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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sikhs Challenge Army Grooming Standards (Page 1 of 5)

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:51:07 PM EDT

FoxNews:

Sikhs Challenge U.S. Army's Ban on Turbans, Beards

Sunday , June 14, 2009

NEW YORK —Military service is in Capt. Kamaljit Singh Kalsi's blood.

His father and grandfather were part of India's Air Force. His
great-grandfather served in the army in India under the British. So
when U.S. Army recruiters talked to him during his first year of
medical school, he readily signed up.

But his plans to go on active duty in July are now on hold. An Army
policy from the 1980s that regulates the wearing of religious items
would mean he would need to shave his beard and remove the turban he
wears in accordance with his religious precepts.

Kalsi and another Sikh man with the same concerns, Second Lt.
Tejdeep Singh Rattan, are the centerpieces of an advocacy campaign
launched by the Sikh Coalition as it tries to persuade the Army to let
them serve without sacrificing their articles of faith.

"I'm an American, there's no reason why I can't serve," Kalsi, 32, said.

The Army has a long-standing interest in how its members carry
themselves, with policies that ban exotic hair colors, long fingernails
or certain colors of lipstick. Army officials declined to comment on
the reasoning behind its policy that would force the Sikh men to give
up their religious displays. Sikhs who were active-duty military when
the policy was adopted were allowed to continue serving without shaving
their beards or removing their turbans.

The Pentagon and other military institutions wouldn't comment. The
Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group, was
unfamiliar with the policy's origins.

As the Sikh diaspora has spread across the world, the issue of
turbans and beards on Sikhs in uniform has come up in a number of
places. In New York City, for example, Sikh traffic officers took
successful legal action to force the city to allow them to wear turbans
and beards.

The Sikh community is hopeful it will win the policy appeal; in an
April 29 letter to the Sikh Coalition, the director of the Army's Human
Resources Policy Directorate said senior leadership was aware of the
issue and was gathering information to make a decision. Toni Delancey,
a spokeswoman for Army personnel, said the appeals are under review.

Sikh Coalition executive director Amardeep Singh said he hopes that
not only are Kalsi and Rattan allowed to serve, but that the rule will
be changed for all turbaned and bearded Sikhs who would want to enlist.

"Our country's military needs to reflect what America is right now,"
he said. "It's a diverse country, it's a country that puts forth for
the rest of the world the values of liberty, particularly religious
liberty."

Allowing Sikhs to serve with beard and turban "will send a very
strong message to the rest of the world that we are who we say we are."

The Sikh faith requires adherents to follow certain rules, among
them that hair is not to be cut and for men, the wearing of a turban.
Both Kalsi, an emergency room doctor, and Rattan, a dental surgeon, say
they were following those rules when they were recruited and never had
any problems or were told they wouldn't be able to serve with their
beards or turbans.

Both said they raised the issue over the years and were reassured,
and that it wasn't until the end of last year when they were told they
would not be allowed to serve as they were.

The idea that he would have to choose between his country and his
faith is hard for Rattan. "I'm offering my life, but I'm not willing to
sacrifice my religious beliefs," he said.

Singh said it would be in the military's best interest to lets Sikhs
serve. The community has a long tradition of military service, both in
India, where most of the faith's adherents are, as well as in the
countries where Sikhs have made their homes, like Canada and the United
Kingdom.

"As part of our religious heritage, we're taught that we have an
obligation to actively serve and protect the communities in which we
live," he said.

In Canada, regulations for the armed forces allow Sikhs to keep
their turbans and beards, and even determine what colors the different
military branches can wear. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police allows
turbans as well.

The British Army allows Sikhs to generally keep their articles of
faith. For Sikhs who serve as civilian police officers, The British
Police Sikh Association is pushing for development of bulletproof
turbans. That would allow Sikhs to be part of firearms units, since
safety helmets don't fit over them.

Sikhs have a long history with the U.S. military, serving in World
Wars I and II, the Korean and Vietnam wars, and in the Persian Gulf.

One of them is Army Col. Gopal Khalsa, who is retiring in November
after more than three decades in uniform, all of those with a turban
and beard.

His distinctive appearance has required some conversation and
explanation at times, but it's never been a problem for him, or gotten
in the way of carrying out his duties or wearing his military equipment.

"Of course there's a lot of looks, but once people get to know you
and you're doing the job, that falls by the wayside," Khalsa said.

He thought a rule change would be a good idea, saying the presence
of Sikh soldiers would be an asset in places where the United States is
currently carrying out military operations, like Afghanistan.

"The Army would be gaining successful, useful soldiers," he said.

Kalsi hopes he can be one of those soldiers, and serve his country as generations of his family have done.

"That's what we connect with, that's part of our heritage," he said.
"It links us to our past and our present and hopefully the future."

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,526241,00.html

Not quite sure how I feel about this... I welcome their service, but there are reasons for our uniform standards. Helmets don't fit too well over turbans, and field protective masks don't work too well over beards.

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:53:36 PM EDT

[#1]

Nah nevermind, I really don't care.

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:53:47 PM EDT

[#2]

Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:54:24 PM EDT

[#3]

There is one were I work.

They are the warrior class, right?

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:55:05 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Fuck em. Fit the standard or don't join.

this

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:55:24 PM EDT

[#5]

Last time I checked military service in the U.S. was still voluntary. Thems is the rules. A lot of the structure goes out the window when we start making exceptions to the rule for people who volunteered.

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:56:04 PM EDT

[#6]

Aren't the Sikhs some bad ass mofo's???

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:57:32 PM EDT

[#7]

They should let them wear beards. The gas chamber will get a lot more fucking funny.

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:57:42 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Aren't the Sikhs some bad ass mofo's???

I believe they are the 'Klingons' of the Indian caste system.

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:57:43 PM EDT

[#9]

"bulletproof turbans"

Posted: 6/14/2009 1:58:24 PM EDT

[#10]

i say if their beliefs are worth the added risk, then let them.

and i extend that belief to everyone.

you should be able to sign a waiver and have a beard if you want one, fuck it being just the high speed doorkickers in the sandbox

got those stupid standards here at home, too.

my company doesn't enforce it across the board though, only on certain employees in certain situations.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:00:31 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

There are reasons for the "rules".

Either obey them, or seek another line of work.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:01:16 PM EDT

[#12]

That could take some getting used to...

http://thelangarhall.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/kalsirattan.jpg

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:01:40 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
i say if their beliefs are worth the added risk, then let them.

and i extend that belief to everyone.

you should be able to sign a waiver and have a beard if you want one, fuck it being just the high speed doorkickers in the sandbox

got those stupid standards here at home, too.

my company doesn't enforce it across the board though, only on certain employees in certain situations.

You could make the argument that it hurts the combat effectiveness of the unit, and puts other people at risk.

Although in all honesty, I think the military should be REQUIRING deployed troops to grow beards so they fit in better. I think we've proven that the NBC risk isn't high.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:03:43 PM EDT

[#14]

When I was in, and before I went to get my Jump Wing, there was an article in the Base Newspaper about this Sikh who was, I think, a Track Chaparral mechanic. If you look up the Chaparral the Missile, he was one of the guys that worked on the carrier and wasn’t involved in launching the missile.

I don’t recall much of the article – circa 1977 – except that he had to keep his hair and beard reasonably neat and trimmed.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:04:23 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fuck em. Fit the standard or don't join.

this

Next we'll have Marpat Burkhas. You joined the Army, the Army didn't join you. Conform or GTF out.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:11:07 PM EDT

[#16]

This already was challenged in the late '70s IIRC. I believe a court upheld Army regs for personal grooming standards. I was 12 or 13 at the time, so my memory may be failing me.

As others have said, fuck these people. They may be a "warrior" class in south asia, but if they can't shave their fucking beards and cut their fucking hair for the privilege of wearing our uniform, they can go drive a bus in some city that doesn't give a shit.

They're in our country. Our rules outweigh their cutural heritage. We're not a Hindu nation with Hindu values. I appreciate that they want to serve, but serving in the military isn't a "right".

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:13:29 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

lol good idea. They'll figure it out

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:14:56 PM EDT

[#18]

Fuck them... Its not their RIGHT to serve in the armed forces. This is the same argument I make against gays in the military.

The Military wants masses of like minded people. So even if they are missing out on ONE excellent serviceman by not changing the standards, they will get 10 decent ones that will meet the standard.

In the military, there is no room for individuals.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:17:08 PM EDT

[#19]

Meh, I say let them serve. I'm sure they can trim the beard a bit and have a top knot under their cover.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:20:39 PM EDT

[#20]

Reminds me of the "bitches" that would go on sick-call and get a shaving profile.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:21:13 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Aren't the Sikhs some bad ass mofo's???

I believe they are the 'Klingons' of the Indian caste system.

thier knives cannot be sheathed until bloodied..

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:23:03 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Reminds me of the "bitches" that would go on sick-call and get a shaving profile.

Bitches should not be shaving.

edit,

Legs pits and pelt excepted.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:23:21 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:26:49 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

i say if their beliefs are worth the added risk, then let them.

and i extend that belief to everyone.

you should be able to sign a waiver and have a beard if you want one, fuck it being just the high speed doorkickers in the sandbox

got those stupid standards here at home, too.

my company doesn't enforce it across the board though, only on certain employees in certain situations.

You could make the argument that it hurts the combat effectiveness of the unit, and puts other people at risk.

Although in all honesty, I think the military should be REQUIRING deployed troops to grow beards so they fit in better. I think we've proven that the NBC risk isn't high.

Not a high risk of NBC...

If people are comfortable, they perform better. These guys want their beards... It is part of their culture. If they want a beard, let them wear it.

One minute we whine because we lack recruits... Wonder why?

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:27:15 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

Ha, I remember my first time in the chamber felt like going down to the basement after a few hours of mom cooking. The others were having a much harder time...

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:27:27 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

So that beard could filter out Chemical or bio weapons too?

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:28:10 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i say if their beliefs are worth the added risk, then let them.

and i extend that belief to everyone.

you should be able to sign a waiver and have a beard if you want one, fuck it being just the high speed doorkickers in the sandbox

got those stupid standards here at home, too.

my company doesn't enforce it across the board though, only on certain employees in certain situations.

You could make the argument that it hurts the combat effectiveness of the unit, and puts other people at risk.

Although in all honesty, I think the military should be REQUIRING deployed troops to grow beards so they fit in better. I think we've proven that the NBC risk isn't high.

+1...When did our military appearance standards commence? WWI? IIRC, it was to control lice.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:30:08 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

having been in the CS chamber, I will gladly take that bet.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:30:45 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

I'll take that bet.... Or are you addressing FieroLoki specifically?

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:32:07 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

If a sikh can figure out how do make a pro-mask seal with a beard he's welcome to keep it. Until then, you will follow grooming standards so that you aren't a liability in the sandbox.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:38:54 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
"bulletproof turbans"

yes they do make them

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:39:50 PM EDT

[#32]

Po-lice that moo-stash!

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:48:06 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

And your point being what exactly?

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:51:27 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

If a sikh can figure out how do make a pro-mask seal with a beard he's welcome to keep it. Until then, you will follow grooming standards so that you aren't a liability in the sandbox.

So I guessing the Indian army doesn't do any NBC training at all?

Sikh firemen in India must not wear respirators either.....
It wasn't that long ago that facial hair was OK in US armed forces IIRC.

Posted: 6/14/2009 2:53:00 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

Spoken like a man that hasn't ever been in a gas chamber, or tried to get a mask to seal.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:00:51 PM EDT

[#36]

What is wrong with facial hair in the military? Cause I heard these guys were supposedly pretty good.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:01:49 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
This already was challenged in the late '70s IIRC. I believe a court upheld Army regs for personal grooming standards. I was 12 or 13 at the time, so my memory may be failing me.

As others have said, fuck these people. They may be a "warrior" class in south asia, but if they can't shave their fucking beards and cut their fucking hair for the privilege of wearing our uniform, they can go drive a bus in some city that doesn't give a shit.

They're in our country. Our rules outweigh their cutural heritage. We're not a Hindu nation with Hindu values. I appreciate that they want to serve, but serving in the military isn't a "right".

They are not fucking Hindu.

Sikhs are bad ass. They grew out their hair and beards to scare the shit out of the Muslims they were fighting. They used to be required to carry a dagger at all times. Knee jerk "scary man with a knife" reactions has limited that now.
While I don't think the military should be forced to conform to the Sikh religion, I (and you too even if you don't know it) would be glad to have one by my side on the battlefield. The ones I know are some of the hardest workers I have ever met.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:01:56 PM EDT

[#38]

I think the Court has already upheld the military's dress code.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:02:51 PM EDT

[#39]

They will lose in court.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:05:40 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
http://i42.tinypic.com/kw4tt.jpg
http://i14.tinypic.com/42iui5j.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/beintx.jpg

What is wrong with facial hair in the military? Cause I heard these guys were supposedly pretty good.

And what was the risk of an NBC environment back then?

The lack of facial hair outside a mustache within regs isn't a DOD policy because someone didn't like facial hair.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:06:52 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This already was challenged in the late '70s IIRC. I believe a court upheld Army regs for personal grooming standards. I was 12 or 13 at the time, so my memory may be failing me.

As others have said, fuck these people. They may be a "warrior" class in south asia, but if they can't shave their fucking beards and cut their fucking hair for the privilege of wearing our uniform, they can go drive a bus in some city that doesn't give a shit.

They're in our country. Our rules outweigh their cutural heritage. We're not a Hindu nation with Hindu values. I appreciate that they want to serve, but serving in the military isn't a "right".

They are not fucking Hindu.

Sikhs are bad ass. They grew out their hair and beards to scare the shit out of the Muslims they were fighting. They used to be required to carry a dagger at all times. Knee jerk "scary man with a knife" reactions has limited that now.
While I don't think the military should be forced to conform to the Sikh religion, I (and you too even if you don't know it) would be glad to have one by my side on the battlefield. The ones I know are some of the hardest workers I have ever met.

QFT. Although I believe their beards were grown to not cut the creation that God has seen fit to give them.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:11:13 PM EDT

[#42]

Fuck 'em.

They knew the rules when they signed up. No beards, no turbans. You're in the US military, not some religious militia.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:11:44 PM EDT

[#43]

I guess it depends on what unit your in as there doesn't seem to be a problem with these guys having beards and waring turbans

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:14:04 PM EDT

[#44]

No

.

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:15:08 PM EDT

[#45]

The British & Indian Army have no problems with Sikhs wearing their articles of faith in combatlinky

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:15:52 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This already was challenged in the late '70s IIRC. I believe a court upheld Army regs for personal grooming standards. I was 12 or 13 at the time, so my memory may be failing me.

As others have said, fuck these people. They may be a "warrior" class in south asia, but if they can't shave their fucking beards and cut their fucking hair for the privilege of wearing our uniform, they can go drive a bus in some city that doesn't give a shit.

They're in our country. Our rules outweigh their cutural heritage. We're not a Hindu nation with Hindu values. I appreciate that they want to serve, but serving in the military isn't a "right".

They are not fucking Hindu.

Sikhs are bad ass. They grew out their hair and beards to scare the shit out of the Muslims they were fighting. They used to be required to carry a dagger at all times. Knee jerk "scary man with a knife" reactions has limited that now.
While I don't think the military should be forced to conform to the Sikh religion, I (and you too even if you don't know it) would be glad to have one by my side on the battlefield. The ones I know are some of the hardest workers I have ever met.

QFT. Although I believe their beards were grown to not cut the creation that God has seen fit to give them.

A little poetic license, but I think the end outcome scared people. You should see them with their hair down. Those beards have been tied up as well. I'm talking ZZ Top size beards.

And to comment on the part I've marked in red above: The ones I know don't drive busses. They're your doctors when you go to the VA. Take that, xenophobe!

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:16:24 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Stick there ass in the gas chamber with a mask and there beard. And tell them, we will do this till it no longer effects you or you cut your damn hair

Bet a sihk (without a mask) will last longer in there than you (with a mask)...

Spoken like a man that hasn't ever been in a gas chamber, or tried to get a mask to seal.

Ifn yous says so, ifn yous says so, old man...

Posted: 6/14/2009 3:16:50 PM EDT

[#48]

Its a volunteer force, if you don't like the rules don't join. I really don't give a rats ass about your culture or heritage or what the UK or Indian army allows, you aren't joining there armed forces, your joining ours, if you don't like it GTFO