who needs the Taliban?

While the US has been occupied in dismantling the Taliban regieme in Afghanistan, the Saudis have been busy at work entering into alliances with Iraq, Iran, and Syira.

[size=4]Rift grows between
U.S., Saudi Arabia[/size=4]
[b]Riyadh makes peace with Iran, Iraq, distances itself from Washington[/b]

© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

A showdown is brewing between Saudi Arabia and the United States – one that could impact the conduct of the terror war, global oil prices and the prospects for peace in the Middle East.

DEBKA-Net-Weekly says in early December, when America was preoccupied with Afghanistan, Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia's de facto monarch, quietly negotiated a series of secret agreements with the anti-American regimes of Iran and Iraq.

Those pacts effectively gave birth to a new Riyadh-Baghdad-Tehran bloc for the Gulf and Middle East regions. Abdullah believed, DEBKA reports, this reorientation reflected the aspirations common to many younger members of the royal family, some of his army chiefs, a majority of tribal leaders and almost the entire religious establishment. The view they held in common was that the time had come, after half a century of close interdependence, for Saudi Arabia and the United States to go their separate ways. Abdullah's finishing touch: The time has come for Riyadh – not Washington – to be the No. 1 power in the Middle East-Gulf region.

Before Sept. 11, President Bush and Vice President Cheney might not have stood in the way of a partial separation with certain modifications. But after that trauma, both refused to accept Saudi Arabia directly counteracting Washington's interests in the Middle East, the Gulf and Central Asia.

As the rift widens, DEBKA reports, experts see severe instability in store for the Middle East and Gulf in the weeks to come, coupled with unrest and tensions on Saudi Arabia's borders, gaining force as the annual Hajj pilgrimage season approaches next month.

For the first time in Hajj history, Saudi, Iranian and Iraqi intelligence will work together to preserve calm among the millions of pilgrims. They will be overseen from a Saudi air force intelligence command center to be set up in Medina, one of the two holy cities. Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran are on the threshold of creating mutual defense and trade pacts, DEBKA sources say.

Aware of the reconciliation process, the United States was taken aback by the speed at which the three heads of state, Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, Iraq's Saddam Hussein and Iranian President Mohammed Khatami, found mutual understanding.

The trio also agreed to invite Syrian President Bashar Assad to join the new alliance and incorporate the secret Iraqi-Syrian cooperation agreements signed last year in the new mutual defense documents.

One view in U.S. government and intelligence circles holds that the secret treaties have already been formally signed; another that they have not. But the formalities are of little consequence, say DEBKA's sources. The new allies, in the interests of spreading the spirit of détente, have been implementing their understandings in rapid steps. Since last November, the three capitals have been synchronizing their policy-making with regard to Afghanistan, al-Qaida, the Palestinian issue, Syria and Lebanon and their oil strategies.

- continued -

Washington was first alerted to the shifting Gulf sands last August. Word came from Los Angeles, where the Saudi intelligence chief at the time, Prince Turki al-Faysal, was spending the summer. Turki invited leading Saudi businessmen in London, Geneva, Marbella and other places to come and hear his news about Crown Prince Abdullah's three-way alliance scheme. The only senior members of the royal house in opposition were himself and the Saudi defense minister, Prince Sultan bin Abdulaziz.

Some of the Saudi business executives present at the gathering passed the word on to Washington. The Americans received separate corroboration from Sultan's people, German business interests operating in Saudi Arabia and financial groups in London, in which Gulf money is invested.

Three weeks later, Osama bin Laden's suicide bombers struck the World Trade Center. U.S. officials took it for granted that, under the influence of that shock, Prince Abdullah would hold his horses. They also believed that, after the onset of the U.S.-led Afghan War against the Taliban and al-Qaida, Abdullah would have a hard time persuading his fellow princes to endorse the kingdom's rapprochement with the violently anti-American, terror-promoting regimes of Baghdad and Tehran.

"This was a miscalculation," say DEBKA's sources. Abdullah was not deterred. By December, the final drafts of the Saudi-Iraqi-Iran accords were ready for exchanging.

These developments go a long way toward explaining Saudi Arabia's apparently aberrant policies. Most Saudi experts find it hard to believe that Riyadh is fast approaching a formal demand for the withdrawal of American forces from the oil kingdom. Equally incomprehensible are the Saudi authorities' welcome mat for al-Qaida fighters returning from Afghanistan, as well as their willingness to earmark Saudi funds to pay for their secret escape and for the flow of smuggled weapons from Iran to the Middle East, uncovered when Israel intercepted the Karine-A arms ship Jan. 3.

The radical turn in the Saudi ruler's orientation has registered strongly in Washington and produced far-reaching policy revisions. But, according to DEBKA sources, the U.S. administration and intelligence services chiefs are still debating just how far Abdullah will be prepared to go in lining up with the radical line charted in Tehran and Baghdad. One school of thought gaining strength among American policy-makers is that Abdullah may have miscalculated and lost control, only to find himself being dragged after the fact much further than he planned – into involvement in a new Middle East war.

*               *              *

See remainder of article at:[url]www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26198[/url]

Eric The(ApproachingHoofbeats?)Hun[>]:)]

Why am I not surprised?

The Saudis are NOT our friends nor have they EVER been.  They have just looked out for their own narrow interests.  The sooner we withdraw from that shit hole, the better.  

Makes target selection that much easier!  Avoid Israel and destroy everything else.  Take the oil - for free - and level the place!

But...but...DaMan said they were our friends!  What happened??? Oh, my illusions are shattered.
[;)]

thse people are idiots. dont they realize that saddam will try to control everything in the region? sure, the us meddles in their affairs, but when youve got a military dictator, who needs a royal family? what are these guys thinking?

The Saudis in an alliance with Iraq and Iran?  Wow, those are some odd bedfellows indeed...

Apparently, the Saudis saw their choices as one between Islamic fundamentalism and age old Middle Eastern despotism, and chose the latter.

Being Middle Eastern despots themselves, how could they not like Saddam? They just had that horrible disagreement some ten years back, and that was all brought on by the United States and its satanic pawn, Israel.

All is now forgiven!

Eric The(ComeHomeLittleSheba!)Hun[>]:)]

I think Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq combined would make a nice 51st state.  And it would solve our energy problems.

After all, what are neutron bombs for?

Yawn.

Did anyone here REALLY think Saudi Arabia was America's friend???

SA is a member of OPEC, who was trying to bled us to death a year ago by artificially constricting the world petroleum supply.

It is American naivete to think that because we act benevolently that anyone else will.

America has no friends.

Only enemies.

And leeches. I would categorize Israel as a benign leech. They act ONLY in their own best interest, which is cool by me. Its how I would run this country, if they'd let me. And don't bore me with your stories of Israeli "intelligence." Thye haven't told us nothing that would couldn't find out ourselves.

But this really isn't intended as an Israel bash.

Its a call for America to WAKE UP and realize that we are all alone in the world.

We ned to create alliances that serve us FIRST. And other consideration should be secondary. And we need to stop playing world referee.

My $0.02

Post from garandman -

And your source for that statement would be....?

You can find a multitude of statements from folks who are in a position to know that praise Israeli cooperation with the United States.

But you also have to realize that intelligence sources, assistance, and cooperation are matters that are not openly discussed by anyone!

Eric The([i]Comprende?[/i])Hun[>]:)]

Worth BILLIONS of dollars annually??? I think I've even heard hundreds of billions.



Oh. All the experts agree, but none of them are allowed to  tell how Israel actually helps us.

Right.

Trust me. I'm from the government.

Its amusing to watch people who KNOW how evil elements of our gov't are turn into trusting little kittens when it comes to Israel.

Point is, we don't need them. We survived ( I would even contend THRIVED) without Israel prior to 1948. We won TWO, count 'em TWO, world wars WITHOUT a symbolic red cent from Israel.

NO ONE denies that Israel acts FIRST in their own best interest. Secondary consideration is the rest of the world, even their largest benefactor, the USA. Again, I'm cool with that. Its an EXCELLENT way to run a country. Not that some round here will ever figger that out.

Eric -

You've got MORE than a passing interest in Israel. I think its time for full disclosure. What gives??? you are like their biggest fan. And its MORE than a Biblical thing. I know PLENTY of people who beleive the Jews are God's chosen SIMPLY because of their DNA. But your deal is MORE than that. WHY???? Enquiring minds want to know.

In the last couple of weeks I had posted my 'wondering' about what the Arabians were really up to regarding their latest pronouncements about the United States.

I remember saying there's 'something else' but I just can't quite get it.

Think I just found out what that 'something else' was.

[X]

The battle of Good vs. Evil should always be of more than just a passing interest.

You have to choose a side, too.
You've got no choice.
You, more than anyone, should know this, garandman.
Eric does.

Soon after 9/11 I posted that "I believed the trail of terror would lead back (at least financially) to the Saudi's.

I remember posting the Arabians were not our friends.

I remember being surprised by the attacks on my comment and the person who defended my remarks.

Well guys here they are; your friends - not mine - the ARABIANS !!

[X]

It is with more than passing curiosity that I ask this question.

Why should garandman, more than anyone, know this [?]

If only it were that simple.

If only.

As a self-proclaimed student of scripture.

Post from garandman -

Major-Murphy's got me pegged, garandman! I view the world in black and white only (just as He does), and I truly believe that Israel is on the only side that counts in this world.

You may call it Western Civilization, you may call it Christendom, you may simply call it the right side of history, but however you call it, we represent the last great hope of mankind in this world! I believe that Pres. Reagan said that often!

If we fail, then let the next 'Dark Ages' descend upon the face of the earth.

Let women be shackled, let them put on their burkhas and abayas, let them leave school, let them get ready for their clitorectomy at 14, let them suffer at the hands of a despotic husband, without legal redress.

Let the caliphs and the sultans have their weapons, and their harems.

Let Christianity be rooted out and overcome.
(Remember Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, and most of the Middle East were once Christian nations!)

Let a thousand unknown terrors become the reality for our children and grandchildren.

But if we succeed, we'll bring the rest of the world along with us! As we have so far!

Hitler is dead.

Stalin is dead.

Mao is on his deathbed (figuratively).

We are on the cusp of winning the battle for good, but Israel is a stumbling block for some!

Well, Israel is [b]no[/b] stumbling block for me!

Eric The(OhYeah,The[b]USA[/b]UsedToBeAChristianNation,Too!)Hun[>]:)]

That would not include all "self-proclaimed" students of scripture but only garandman [?]

Even though I am neither "Eric" nor "garandman" I have long ago chosen a side.

My side is the United States of America.

[X]

lurker,
I'm not certain all this news is bad.  I've plainly stated before (to "SF" and I believe "stcyr") that my preference is for "proxy wars" and that I believed a deal cut be cut with Saddam.

I still believe a deal is possible.

Let's let this little drama play-out some more.
Again, we don't yet have enough facts.

[X]

And AS a student of Scripture, I can PROVE that since the coming of Christ, God holds no special affinity for ANYONE's DNA.

I challenged ANYONE to debate me on a Scriptural basis on this issue.

Scripturally, the ULTIMATE form of anti-Semitism would be to deceive an Israeli into beleiving that he holds special favor with God SIMPLY becasue of his nationality, causing him thereby to miss his Messiah, to NOT repent and receive Christ as saviour, and to go to hell.

lurker,
to address your ".....what are these guys thinking ?"

I believe most of us would agree that people who are afraid tend to move toward "tunnel-vision" and their abilities to view a wider scope becomes less possible.

Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia are controlled by people who are very afraid - and should be.

[X]

good answer. i just expected the saudis and iranians to be a little more far-sighted in their self-interest. i can be so naive sometimes.

You can find a multitude of statements from folks who are in a position to know that praise Israeli cooperation with the United States.


Eric The([i]Comprende?[/i])Hun[>]:)]
[/quote]

Recently a ship loaded with arms bound for the Palestenians was seized.

Whose intelligence service/s made this seizure possible [?]

[X]

Post from 5subslr5 -

I posted an article that said that US intelligence provided the Israelis with minute by minute 'real time' intelligence on the exact location of the arms ship from Iran to the Red Sea.

That was how Israeli commandos were able to board the ship at sea!

YeeeHaaaawww! Score a coup for US-Israeli cooperation!

Eric The(We'reInTheSameBoat!)Hun[>]:)]

And stick a dagger in that false notion that the US is dependent on Israel for intelligence.

Apparently, we know their business better than they do.

Again, we don't need Israel, so let's move the discussion into the rightness and wrongness of supporting Israel, first from a  Scriptural POV, secondly from a political POV.

I don't trust the Saudis a bit, and am pretty sure we will get what we need/what we can only by pressure of some form or if they believe it coincidentally is in their selfish best interests as well.

That being said, however, I'm not so sure Worldnet/Debka is a reliable source.

(Sorry Eric but I missed your reply.)
(Sorry garandman but I see no use in repeating most (but not all) of your posting.

The Israeli's provide "Humint" to the United States when their (the Israeli) interests are served.

Seemingly, we also provide intelligence to  Israel when their (Israel) interests are served.

ye ha

An earlier respondent accused himself of being naive.
He was not.

[X]

Game. Set. Match.

Well said.

We can all be naive "sometimes."
However, in your case, I'm not sure this is one of those times.

Please remember that less than four months ago the mere mention of the fact the Arabians were not our friends brought out the hounds baying their ignorance.

There are not yet enough facts.  
There's more to this drama than we yet know.

If you get bored you might spend a minute or so thinking of that old, smart guy named "Mack Avellie."  I suspect that sooner rather than later his type thinking will enter this picture.


[X]

Ah, I see DEBKA!  Who are they anyhow?

Weren't they the ones reporting Red Chinese hoards being shipped from the PRC into Afghanistan to help the Taliban and Al Qaeda? [:P]

Yep!  They sure are credible! [;)]

DaMan

According to the book I am reading, our buddy Mack E. Avelli was a strong proponent of the "peasants" beng armed.

Whatever else he was, he was right on that issue.

Yup!  Like our support of the Shah in Iran! [:P]

DaMan

raf, for once we ALMOST agree.  I agree the US is not likely to remove it's military presence from Saudi.  The Saudis will be allowed to protest loudly against the US presence ..... but the US will remain.

Why do the Saudis make all this noise?  Because they must!  They are caught between a rock and a hard place!  The country is on the verge of going "Iran style".... ie. fundamentalists vs. US supported royalists.

DaMan

mojo and DaMan:

In regards to overthrowing the Iranian and Iraqi governments, I bet it would be surprisingly easy.  Remember how there was all this talk of how the Afghanis/Taliban were the new Spartans (National Review), how they have never lost a war, how cold the winter was, how westerners could never defeat suicidal Muslims (by a officer of the Bundweser no less), etc.  It turns out that most of the people there were glad to have us.  

There have been several stories in the media lately about how the Iranian government in particular has little popular support.  For instance, they recently had a mass celebration commemorating one of their victories over the Yankee devils, and only a few people showed up for the parade.  The people there, like anyone else, want to be free.  The governments in Iran and Iraq do not hold elections for the same reason Castro does not:  because most of the people would vote the "wrong" way.  Other than the Nazis, there has never been a authoritarian government which would have survived an election.  I bet after having actually experienced Muslim utopias, most of the people there would be more than willing to go back to the good 'ol days of the Shaw (who was corrupt and a totalitarian socialist anyway).  There is nothing like a theocracy to ruin people's faith in religion.  I know it is easy to assume that the people over there are somehow "different" than us, that they like being ruled by religious fanatics, but if given the chance I bet they will choose to be free, drink Coca-Cola, and watch reruns of "Friends" and other such crap for eight hours a day.

If overthrowing the Iranian and Iraqi governments would be THAT easy and convenient, it would have been done long ago!

DaMan

Sam goes for the Taliban.  No one has tried.  We should try it, we might like it.

But they are with you?
You always talk like you are the authoritive figure when it comes to Israeli.
Don't get me wrong, I think Israeli is probably are closest allie, only cause we fund them to God and back, if we stopped funding them, they wouldn't give a shit about us anymore.
I posted a thread along those lines few days ago, of course knowone responded cause, hell I don't know, this board is like that.
If your not one of the 50 people who basically live on this board, not many people respond back.

Anyways, if it came down to US and Israel, who is Israel going to choose, that's the way I look at it.

I hope I am not going to get pegged as an antisemite or anything, but a lot of my Jewish friends in college supported both US and Israeli interests.  When those interests were congruent, they had no problem.  But when the interests of the US and Israel were opposed, there was a lot of fast talking to show that the US interest was really best served by taking the Israeli position.

Anyway, that is probably a part of the reason why US and Israeli are intertwined.  Racial and cultural affiliation also probably has a lot to do with the US/UK relationship.

A fundamental tenet of intelligence work is to "Consider the source!" (of your information).

In this case (as GLOCKshooter and DaMan pointed out), the source is those renowned teacup readers and chicken's entrail interpreters at DEBKA.

It may be worth noting that the piece contained not a single shred of corroboration from any named source in any of the countries involved – or from anyone at all. The only direct quote was from one of DEBKA's famed 'unnamed sources' who (ironically), was admitting to a previous error in judgement!

The spelling and historical accuracy "Nazis" have struck ...  Eric!  [:P]

Lay off the adult beverages before you post, Eric!

DaMan

Does anyone have a suspicion that Russia, the Euro Union and others (maybe Japan) might ally themselves with the oil field kings and Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc. and trun on the USA?

I suspect eveyone.

"Gays" good for the military??!!!.....  Keep nipping,dude!  It's amusing! [:P]

DaMan

What's amusing is you going back to (and misrepresenting) old arguments now that you've quite obviously LOST this one...