[url]http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=DLBTGWH23Y4X2CRBAEKSFEYKEEARMIWD?type=topnews&StoryID=542053[/url]

[b]Afghan Fight Kills 15 Al Qaeda, Wounds U.S. Soldier[/b]

I wonder how our boys kick so much ass over there if their M16's "jam" so much!!! lol

Training

Element of surprise

Commo

NV (this was a pre-dawn raid)

Kevlar/Spectra

Also, many Afghans, including the ones we are "allied" with often go to a gunfight with only a handful of rounds for their weapons.

Ever notice how a lot of these (Afghan) guys just carry the rifle and don't have packs or LBE.  The mag in the weapon (which often isn't close to full) is often all they have.

JAW

Ever study their "aiming" technique?

Training is everything.

See, someone should have put a bullet into Walker's head and then drape an AK over him.

Because our guns are not slapped together by a group of pakistani turd farmers in some third world toilet.

The AK may be a good design, but most of the versions I have seen are serious piles of crap.

Spoken like a truly educated man.  You sure know your AK's.  Lemme give you a piece of advice... dont judge a book by it's cover.

Your statement SHOULD read: "most of the versions I have seen are serious piles of EXTREMELY RELIABLE IN ALL CONDITIONS crap"

Hey, I love the AR.  A lot.  But even the WORST AK's out there run reliably in almost any condition.

Hey!  I built an AK one time out of Legos and it SUCKED!  It kept losing pieces, and would only fire one "shot" before jamming or needing repair.

I also built an AK out of a potato and an old VCR. It works great with "Wolf" ammo but it jams now and then with commercial stuff. It uses pre-ban mags too.

Got both an AR and an AK.  I absolutely love the Colt 20" HBAR.  It is my match rifle.  Cost me a bundle to trick it out...I'm always looking for another way to make it better.  I even sprung for an ACOG.  It even looks kewl.  I am confident I can usually hit a man-sized target out to 400m without much difficulty.

Having said that...if I were going into SHTF CQB, I think I'd grab the commie gun.  I damn well don't think it is anywhere near as accurate as the AR, but that damn thing always works!  No matter where in the world you are, desert, snow, rain, jungle, the AK never jams, never has a failure to feed, never double feeds, never requires any maintenance (But it does get it!) and always goes BANG!  Truthfully, it sorta looks like a POS in some ways...like with that cheesy safety...but I don't care what it looks like.  It is a classic assault rifle and it is effective at reasonably short ranges.

I read the first hand reports from Thunder Ranch...that state unequivically that the AKs rule because they never fail...but the ARs get their owners whacked because they always seem to have a problem at exactly the wrong time.  I didn't like that at all.

Here is a good example of the esteem the AK is held in by an experienced Marine:  In '91, a USMC major friend of mine was in Kuwait.  During a lull in the fighting, he decided he needed a personal rifle...and not the M-16.  Since he was an LDO with Vietnam experience, he knows his firearms.  His unit encountered a destroyed Iraqi tank with the dead crew and a lot of junk were scattered about, including one AK-47, muzzle buried in the sand.  My grunt friend, understanding the AK and its quirks and attributes, retrieved this rifle, blew out the sand from the action and muzzle, snagged some mags and the LBE off of a dead Iraqi, loaded it up and fired it.  It worked fine and he kept it for the duration.  He still has it...although it has been demilled to get it home.

Kalashnikov was a genius.  That ugly little gun works.

(But I still like my AR better!)

[soapbox]

Sorry, but my AK is a POS.

Uhhh, that story goes around all the time... First, it was in Vietnam, now, in Iraq.  Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.  Really doesn't mean anything either way.

I own both rifles, and while my AR has jammed quite often, my Maadi has never had one problem.  I've also put at least twice as many rounds through it.  I love the AR, but I will stand by my Maadi's performance.

I own a 16" Bushy and I have not experienced any problems whatsoever shooting Q3131A and SA surplus ammo.  With my old and tired eyes I average 2 1/2" at 100 meters from sandbags.  My 19 year old son has a Romanian SAR1.  That gun can shoot all day long (wolf) without a single hiccup whatsoever, but shoots 3" to 4" groups at 100 meters.  I enjoy both, but in a SHTF situation I would prefer my Bushy (and my Glock).

Well a rifle is only good if you can hit something with it.

I've heard of people getting 2" groups out of their AK's, but I have yet to see it. And I've owned a few AK's. Generally, 4" or bigger at 100 yards is average.


I for one am not that proficient with an AK, especially with those crappy sites. Sure it may go bang everytime, that don't count for much if the bullet doesn't go where I want it.

While I admit the AR15/M16 is not as forgiving as the AK, I myself am able to shoot MUCH better with one compared to an AK. They work so well for me, it's like an extension of myself. I can't say the same for the AK.

And if you shoot the right ammo, and use good mags you'll be just fine.






And by the way, I've seen AK's jam.  

What "story"?

Why would you doubt my veracity?  We both served at the same time.  We were both LDOs (former enlisted E-7s) with decades of service under our belts.  We both retired shortly after the Gulf War.  I can't speak for others, or about your reference to Vietnam, but I can say that his AK is real, he did retrieve it from a dead Iraqi tanker and it now resides in the Commonwealth of Virginia.  [>:/]

What is an LDO much less a Maj LDO doing forward?  Unless things have changed a lot, LDO mostly are in CSS MOS's in CSS units.

Concur with every word.

I was pondering this thread a bit and I tried to remember if my M-16 gave me problems in the mid-70's.  I can't remember it ever failing me.  My mouse gun gives me problems occasionally, but I suspect that is due to a couple of after market mags and poor shooting habits.  Damn thing will drive tacks at 100m though...and the AK will get at best 4 MOA as you said.  On the other hand, as I said, for eye-ball-to-eyeball CQB, I think I'd like to have the AK.

i suppose anything is possible, but I have a few questions. First, how does an E-7 become a major? I can't imagine anyone saying,  "I think I'l just dump the past 15 years of service and start all over as a butterbar"  Second, let's be charitable and figure your friend made in at the very end of the Vietnam war, 1972/73. (counting basic etc) To be active in 1991 is over 18 years. At the very least,  he's looking at his twenty year letter. Next, it was a field grade offense to carry or pick up battlefield weapons. I don't really think a Major on the eve of retirement would trash it all for a POS wall hanger. A Lt Col from Ft Stewart lost everything (Plus jail time) over a Dragunov,  I don't think your major would have been any different. Lastly, what does this prove?  My trinkets from that time are an Russian/Iraqi helmet and a piece of SCUD missle that is carved with the names of the guys in my team.  I don't assume that this makes them superior to the Kevlar and the Patriot.  

Beats the hell outta me.  I'm not sure what his MOS was...but I think it was Hawk missile battery related.  I understand he was to the west of Kuwait City, dug in on the Saudi side of the border.  He told me that an Iraqi column of about thirty tanks and other vehicles was headed their way and that he received the order to bug out since all he had was light infantry with a few light AT weapons.  He said he tried calling in air without success until they could actually see the dust column and the specks of the approaching Iraqi tanks.  At that moment, two AF A-10s showed up, reported for duty and took care of the Iraqi column.  He said the AF pilots made two passes each...first with their bombs, then with the cannon.  After the smoke cleared, he could see the few survivors going the other way.  At that point, he said they went [very carefully] forward to check on the enemy column.  That is when he found the AK.
Sounded plausible to me.  [:)]

That describes my electric can opener, as well.  It's not very accurate, either.

Eddie

John
LDOs are Marine Warrant officers that receive commissions and serve in roles that normally filled by Commissioned Officers, but are limited to technically not being able to command, however I have seen LDOs in FSSG units command.

Wouldn't make sense to have a HAWK units forward, since they are always a wing asset and are placed in such a way that their missile envelope protects air fields.  If I remember right, that sounds like what happen at Ras El Kafji, but it was ANGLICO, a few scout snipers and recon Marines that used air and Arty to destroy the enemy forces, don't think many non-combat arms got far enough forward to see anything but prisoners or prior looted gear, until after the ground war ended.

Johninaustin,

Lets see if I can answer your questions.

1.  As to how he became a major:  First, it did take a long time.  Both of us were LDOs and it took us many years to achieve our final ranks (USMC major for him...Navy LT for me.)  And yes, each of us made it rather late in our careers and we each spent many years past our "20 year letter" point.  I guess we did "dump" all those enlisted years...but it was worth it.  Actually, hundreds of enlisted men and women get selected every year for these programs.

LDOs in the Navy and Marine Corps are technical specialists.  Their primary reason for their existence is to support the unrestricted line officer (URL) community by filling those unique technical billets that require skills that would require far too long a training pipeline for URLs.  LDO ranks and promotion points (year in rank) are the same as URLs.  The subspecialty codes are what differentiate an LDO from a URL officer (and generally his age of course!).  Contrary to popular belief, certain LDOs can and do succeed to command at sea and to command of USMC units.

LDOs and warrant officers are both commissioned from the enlisted ranks.  Whether you are commissioned as a warrant or as an LDO, is determined by your rank at the date of selection.

LDOs are commissioned from two sources:  From the enlisted ranks or from the warrant officer ranks.
 If an E-6 is selected for LDO, he is commissioned as a second lieutenant or ensign.  (This hot runner usually gets selected around the 12-14 year point and has a long commissioned life ahead.)
 Enlisted personnel serving as E-7s may apply for a regular commission as a chief warrant officer.  If selected, they will be commissioned as a CWO-2.  (This officer typically has several years of service already and has committed to do the max.).  When I was serving, by law a chief warrant/LDO had to serve at least 10 years to retire with his commissioned rank.  Otherwise he reverted to his highest enlisted rank.)

 Chief warrant officers are eligible to compete for the LDO program.  If selected, CWO-3s will be commissioned as a first lieutenant or lieutenant junior grade.  This one-grade jump over the former E-6s is designed to prevent rank inversion problems.  That is the path that I took...from E-7 to CWO-2, got promoted to CWO-3, then applied and was selected for the LDO program as a LTjg.  I had 17 years in when I was commissioned the first time as a CWO-2 (It took me a long time to make chief!).  I spent another 11 years in the Navy after being commissioned.  I am not aware of the career path my Marine friend took.  I do know he retired with about thirty years service also, as a major, LDO.

As to the field grade offense for bringing an AK out of country...I can't argue that point...nor will I try.  I can only tell you what my eyes have seen.  I do know this...he did have to have it completely dimilitarized before transporting it home.

WRT your final question...what does "IT" prove?  Not sure what you mean by "prove" and "it".  Not trying to prove anything.

Finally, I'm not sure I understand the analogy of the materials you returned with and the comparison you are drawing.

Hope this helps...

[>:/]

Good point...I'll have to ask him about that.

Hey, I saw that on McGeyver!

Anyone hear of ZM weapons and their reported reliability - 3K rounds w/o a single FTF/FTE?

Here's a reply I recently got from Allen Zitta (ZM designer) when I asked him why his ZM system is not used by the US-MIL

Here's an article on the weapon: [url]http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0301ftr.html[/url]

This AR derivative seems to work well. Having said that, I have read reports of standard AR's taking up to [b]5K rounds w/o failure[/b]. A former VN Recondo school instructor told me that his CAR-15 was always reliable in the field.

It's not like the AK's accuracy is so completely crappy...

We're talking about a 2" group at 100 yards vs a 3.5-4" group at 100 yards.  That's not exactly some mind blowingly huge difference.  Now all of a sudden the AK is only good to 25 yards or something?  My run of the mill Norinco MAK90 shoots 3ish inch groups all day long at 100 yards.  And I don't even get all serious with it, just shooting cheap ammo for fun...

If you have a decent AK, it isn't going to let you down at ranges out to 150 yards at least, either by jamming or by letting you down accuracy wise...  Sure you won't be shooting guns out people's hands or some such bunk, but you won't be missing a solid middle chest shot either...

And there's always AKs in other calibers, '74s in 5.45 and good models chambered in .223 are just as reliable as the standard 7.62x39 AK, yet are more accurate.  Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

He was in the Marine Corp and he was in Air Defense Artillary,  and the gun he picked up from the dead Iraqi was a Czech under folder.  I also know this gentleman and he is no liar.






BTW AR-15's are for shit when it comes to a true combat weapon.  Kalashnikov took one of his rifles out into the woods in Russia and left it there for a year.  Came back and picked it up and fired it with out a jam, try that with a AR.  They might not look pretty but the still spit lead down range which is what they were designed for.  I own both but I will not try to fool myself into thinking the AR-15 is the be all end all weapon.  I had a Chinese MAK-90 with East German mags and  Bulgarian ammo and it still didn't jam.  They are perfect for the so-called peasant armies who don't have time to do regular maintainence on their weapons.  A farmer keeps his gun in the rice patty until he needs it and then he grabs it and goes.  For a modernized army such as ours the AR-15 is just fine.  The AK-47 helped put 58,000 of our brothers in the ground in Vietnam so don't underestimate it's effectiveness, or its reliablity, which I have yet to see an AR as reliable.  So don't start writing saying you have seen one or you own an AR as reliable, because thats just HORSESHIT!  I will put my AK up against any AR-15 out their, we'll see which one jams first.  Just keep on shooting, no cleaning in between, no cleaning at all.  We'll see which one jams first.


ROCK ON!

7_62, question for you, when has the Marine Corps referred to air defense as air defense artillery, or is that your term? I have only heard army types call it that since, in Vietnam they combined air defense and artillery. Also why has no one in the Marine Corps, a service that lives on it lore, heard of an air defense officer calling an in extremis air strike that took out around 30 vehicles? I'm pretty sure if someone knew about it, they would have been an example used at TBS to keep everyones' attention in the CAS classes, they always tried to give real world examples of why everyone, even those in non-combat arms MOS should know the info. Also what award did he get for it, I know a current LtCol that got a silver star for almost the exact thing, but he was at Ras El Kafji.

[left]MY experiences with AK's goes when i was in the military we trained with them and i loved them ever sence, now I had a chance to get AK's witch are two MAK90's, one is NIB never been fired the other is my personal gun i had for seven year's this gun i can depend my life on any day any time of the year anywere!(This is no Bullshit) i have fired rusty
"Dangerous" ammo through my shooter Without one single FTF/FTE. now i bought a preban Eagle Arms ar15 while very reliable; one day i was shooting UMC ammo "found out some were sized wrong" locked the gun up tighter than a drum
/Also happened with my bushmaster too. well i stick umc ammo through my reloading press to make shure there seated properly. well i know you should only use quality ammo through your guns but remember these weapons were designed for Combat mean's they should take any ammo possible. BTW: Ive found UMC with loose bullits and not sized all the way. now my bushmaster is very reliable  but if it ever came down to having to bury my guns and ammo like alot of peasents do in other countries the ammo and guns will take abuse. when i shot my M16 ive found most jams are magazine related anyways, for me that is.

One more point to make it is not the gun that
is winning the battles its the special Forces
there good at what they do. NUFF SAID!! [/left]

During the Gulf war our platoon leader found an AK that was packed full of sand. Having never fired an AK, our 1SG being a Vietnam vet showed
us how to field strip and reassemble the weapon.
We keep it the duration of our stay in Iraq and Kuwait. But before we returned to Saudi we turned it over to Squadron HQ as a war trophy to be placed in the 1st AD museum in Germany. As far as finding a AK and returning to the states with a AK, our whole unit was warned that if we were caught trying to smuggle a weapon or parts of a weapon we would be placed at the end of the line for rotation back to Germany. Before we left KKMC MP's searched our belongings for weapons and we were given the opertunity to dump our "loot" in a amnesty box.We found alot of weapons, all were destroyed with axe's from our vehicle OVM's. Breaks my heart now to think about it. I did manage to keep as war trophy's a brand new in wrap Iraqi gas mask and flag, and alot of cool memories.

Sgt. Quib
D Trp. 1/1 CAV 1st AD
Aero Scout Platoon

Those who say the AR isn't reliable doesn't know what they are talking about!  I've put MANY thousands of rounds through my Pre-ban Bushy with the only jams from USA mags (I didn't know any better at the time)  Once I chucked those mags it has been perfectly reliable.  And guess what, I mainly use S&B steel cased ammo.  The cheapest stuff I find!  Wolf, SA stuff, you name it and NEVER a jam!!  And how often does it get cleaned?  Not often!  I stuck with an all Mil Spec rifle. No problems there!!

I have a Bushmaster 20" VMatch and an OA pre-ban CAR.  Both are very reliable and accurate, however, I attribute this to careful and meticulous cleaning.  If you don't keep your weapon clean, it's going to let you down in one way or another.

I also have three AK-74's.  The Romanian SAR-2 models.  One of these was assembled very well and shoots great (read accurate) out of the box with Wolf ammo (3"@100).  The other two I wasn't satisfied with their assembly or the finish.  I sent these to AZEX Arms for reassembly and finish.  I've known Derek since he used to be a PA boy when we were kids.  I haven't found anyone who can fix up and refinish a thrown together weapon like he can.  He refinished and ran a reliability package on a POS CIA L1A1 I picked up in 1995.  The finished product is one of my best battle rifles now.

My point is, everyone should realize that both weapons have their good and bad points.  If you want the bolt action accuracy of a tuned AR, buy one.  If you want to be able to consistently fire on the range using any surplus ammo you find with no FTE/FTF, you get the SAR/AK, but you better also hope that you get one that was correctly assembled and not thrown together like the ones coming from FAC right now.

That's my .02 cents.

I guess this is becoming an issue of symantics and thorny details.  I didn't mean to imply my friend was "calling in an airstrike".  I stated he and his people were prepping to bug out [and leaving a minimal rear guard to allow the balance of his personnel to make it out in order] while he called for help on the radio.  If that is your interperetation of "calling in", then so be it.  That is what he related to us over a beer as he explained the origin of the AK he has in his possession.  I have no reason to doubt this decorated brother officer and gentleman.  As to the exact circumstances, I was not there...nor was 7_62 gunner.  We are basing our statements (at least I am) here on what was related to us.

By your queries and statements, you appear to be a Marine, either active, reserve, or currently inactive due to age or EOS, possibly even a brother officer.

I will not argue the finer points of this man's bio with you.  It would be presumptuous of me to either confirm or deny his veracity.  I simple will relate what he has told us.  Should you desire to speak with this guy...I think I can link you two up.  I'm satisfied that his story is true...and I'm sure he'd be glad to provide the details.  If you are not a Marine...well, then I think the point is essentially moot.

WRT "what award did he get"?  I have no idea.  Entirely possible he got nothing.  I never asked.  Didn't seem to be appropriate at the moment.

As to "air defense artillery"...again, ultra fine points.  I doubt that 7_62 gunner (former Army tanker) knows the difference between AAA and the correct name for a Hawk missile battery.  Hair splitting for no purpose here.

Bottom line on this is that we have strayed from the essential point of the thread anyway:  AK vs. AR.  That is the fun part...this is not.

My last statement on this sidebar.

[argue]

WADR,
The LDO.

Dude, just a word of warning on that wolf .223.  I have personally seen several AR's have cases stuck in them because of the laquer they put on that ammo.  If you are going to shoot that stuff in an AK it's fine, but in an AR as soon as the chamber heats up alot that laquer will coat the inside of your chamber and cases will stick.  Keep your AR REALLY clean.

ROCK ON!

Air Defense Artillery is a term I used, because I was in the Army.  I don't know if he got a medal or not, but he was there.

The other gentleman was mistaken, he did not return with it for himself.  It was demilled and is now hanging over the door of some battalion HQ on some Marine base some where.  He told me where but I forgot.  I think it was in Louisiana.

LWilde, interesting info.  I'm Army,  once you hit E5 you're locked into the NCO corps.  You do have a possibility at Warrant, but only in certain technical fields such as avation, CID, etc. I'm headed for  thirty myself, will hit E-8 here in about another 6 months.  We were activated (along with units from Illinois and Indiana) after 9/11 to serve as MP's here on FT Hood. The units we replaced are now at Guantanamo.  To be honest, we're not really accomplishing much, but at least it's piling up those retirement points.  My point on equipment is, you're friend made a battlefield pickup.  That's fine,  but it does not make the AK a superior weapon over anything else. My great uncle has a Luger he found on a trash heap in Normandy. Complete leather rig, cleaning kit, and spare Navy barrel. Shot the heck out of it the whole time overseas, said it never jammed. With that in mind, does it make sense to state that the Luger is a better weapon than the 1911A1?      

Lwilde
Yes I am currently a Marine.  My whole point is often you here people who talk about battlefield pick ups, etc.  Sometimes it is more embellishment than anything else.

1.  Congrats on your imminent promotion...and YES...you ARE doing a hell of a lot to defend your country.  Just wearing the uniform, standing a post somewhere is important.  You don't have to be in the bush sending rounds downrange to be an important part of your country's defense establishment.

2.  Hmmmmm...Luger better than a 1911?  Now THAT is fodder for another thread.  FWIW...I think not.  1911 probably best combat pistol ever...at least for it's time.

[soapbox]