How did they run M16a1's FULL AUTO in Vietnam without melting the barrel?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How did they run M16a1's FULL AUTO in Vietnam without melting the barrel? (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:05:58 PM EDT

seriously

how can you run the m16a1 on full auto without it melting down.

Just ran 3 30rd mags through my a1 clone as fast as I could pull.

The barrel on that thing is so light, it heated up badly.

How could the a1's take that kind of abuse?

Seems like every video I've seen of real footage of Vietnam, guys are running 20rd mags back to back to back++++++++++++++++++ on full auto.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:06:53 PM EDT

[#1]

chrome lined barrels?

IDK, but i think you would lose a gas tube before you would melt a barrel

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:07:10 PM EDT

[#2]

Simple. Don't touch the barrel.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:07:35 PM EDT

[#3]

So they heat up, you don't think AK barrels do also?

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:08:23 PM EDT

[#4]

They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:08:30 PM EDT

[#5]

First, who says some didn't ruin barrels? Second, I'd guess that most weren't ruined because most of the engagements were very, very short.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:08:40 PM EDT

[#6]

light barrels heat up faster, but they also cool faster.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:08:41 PM EDT

[#7]

The blood of the enemy helps cool the barrel.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:10:08 PM EDT

[#8]

Anyone feel undergunned in SHTF with an AR a1 clone?

The damn barrel is so skinny.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:10:33 PM EDT

[#9]

It;s not like they ran full auto, mag after mag, all the time.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:10:52 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:10:54 PM EDT

[#11]

My Grandpa said that they could make the barrel(s?) on the 20mm cannon glow if they just dumped all the ammo they had with it. I think it was something like 400rds. It may have been bad for them, but he said the rifling was still there afterwards. Dumping all the rounds at once wasnt standard procedure, but sometimes guns would malfunction and not stop shooting untill they ran out of ammo. So if he felt like just dumping the ammo all in one burst he would just holler out that it was malfunctioning.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:11:27 PM EDT

[#12]

I've seen several red hot barrels-and I mean actually glowing red. Gas tubes go bye bye before the barrel deforms.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:11:47 PM EDT

[#13]

The government ran documented tests (results presented in Black Rifle II) where they ran M4 barrels to failure. It consistantly took 600+ rounds fired full auto using 30 rd magazines as fast as the weapon could be reloaded, to cause a failure (barrel blow-out). They were investigating field problems where barrels had blow out during training/combat. I think the report indicated that the barrel material temp had to get up around 1400 F before it would fail. The barrels blew out just aft of the front sight, under the handguard. These were tests so no one was hurt, but from the pics it could have really ruined someone's day. They also noted at at 150 rds fired full auto, rounds would "cook off" if left in the hot chamber.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:12:11 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:12:51 PM EDT

[#15]

The steel has a lot higher temperature limit than you do...

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:13:39 PM EDT

[#16]

I remember seeing a night time video of an AK shooting at full auto and some people lighting up their cigs when it got hot.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:13:53 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Agreed. I'll bet he tells that to everyone at the gun store/show too...or at least I'll bet that's where he heard it.

Thanks for contributing Keith.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:14:01 PM EDT

[#18]

I have an AK.

Gun's have problems?

What?

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:16:12 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

+1

It was NOT ment for a support by fire role. It was made more for as a precision shooting weapon. The Machine gun suppresses the enemy and the riflemen flanks the enemy position while they are pinned down.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:16:58 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I have an AK.

Gun's have problems?

What?

I have an AK also.

It doesn't heat up nearly as bad as this a1 does.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:18:30 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

Thanks for contributing to the thread.

+1 the post you knock wasn't 'stupid'. The rifle does shit where it eats. There was some 'powder issue' as well, if I recall correctly.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:20:22 PM EDT

[#22]

Tag

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:20:52 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
So they heat up, you don't think AK barrels do also?

Touch a brake rotor after driving 5 miles. Ask me how I know

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:21:15 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

+1

It was NOT ment for a support by fire role. It was made more for as a precision shooting weapon. The Machine gun suppresses the enemy and the riflemen flanks the enemy position while they are pinned down.

+1 - people forget the role of accurate semi autos

machine guns make your target pinned down and temporarily immobile. Accurate rifle fire, makes your target permanently immobile and worm food.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:21:34 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:22:43 PM EDT

[#26]

They did burn out barrels, lots of them. Unit armorers would simply replace the barrel or send the rifle off for rebuild and issue the troop another one. There was no shortage of rifles. The Govt. bought them by the millions.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:25:41 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

Stupid post of the week.

Not to mention the OP.

The M16 series is a RIFLE, not a MACHINE GUN. Rifle fire is precision and the M16 is capable of sustained fire around 45 rounds a minute. AIMED fire.

+1

It was NOT ment for a support by fire role. It was made more for as a precision shooting weapon. The Machine gun suppresses the enemy and the riflemen flanks the enemy position while they are pinned down.

What was ment and what was real are 2 different things. See some of the VN videos of the firefights. Watch the fun switch in action. BTW, the Hummer was never MENT to be an armored vehicle either.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:29:48 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Early lots of WC-844 had excessive calcium carbonate which clogged gas tubes. It wasn't fouling in the chamber, that was CORROSION since the chamber wasn't chrome plated because of headspace reasons and accurate plating of the chamber wasn't possible then.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:30:00 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So they heat up, you don't think AK barrels do also?

Touch a brake rotor after driving 5 miles. Ask me how I know

Betcha never realized your hand could move that fast did you?

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:45:38 PM EDT

[#30]

M-60 gunners were known to carry around a spare barrel.

I have read stories that M-16 rifles would have the oil dumped down the barrel to try and cool them down so they could get back in the fight.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:47:54 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
M-60 gunners were known to carry around a spare barrel.

I have read stories that M-16 rifles would have the oil dumped down the barrel to try and cool them down so they could get back in the fight.

We ALWAYS humped around a spare 60 barrel.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:49:18 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
+1 the post you knock wasn't 'stupid'. The rifle does shit where it eats. There was some 'powder issue' as well, if I recall correctly.

Please don't repeat this BS. You don't understand how the AR system works, or really how firearms in general work, if you believe this.

We just had a rather exhaustive thread a few days ago regarding the Vietnam era reliability problems, which had nothing do with rifles "shitting" anywhere, and little to do with powder.

To answer the OP's question, a rifle is not a machine gun. It's not intended for continuous automatic fire. To go along with that, the rifle will probably shoot just fine well into the number of magazines that a rifleman is likely to be carrying. But yes, they did burn out barrels, just as they burned out M60 barrels and probably every other type of firearm that's ever been used in combat in wars before and since.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:50:38 PM EDT

[#33]

Barrels don't get hot. That's just an urban legend.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:51:59 PM EDT

[#34]

we just pissed in the reciever....

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:53:41 PM EDT

[#35]

I've done multiple mag dumps with an M16A1. Once I put over 500 rounds down range in maybe 10 minutes.

The barrel gets hot, but it takes a LOT to get it dangerously so.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:53:53 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

M-60 gunners were known to carry around a spare barrel.

I have read stories that M-16 rifles would have the oil dumped down the barrel to try and cool them down so they could get back in the fight.

We ALWAYS humped around a spare 60 barrel.

I had a spare for my M2 HB. Like a wrecking bar. I hated mounting that bitch on the ring mount by myself. And having to drag the tripod/T&E in my deuce. But when we qualified

. The M2 is a great comfort to have around for long range perimeter defense.

Barrel heat is from the 5000 F fire, not friction. After the bullet engraves, there is very little friction.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:54:21 PM EDT

[#37]

I doubt the average ammunition load-out was enough to wreck the barrel.

Posted: 6/17/2009 6:56:28 PM EDT

[#38]

Guys fried M16 barrels in Viet Nam and every other war where full auto weapons were in use.
Guys managed to fry barrels on M2 carbines, BARs, and Browning machineguns in WW2 and Korea too.

Anytime you have a malfunction that can't be easily corrected you dump the weapon and go to something else.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:02:13 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Early lots of WC-844 had excessive calcium carbonate which clogged gas tubes. It wasn't fouling in the chamber, that was CORROSION since the chamber wasn't chrome plated because of headspace reasons and accurate plating of the chamber wasn't possible then.

Sure it was, the Soviets had been chome lining the chamber and barrels barrels of AK47s by 1951. This style of plating was more than adequate in a non precision rifle. I suspect it was a cost saving measure more than anything...

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:02:14 PM EDT

[#40]

Never done it with ball, but dumped multiple magazines of blanks through an M16A1 until the gas tube started glowing nicely... Fortunately, I didn't have to clean that one :-)

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:03:50 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
The blood of the enemy helps cool the barrel.

THIS

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:05:50 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Early lots of WC-844 had excessive calcium carbonate which clogged gas tubes. It wasn't fouling in the chamber, that was CORROSION since the chamber wasn't chrome plated because of headspace reasons and accurate plating of the chamber wasn't possible then.

Sure it was, the Soviets had been chome lining the chamber and barrels barrels of AK47s by 1951. This style of plating was more than adequate in a non precision rifle. I suspect it was a cost saving measure more than anything...

There is a bit more of a difference between the bore and chamber on the 5.56 than 7.62. This is electroplating, done with a circulating bath and it is highly geometry controlled. Getting an even plating on both was tricky, it wanted to build up on the end of the chamber. The process is detailed and complex.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:05:56 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Early lots of WC-844 had excessive calcium carbonate which clogged gas tubes. It wasn't fouling in the chamber, that was CORROSION since the chamber wasn't chrome plated because of headspace reasons and accurate plating of the chamber wasn't possible then.

Sure it was, the Soviets had been chome lining the chamber and barrels barrels of AK47s by 1951. This style of plating was more than adequate in a non precision rifle. I suspect it was a cost saving measure more than anything...

Not to mention the Japanese were doing it in WW2 with their rifles.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:08:09 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They weren't using the powder you are using in the cartridges in Vietnam. They were using a lower grade powder that was plugging up the rifle that poops where it eats.

I bet due to the powder difference there was a temperature difference.

This was the change from IMR 8208 to the Winchester ball powder (748ish, I believe)

The ball powder burned hotter, and created more pressure (faster ROF and bolt velocity), and more carbon than the 8208.

Both of these powders are still available today (sort of).

Early lots of WC-844 had excessive calcium carbonate which clogged gas tubes. It wasn't fouling in the chamber, that was CORROSION since the chamber wasn't chrome plated because of headspace reasons and accurate plating of the chamber wasn't possible then.

Sure it was, the Soviets had been chome lining the chamber and barrels barrels of AK47s by 1951. This style of plating was more than adequate in a non precision rifle. I suspect it was a cost saving measure more than anything...

Not to mention the Japanese were doing it in WW2 with their rifles.

Que? You'll need to quote that source, because if that was the case, we wouldn't have the number of sewer pipe Arisaka's we have...

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:10:04 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
+1 the post you knock wasn't 'stupid'. The rifle does shit where it eats. There was some 'powder issue' as well, if I recall correctly.

Please don't repeat this BS. You don't understand how the AR system works, or really how firearms in general work, if you believe this.

We just had a rather exhaustive thread a few days ago regarding the Vietnam era reliability problems, which had nothing do with rifles "shitting" anywhere, and little to do with powder.

To answer the OP's question, a rifle is not a machine gun. It's not intended for continuous automatic fire. To go along with that, the rifle will probably shoot just fine well into the number of magazines that a rifleman is likely to be carrying. But yes, they did burn out barrels, just as they burned out M60 barrels and probably every other type of firearm that's ever been used in combat in wars before and since.

I do, in fact, understand how the system works.
I didn't say the 'shit where you eat' is necessarily the problem in Vietnam era mishaps, but direct impingement is what I'm discussing.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:13:00 PM EDT

[#46]

See..what you do is remove the barrell and stuff some pot in one end and use a cigarette lighter to light the...

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:15:42 PM EDT

[#47]

if it eats where it shits, then are you saying the gasses are expelled into the chamber? because if your not, then it doesn't eat where it shits. If you are saying that, then no, you don't know how it works

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:15:55 PM EDT

[#48]

Dad was in the 3/5 Marines in 66-67 in Vietnam. He said they held up to incredible abuse but he never burned out a barrel of an M16, and he saw lots and lots of action. They did toast M60 barrels however.

Think about it, the average grunt could not carry enough ammo on his person to burn out his barrel. If he did burn through all his ammo and got more from battlefield pickups off the wounded, there were probably pauses in firing, going to grenades, calling in airstrikes, etc. It wasn't just sustained mag after mag after mag after mag.

I personally believe Stoner got the barrel profile right the first time, and the original happy switch is the correct one. YMMV.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:17:27 PM EDT

[#49]

The early M16s jammed before things got too hot.

Posted: 6/17/2009 7:19:26 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Anyone feel undergunned in SHTF with an AR a1 clone?

The damn barrel is so skinny.

That's my my theory. I fuggin hate a spaghetti barrel. Best damned upgrade they ever did was to heavy the barrel. I don't even like mine cut down underneath the handguards. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. A barrel won't melt like a popsicle, but I'll bet it was whipping around all over the fucking place while they were shooting. I don't even like the profile on my M1A because of the lightness of it. Once it heats up it starts whipping. Some people say I need to get the barrel bedded but I'd really rather have a heavy barrel if it didnn't mean having to get a new stock and all kinds of other shit involved in it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How did they run M16a1's FULL AUTO in Vietnam without melting the barrel? (Page 1 of 2)

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