks off his attack, it means he wasn't trying to kill you in the first place. If he's coming from the front he will knock you flat on your back, and have your throat torn out before you can point the pepper spray in the right direction. If you run away he'll hamstring you then go for your throat. I'm surprised you didn't recommend letting the dog chew on your weak arm while you beat him with your other hand. No big dog I've ever seen would let an arm distract him from his main goal - the throat - and I've seen more than 1 dog ignore being beat with an axe handle or good-sized stick long enough to kill the dog or cat he latched on to. I've also seen dogs grab skunks in their mouths, get sprayed directly in the mouth or face, and still kill the skunk. They'll also kill or worry porcupines even though their mouth and muzzle are [b]full[/b] of quills.

Wolfpack, I hunt Feral pigs, weighing OVER 350 pounds with only three dogs.  It takes EXACTLY ONE dog to subdue and KILL the 350+ pound pig, the others just locate the hog.

I have seen many humans that I could subdue with my bare hands.  I have not seen ANY wild boars in my weight class that I felt the same about.  Any creature that is tough enough to subdue and kill a feral hog is MORE than enough creature to kill a human.



Did you mispell brain?




You are going to get into a lot of trouble one day with your 'maybe now, but not then, but in this case, I might if this happened' attitude toward force and deadly force.

Simply put, the dog 'threatened force.'  A3kid perceived himself and his family to be confronted with imminent harm.  At this point, he has every right to defend himself, his family and property (at least in Texas) with the exact amount of force that another 'reasonable person' would choose.  Up to and including both the 'threat' (presentation of the gun) of deadly force and its 'use' (actually using the gun.)

He had no duty, under Texas law to retreat, or to choose another 'option.'

He was threatened, he perceived his response as reasonable, and made the correct decision in the end.  He presented deadly force, but chose not to use it when and only when the threat against him had been resolved.

If he had shot the dog, then told the owner, "Sorry, but I wasn't sure that he was going to hurt us, and I thought about not killing him, and decided, maybe I should anyways just in case, even though maybe he wasn't I just shot him to be sure..."

You are threatened with force (two or four legged is irrelevant), you chosoe the EXACT response necessary and follow through.  Nothing more, nothing less, no second guessing.

TheRedGoat

I'm way too aware.

Blair
fellow Ohioan

Crisis resolved - excellent.

For those who have taken any sort of advanced H2H, you know what the dog knows - you use your WHOLE BODY to strike.  I tip in at 240#, and I get leery about an 80# dog coming my way...  Can I subdue him?  Sure - but only at contact range.  I like having options...

A3kid - you responses were entirely correct.  While OC has effectiveness on dogs (both as a blinding agent and against the dog's smell..) it does nothing to mitigate the dog's hearing, and with that they can still find you.  A dog may not have higher reasoning, but they are not stupid - just simple.  Given the same situation (and the fact that I am almost twice his weight!) I would have reacted the same way...

One small difference - the weapon would have been a Colt M1991A1SS carrying Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok factory loads...  Watch out carrying with handloads, it can work against you in court.  ALWAYS carry factory loads for defense...

FFZ

A3kid- excellent reaction buddy.  I own a very agressive shepard, I don't let her off the leash for that exact reason.  I don't trust her what so ever, she is the epidemy of over-protective and psycotic to boot.  I have seen her in action, once in battle, she feels NO pain.  I am not sure pepper spray would slow her down (if it wasn't for the PETA folks I would test it).

Although she is a liability, it is nice to know she is at home with the wife and kids when I am not.


Wolfpack-I have a 7yr old 85lb Shepard that would like to meet you.[}:D]Although I agree with a lot of your statements, they are true 99% of the time, but when family is involved the 1% is the motivator.  I would not allow MAN or BEAST to even threaten my family.

Ever heard of RABIS?

BOTTOM LINE:

A man has a right to defend himself against any PERCEIVED threat, as long as he was in "Fear for his life, or great bodily injury" he is justified in using any level of force "reasonable" to stop the threat.

A person who wants to kill a German shephard with his bare hands can do it. All one has to do is overcome their fear-factor. I have convinced myself that I CAN kill ANY dog without any foreign objects. If I had to, I would latch on to a dogs throat with my own f@#$ing teeth. I am not afraid. I am not intimidated. But... If given the chance, I would just as soon shoot it.

Don't ask me to test this, plz.  

This shit is funny!

Try wrasslin' a police dog. Or any attack trained dog. Or one of the more aggressive breeds.

Good luck!

Why do you think law enforcement uses dogs?

MOST people couldn't handle a ten pound housecat without getting seriously hurt.

As a paramedic, I have seen first hand what a determined dog can do. Especially gruesome when a child is the victim.

I was concerned for the safety of my wife and child.  You never answered the last question I asked you in my first response to you.  [b]DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN OF YOUR OWN?[/b]


I would be proud to pay that price for defending my wife and child.  In a situation like that, where a decision has to be made [b]right now[/b] I take full responsibility for the choice I make, and the consequences.  We wouldn't even be arguing about this if you would have said "I wouldn't have", instead of "You shouldn't have....."



A stray dog running loose with no collar is [b]not[/b] a human being.  You do as you please, but I ain't going to let my wife or child get chewed up 'cause I figure they'll probably survive the attack.  No fucking way.  I am as much of a dog lover as anybody out there, and I do value their lives.  They are subordinate to human beings, however - and I don't give a shit how you or anybody else feels about it.  A3kid's ROE:  Human being/fear for my life.  Stray dog/bites me or mine - you fucking die, see ya in court if need be.  I'll take my chances.



Look asshole -  [moon] quite trying to apply my ROE for stray dogs to people, alright?  

A3kid -

If memory serves, Wolfpack LONG AGO was determined to be a [:K]

Feeding trolls can be hazardous to your sanity. [:D]

Frankly, if you DID get his approval on anything, I'd be worried 'bout you.

Yep - my 8yo and my puppy are both combatants...



Instead of pulling up your panties, you should remove them, wad them up in a ball and stuff them in your dickholster before any more garbage comes out.

I am a huge dog lover. But I am under no illusion that dogs can't kill humans. They do all of the time. The one that comes to mind is the lesbo in San Francisco about a year or so ago. I also read on this site about a dog that is credited with 14 kills in Vietnam. Probably a German Shepard. Now if fluffy was attacking I would just kick that yapper and that would be that. Kid did the right thing.

Not being afraid is good, but... do you have a plan, or just an attitude?  How, exactly, would you kill a big, aggressive dog without using any foreign objects?  (You'll have a hard time biting the dog's throat if he's already locked onto yours.)

BTW, this type of scenario is one reason why I carry a stout walking stick on my hikes. [stick]

Many years ago, when I was trying to apply for a job I walked into the "wrong " building.
   Inside were a bunch of uniformed cops and a bunch of guys wearing suits.
(this was a warehouse type of building)

One guy was in the middle of the floor wearing a HEAVILY padded outfit.
About 50 yards away was a uniformed officer wkth a german shepard.

The guy wearing the padded suit starts jumping up and down ,waving his arms and yelling

The other guy let the dog go.

That dog hit the padded guy hard enough to knock him down and was doing his best to get a mouthful.

About this time they noticed me.

I was asked to leave.

NO WAY is anyone gonna stand up to a determined full grown German Shepard.

It was rather interesting.

I like dogs. I have always had one or two.

But if attacked I would shoot one in a second.

Excellent observation, oh brilliant one.  What does it have to do with this conversation?



Why do you keep refusing to say whether you have children or not?  I think having your own child in that situation would drastically change your reaction.  Maybe not, but it would make a pretty negative statement about yourself. Most responsible fathers wouldn't gamble on a 1% chance of having a child harmed over a [b]dog[/b], as evidenced by everybody else who's responded..



There was no tall brush in the area and, if you'd bother [b]reading[/b] what I wrote about it, you'd know I was in contact-shot range, with very fragile (135gr. .40 cal HP's) loaded at high velocity.  I doubt the bullet would even have exited.  If it had, it would have been in the dirt 2 1/2 feet in front of me.



I've carried out there for more than 7 years.  This is the first time I've ever had the gun out of the holster.  I'd say you're trying to paint a picture that really ain't true.  WTF said anything about rabbits, anyways?




Try to stay on topic, if you posess the intellect to do so.  Either that or go start your own rabbit thread.  Geez [rolleyes]




Coyotes/strays/coy-dogs are common in the area, pal.  Like I said - put yourself out there with your little girl & see what kind of chances you'd take.