1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will not be for Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq and Afghanistan no longer exist. They have been completely forgotten by the populace, the media and the government. They served their purpose of destroying Bush and the Republicans and now they are no longer important. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Illegals who committed crimes other than illegally entering the country would have been caught and prosecuted as they are now, as they have been, just as with any other criminal. Had immigration reform moved forward under Bush and the Republican congress then there would have eventually been funding for securing the border (which had already been approved), at least there would have been a chance. The worst tragedy is that the Republicans lost any chance of winning the loyalty of the Mexicans who would have become voters if immigration reform and amnesty had passed. In truth, the Mexicans Immigrants are natural allies for the Republican party. They believe in family values, they are hard working, they are socially conservative and they like guns. The Republicans listened to conservative voters who demanded that amnesty and immigration reform be defeated, demanded that border security come first and demanded that the immigration problem be solved by deportation. Despite the Republicans caving to their voter's demands, conservative voters stayed home on election day in November 2006 and allowed the Democrats to use their propaganda against Iraq to destroy the Republican majorities in both houses of Congress. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future. Given the populations of illegal aliens in states like Texas, Arizona and Oklahoma, the Democrats may even be able to turn the tide in these states to the left and get Democrats to unseat traditionally conservative state governments. It was stupid and shortsighted to opposed immigration reform and amnesty, and now we will lose everything. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.

3. The payout of bonuses to AIG executives or ANY executive from any company that received TARP funding was a HUGE mistake, and the line that they had to be paid due to contractual obligations which would have resulted in court battles if violated is a bald faced lie. Why? Because no jury anywhere in this country would have awarded a single plug nickel to any executive of any company that would have gone bankrupt if not for TARP funding. The American people wanted these companies to go bankrupt and the anger at the execs was damn near at pitchfork and torches levels. These execs were paid their bonuses as a result of cronyism between government and the "private sector".

4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on. They are degreed gangsters and they exercise the same tactics as the freakin' mafia. They loan themselves money that they never repay while driving the company into the ground (K-Mart), the use extortion and threats to stop out competition (Microsoft), they extort their own employees (Enron) and they make up fraudulent records to try and throw everyone off of the trail (take your pick). Capitalism is dead, what is going on in Corporate America is nothing short of organized crime.

5. There is no such thing as a "private sector" in this country and it has not existed for a very long time. The so-called "private sector" has been interwoven with government for decades. The system of lobbying, cronyism, bribery, regulation and legislation have made corporate interests and the interests of politicians one and the same. For proof just look to the bankruptcy reform act (a bill law passed by the congress despite popular objection because the credit card companies lobbied for it very, very hard during the height of the bankruptcy wave from 2000-2006) or the Chrysler and GM bankruptcy dealership closings (dealers with political allies getting to keep their businesses, dealers belonging to political enemies of the current regime being closed without appeal, explanation or recourse).

6. The problems in point number 5 did not begin with the Obama Administration.

7. Despite all of the unwavering support for the military on this board and in this country, standing armies are still a threat to liberty. Armies obey the orders of those who command the army and our military is no different. If there were to ever be a move by the people against the government, or conversely a move by the government against the people then I have no doubt that the US military would side with the government. For proof, one only needs to look to New Orleans. Oklahoma National Guard along with out of state police departments sent to help with the Katrina cleanup effort and to restore order did confiscate weapons from law abiding civilians without anything more than an order from the chief of police to do so. Oklahoma National Guardsmen (not even PROFESSIONAL soldiers, but "Citizen Soldiers") even admitted to cameras for ABC news that they were primed to shoot and kill Americans on the streets of New Orleans if they refused to cooperate with or resisted the National Guard. If you want proof of this then just ask our very own Bama-Shooter. He was there, he saw it with his own eyes and he has confirmed this to have been the case on several occasions. I support our troops when they are defending our freedoms overseas and fighting to protect our security from our enemies, but I remain skeptical about the willingness of the average American soldier to choose loyalty to the people of this nation over loyalty to the government of this nation.

They say that whenever you speak the truth you should have one foot in a stirrup. Flame suit on!

Tag to read all of that later.

This should be good.

Seems accurate enough.

Especially on immigration. We need the 'worker bees' but haven't adequately provided enough reform in the way of work visas.

Too long.

Meh.  People say stuff ARFcom doesn't like every day.  Not many people bother to point it out in the thread title though.

Christ, you love you see yourself talk.

Conjecture and what if's, but interesting thoughts nonetheless.

This

Steve you going back to your old attention whore days fast.

Good arguments.



This ought to be a lively discussion.



I agree on most of your points too.

Not enough pictures, c'mon man.



Reading skills are limited here.

In on 1, before the shit storm.

I'm not reading all that.

I agree with most of that... with the exception of the private sector comments.

There are hundreds of thousands of small businesses that I still consider "private sector", that have absolutely no bearing on TARP, lobbies, publicly traded holdings, etc.

Private sector is my local gunshop, that employs two people (the owner and his wife), and the third works for voluntarily.
Private sector is the small hardware store that competes with Lowe's and Home Depot, that has been there since my Dad was a child, and is still there today.
Private sector is "blah blah blah".  I could name a ton of them.

The line of demarcation between private sector and what you are describing has mostly to do with companies that are "too big to fail".  No one on the national stage would blink an eye if any of the aforementioned shops went out of business, though they would be missed.

That's really the only thing I disagree with in your post.

You lost me there.  Coming to the United States is NOT a universal entitlement.  FAIL.

Cliff notes?  

Yeah, you're all sorts of fucked up in #2 but aside from that...pretty close.  

 

Same here.  It is a delusion that the Republican party was going to somehow gain a bunch of new party members by playing nice with illegals.

Delete #2 and you're good to go.

Agreed, especially on immigration.

There is no way we're going to boot out all the illegals, it's just not feasible.  Instead, give the ones who aren't breaking any (other than immigration) laws some sort of legal status.  Boot the ones who commit crimes, and the ones on public welfare back to Mehico.  And above all, secure the god damned borders.

It amuses me everybody's all scared of the Gitmo detainees coming to the US when any old terrorist can just get in Mexico and then be guaranteed access to get into the US.

More importantly, every poor Mexican that crosses the border is 1-100  Democrat/Big Government/Take My Money votes.  I say 1-100 because they have shitloads of children and in a few generations there will be a whole bunch of them.

Why the flame suit? Pretty sound.

I can agree with much of what you said.

Calm down, Steve.

You make some good points....

1. If President Bush is demonized by history then it will be for TARP and the other instances of government intermixing with the "private sector" which opened the door for Obama to implement the socialist revolution which is now in full swing.

2. We were wrong on immigration reform and it was a horrendous mistake for conservatives to oppose immigration reform and amnesty for illegals. Today the Democrats have undefeatable super majorities in both houses of Congress and they control the White House. President Obama has promised the immigration reform and amnesty are on his priority list for this year and passage of whatever plan he has in mind is a certainty. The Democrats will now win the loyalty of 30,000,000 new voters they are about to create and ensure majorities in ever national election for the foreseeable future.

3. The payout of bonuses to AIG executives or ANY executive from any company that received TARP funding was a HUGE mistake, and the line that they had to be paid due to contractual obligations which would have resulted in court battles if violated is a bald faced lie.

4. The corporations in the so-called "private sector" are being run by gangs of professional thieves who rape their companies, rob their employees, deceive their investors and pillage the national treasury. The past 10 years has been an almost non-stop parade of instances of corporate fraud, embezzlement, bailouts and robbery. K-mart, Enron, MCI Worldcom, Arthur Andersen, Tyco, AIG, Microsoft and on and on.

5. There is no such thing as a "private sector" in this country and it has not existed for a very long time. The so-called "private sector" has been interwoven with government for decades. The system of lobbying, cronyism, bribery, regulation and legislation have made corporate interests and the interests of politicians one and the same.

6. . The problems in point number 5 did not begin with the Obama Administration.

7. Despite all of the unwavering support for the military on this board and in this country, standing armies are still a threat to liberty. Armies obey the orders of those who command the army and our military is no different.Oklahoma National Guard along with out of state police departments sent to help with the Katrina cleanup effort and to restore order did confiscate weapons from law abiding civilians without anything more than an order from the chief of police to do so. Oklahoma National Guardsmen (not even PROFESSIONAL soldiers, but "Citizen Soldiers") even admitted to cameras for ABC news that they were primed to shoot and kill Americans on the streets of New Orleans if they refused to cooperate with or resisted the National Guard. If you want proof of this then just ask our very own Bama-Shooter.

God you guys are naive...

Sounds about right except the immigration views.
Among other things,  I dont think they would have ever been proponents of the conservative opinion.

...... backs slowly out of this thread ......

Immegration Reform

The problem with your post is that your solution to the problem is PANDERING to illegals.   Let's go for amnesty so they'll vote for us!


I would say, let us build a freaking wall and enforce the border - and worry about immegration laws later.   I am not sure that amnesty is or isn't such a bad idea; but I disagree with the logic that it is nothing more than a political tool to woo voters.  That's the stuff liberals do.

It is not impossible to make a valid argument that amnesty/immigration reform would have backfired on the Republicans. However, not passing it has given the Democrats a golden opportunity to do so and they will absolutely do so. They will capitalize on the opportunity and they will win the loyalty of the entire Latino community for decades to come. That will give them the voting block that they need to secure their power for the foreseeable future.

I agree with most of your points.

The last one is right on the money.  I love the military.  I have son serving now and I am a vet.  However, at the end of the day I suspect the military will always do what the politicians tell them to do, even if it takes away the Constitutional rights of the citizens.  I suspect many soldiers will have trouble differing between the parts of their oath referring to upholding the Constitution from the part that says to obey the orders of those appointed above them.

Katrina is a great example of how the military will act when given orders by corrupt leaders.  Another example would be the bonus army after WWI.  The active military went in and killed WWI vets because they were ordered to do so by the politicians who were tired of the vet’s protest to get a needed bonus that was promised to them during the Depression.

The problem with #2 is that we allowed, and continue to do so, illegal crossing of the border. It needs to have a cap and trade policy. Cap it now and trade them back to their countries of origin.

I don't follow the politics all that much,but I must say I agree,Think of this:

While you guys love to hop on Obama and beat the guy about the head (and you have reason to) you have to admit his destroying things isn't something he has to work hard to do,he's just kind of the last few nails in the coffin,so there had to be some others that share the blame for what's going down

While that may be true, it still doesnt make it right.

Either way .....the way you think it should have happened , or the way you say it will happen , is wrong.

That no doubt is what you said. That is what I said, that is what we ALL said. It backfired. Now there is no funding to complete the border fence, no funding to maintain it, no solution to the problem of illegal immigration and a continuing flow of illegals into this country.



You are absolutely right! Now that the liberals are in power you can absolutely expect them to pander to these potential voters and they have already declared their intention to do so. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they will do so and that they will win the loyalty of the Latino community, thereby solidifying their hold on power for the foreseeable future.

holy fuckin wall of text Batman....

I'm with you on those points Steve...

The pooch was royally screwed when WE did not take command of the immigration mess and dual path it with carrots for those in legal immigration and sticks for those who persist in additional illegal immigration.

The immigration mess was allowed to take on such a nasty racial / cultural tone that turned off millions of potential supporters from conservative wing for generations to come.  The issue is not WHO has come but HOW they came.

Those who have LEGALLY immigrated to the USA want to see others put in the same time and toil as they had too.

BIGGER_HAMMER

Sorry, should have been more clear.  My naive comment wasn't aimed at your statements, just those people who say, "The only law they have broken is coming here illegally."

Regarding your thoughts, I understand your train, I just think your on the completely wrong track.  In a nut shell, even if amnesty had passed there is no way in hell the majority of illegals given anmesty would start voting republicans.  The newly made legals would still be at the bottom of the food chain and would still vote for the party passing out more Party Favors.  

Actually, you are the very distilled essence of naivety.  It's core.

We currently have an open border.  We currently have maybe 15 million illegal immigrants in this country.

There exists no viable solution to deport 15 million or more people.  None.

So your solution is to instead do nothing and poo-poo the idea of giving most of them legal _non voting_ status?

Brilliant!  Status quo for the win.

 

yup

Arfcom never disappoints..

Very well written m_s..

Agreed, that's why there's no way in hell any "amnesty" should include voting rights.

The way it should work is you get to pay some fee to get temporary legal status to stay here.  Then periodically (yearly, every few years, whatever) you have to get it renewed.  To do that you need a job, must not be on public assistance, no crimes, etc...

Another point on the immigration situation.



Why have borders at all?  Why not just erase them?  If anyone should be able to go anywhere they want and lay claim to the fruits of anywhere they land, borders mean nothing.

I don't think many people here would have the problem with illegals here to the extent that they have if the illegals would fucking assimilate to the American way of life, If they would fucking learn to speak English, if they would stop getting kazillions of dollars of free shit just because they are illegal, if they didn't protest in the streets demanding rights while waving the mexican flag WTF (remember, they are fucking illegal). So if a conservative candidate would talk about reform using the aforementioned items as part of some amnesty I think more people would be willing to make some concessions. damnit, we can't even get English as the national language

Steve needs to get back on his meds.  

I don't have a problem with immigration. But there's only so much land, and so many jobs. Once we've taken care of our own then we can worry about providing homes and work for those who have already destroyed their own country.  

Actually, I would still want to kick them in the teeth.



I know enough people who came here legally, from MUCH farther away in MUCH worse conditions.  If they can do it, so can Mexicans.  Fuck em if they can't follow the law.



 

You're wrong on immigration.

Immigrants get to suck on the Gov't Tit without contributing to the systems milk (money and taxes). Also they have an adverse influence on voting (through legal and illegal voting, and through births) which ultimately dilutes our control over our country's destiny.

Simple as that!