So what has Israel done for us? We've supported them financially and militarily for years. And what have we got in return?

I'm just curious. Are we funneling millions of dollars to them JUST so we can have an ally in the mid-east? Or have they ACTUALLY done anything for us?


 

why we get...ummm,  well there are the trilux sights, uzi and fal parts....[rolleyes]

At times Israel has contributed valuable intelligence to the United States.

(The responses (lack of responses) to your thread will be interesting.  You have asked the question pretty specifically.)

We are funneling BILLIONS to Israel.

Another question might be is - "After the billions funneled to Israel do we have an ally?"

Israel is like Puerto Rico, We really don't need them,and maybe they are a pain in the ass more times than they are helpful, but it is always nice to have Democratic allies to use as an FOB.......


JerrY

They bombed the Liberty?

Err, never mind...

It has to do with them being God's chosen people and at ione time we were a Christian nation. I t all goes back to Isaac and Ishmael in the OT.

Hmmm how far back do ya wanna go...They Brought their God (the only true God..the one of Abraham Isaac and Jacob to the world) Jesus was born of the people of Israel along with all the prophets and apostles..Our modern civilation could not exist without the LAW...which is derived from Mosaic (The Law God gave to Moses)..Medicine Law Science Engineering Literature you name it...Israel present day if not ancient gave all of us..God made a promise to Abraham...I will bless those who bless you (Israel) and curse those who curse you..Meanwhile back at the oasis..the muslims are planning to kill everyone on the planet who will not worship allah..starting right here in the USA which is why we are at war with Islamic terrorists at the moment...this will continue..Israel is pretty much the only friend in the Middle East we have
you may not believe this because of the rumor and innuendo about Israeli spying..but remember who was in the white house for the previous eight years...the man who sold all of us out to our enemies..do you think that all the good congressmen and women and the senate can all be trusted to look after our best interests?...or Israels for that matter...They are the ONLY friend the US has in the middle east..and that means OIL...without it we cannot compete..oil is our lifeline..and the arabs cannot be trusted to look after our national interests that is our job...it may not seem fair..but think of the alternatives...its us or them...play nice or we come and take it....Israel is the ace up our sleeve...imo of course

Very good question...... but the answer will cost you another 3+ billion!  Get right back to you with the answer! [:\]

DaMan

What has Israel done for us? Let's see...

They have been an island of pro-Western, US friendly stability and relative political consistency for many years, a "safe harbor" in the storm of Middle East politics.

They have been a useful tool for the US to use against those whom we do not wish to deal with publicly, they defeated (twice) the aggressive adventures of Arab confederations unfriendly to US interests who might otherwise now dominate the region.

They dismantled Iraq's reactor at Osirak, they chased the Syrians out of Lebanon while at the same time eliminating quite a few aircraft, armored vehicles and missile systems from the Syrian inventory.

They provided valuable real time intelligence to the USAF's Lybia raiders and US Navy task forces in action against Lybian armed forces and assisted in the airborne interdiction and arrest of a wanted terrorist who murdered a wheelchair bound American senior citizen.

They continue to resist PLO, excuse me, Palestinian Authority efforts to turn Israel into an enitrely Palestinian state which would tie up much of the Mediterranean coast line in a Pan-Arab beach. The US would have no friendly beachhead in the region in time of need.

I suppose much of the best of what they have done for us will never be known publicly, as the Mossad is very good at keeping it's operations off the front pages. Yet I have no doubt that the Mossad's willingness and skill in using techniques that the US would shy from have been helpful to us in direct ways, as well as by default.

Then, in fairness, you should ask, "What has Israel NOT done?"

Well, they refused to unleash conventional or nuclear weapons against Iraq despite deliberate and unprovoked attacks against Israel's cities during the Gulf War, thus avoiding a potentially unstoppable escalation of that conflict beyond the region.

They have also refused to rise to the Palestinian bait and lose control over the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

They resist even their own citizens plaintive call to erase the Palestinian people from the map and forever end the "Palestinian Question" of a homeland, an action that would earn Israel AND the US the condemnation of the world and the military intervention of the various Arab states.

And they consistenly fail to lay down their arms and line up once again for the train ride to the camps. They simply won't let go of the old fashioned notion that a people should be allowed to live in peace in their own land.

So, I guess if one looks hard enough, one might find some redeeming qualities in our relationship with Israel.

Israel is like your pain-in-the-ass neighbor who plays his radio too loud and whose kids walk their dog in your yard, but who always has just the tool you needed to fix the thing that broke on your car, who will lend you his lawnmower or help you paint your house.

You wish he'd move, but then suddenly you're glad he's there...

So their big asset to us is that they're our ally?

Well just so you know, it isn't just innuendo and speculation about them spying on us. Try reading Profits Of War. It is pretty amazing how much they do spy on us.

And really, how many allies do you think we'd have in the mideast if we DIDN'T support Israel.

From a historical perspective, the middle east used to look up to the US and the West. But after the inception of Israel and the wars following, the middle east has changed it's mind.





But again, the question was......


...what has Israel done for us?

Specificly.

Specificly?!  They are the dog that bites the hand that feeds.

Damn, cerberus! I'd expect my neighbor to do a bit more than keeping his dog from crapping in my yard and helping me paint my house for 3.8 billion dollars!

DaMan  

So England, Germany, Canada, Australia, Austria, Norway, Denmark, and a hundred other nations only asset is that they are our allies? An ally is  good thing to have, my brother.



And the French were selling US radio codes and crypto informatio to the highest bidder during the Gulf War. Russia was first in line with the check book. BTW, I'm trying to think, what has France done for us lately? Ever?



Really? None.



Uh, when was that?
The Egyptians don't wear German [i]Stahlhelms[/i] for no reason. Much of the non-colonialised Middle East states have always been solidly against ANY outsiders. Colonization by the Europeans tempered that, but the hearts of the natives were never soothed. They wanted the West out before Israel was ever a thought. read your history books.



See my post above. Meanwhile, I'll try and find something more...specific.

This is really hilarious.  Some people just don't give up.  None of our allies have done much for us and I don't hear cries about that.  Oh, but we're not anti-semitic, not us.

I think, Cerebus, that if the question were "What have the Israelis done SEFLESSLY for us?", you could eliminate most of your response. And, as for giving Israel credit for not using the first thermonuclear device since 1945, well that credit might be equally shared amongst several nations.

Compare that, with what the U.S. HAS selflessly done for Israel and, in dong so, generated far more dispute and garnered far more enemies than it ever needed or ever wanted.

Face it, the only reason for meddling in the M.E. is for their oil – the rest is all a consequence of the Jewish lobby.

[b]cerberus[/b], buddy, as usual you're right as rain.

Ordinarily, I would say something in defense of our ally Israel, but you've said it all!

Eric The(NoPointInGildingTheLilly)Hun[>]:)]

On the question of selflessness, what does [i]anyone[/i] do selflessly for [i]anybody?[/i]
Not picking on you, but what is the last [i]totally selfless[/i], anonymous, good thing you did for anyone?



Never said Israel was alone, only that they have had more provocation and faced more direct threat of immediate destruction for a longer time than anyone else with nukes, including the USA and USSR



I am as enamored of the true blue, good hearted American image as anyone you'll ever know. We are the finest, most generous country on the face of the Earth. We are also pretty smart about who we do business with, and why. Our nation has some very good, very selfish reasons to continue our association with Israel. No one ever seriously suggests we go to all this trouble for them while expecting nothing in return. Good guys we are, stupid we are not...



Won't argue with you there. In fact, oil is so important to us that we have paid many, many more billions to support those wonderful princes in Saudi Arabia than we will ever pay to Israel. We do it by paying whatever they want for their overpriced oil, and we do it happily cause if we don't, no one else will take their crap.

If not for NATO (and the memeber nations [i]selfish[/i] interests), and American nuclear superiority, I believe the Soviets would all to happily have taken over this region for themselves, either by political fiat or military force.

The US and Britain [i]gave[/i] the bin Saud family control of Arabia (hence the national name) in the 1930's and consolidated their power after WW2. We even brought in the engineers and equipment to drill the wells and pump the oil for them. All for the privelege of earning the "goodwill" of the bin Saud family. What has [i]that[/i] misguided generosity gained for us? We made a family of desert nomads the richest people on earth, gave them their own nation, defended it against hostile politics and military agression and what do they do?

They say, "We have become uncomfortable with the US Military presence in Saudi Arabia". Read this in yesterdays paper! They want us out, and it ain't cause of Israel, brother!

They want us gone for two reasons:

1) They figure we are about to go after Iraq. We can only do that well from bases on Saudi soil. They don't want the other Arab nations and their own citizens to see them support the US against other Arabs (even though they are terrified of Saddam) and they don't want to tell us No when we say we're gonna do it.

and

2) US bases on their soil mean that if/when we get tired of their crap we can more easily remove this rotten regime [i]because we are already there![/i]

Believe me, my friend the Saudis don't hate the US cause of Israel. It's not about Israel.

It's [i]all[/i] about keeping oil money flowing into their Saudi pockets, and that's a fact.

BINGO!!!!!

DaMan

Ummmm....wing-nut, party of one, your table is now ready.

Unimportant, and certainly not worth the $$$ spent to get that "safe harbor". We have a safe harbor, it's called the U.S.A.



True, and valuable help no doubt about that. Not worth the hassle we've had to endure siding with them over the years.



Can't imagine why a Palistinian would mind their country being taken over 50 years ago by the European Jewish displaced by forces unrelated to anything having to do with any Palistinian effort. Whiners, huh?



They resisted starting a nuclear war after SCUD's, with about a .01% successful hit rate were used by Iraq against them? Kudos. We managed to avoid a nuclear exchange with Russia under many much more tense and threatening moments during the cold war. I don't credit that to being generous or great. It's common sense. Nukes would have been way out of line.
(cont.)

Trust me, I think a lot of Palistinian methods are deserving of retribution, but again, should Palistinians resolve themselves to be nationless nomads so Israelies have a home? Isreal has "risen to the bait" in a big way on many occasions.



Considering the Isreali roots in the Holocaust, one would think they, if anyone, could understand the feeling of being uprooted from their own countries. They resisted "erasing" the Palistinians? No, they're just doing it in slow motion. Not as obvious as the methods used against them only a few decades earlier.



Their "own land"? Guess that depends on who you ask.



Sure, there's redeeming moments, but again, by no means worth the hassle it's caused.



We don't [i]need[/i] Isreal to fix anything. There's nothing they've done for us that we couldn't have accomplished ourselves.

They have helped keep the population of their neighbors in check, periodically.

Wow! I didn't know that 3+ billion of my tax money went to abortions, gun control, domestic surveilance, and liberal worthless causes!

I'm pissed now! [:P]

DaMan

As an American Jew I have to ask.

What exactly are they doing against you?

They have provided the United States with more intel. than you could ever imagine.
Do you think we give them that money for nothing?

How many operations have been run out of Israel that you will never hear of?

I'm an American above all, and served in the US Army faithfully for 5 years ,but these kind of threads just make me wonder how I'm thought of in this country.

M4-

Too many points to go through one by one, but here's a few thoughts:

1) America the Brave, The Strong, The Lonely...
It's 2002, not 1938, and we are not the isolationist America of the 1930's. We never will be. The events of the last 65 years have placed us Center Lead on the world's stage and there is only one way we are going back to understudy. That way won't be pretty. Like it or not, we are [i]the[/i] major player in the world and we [i]must[/i] have influence everywhere.

As far as ancestral homelands go, both the Jews and Hashemites (Palestinians) can lay claim to the land. FWIW, the Jews didn't kick the Palestinians out of anyplace. They were homeless before Israel and are homeless still. Israel has at least agreed to allow an established Palestinian homeland. The Palestinians wish to deny Israel the same thing. The points of dispute are Jerusalem, both sides claiming it in it's entirety as their rightful capital, and that nagging, nasty little item in the Palestinian Charter that says one of their Stated Aims, Reason To Exist, is the elimination of the Zionist State of Isreal.

You are correct when you say that of all people, the Jews should be mindful of the attempts to exterminate them. That is exactly what they are remembering when they hear of a Palestinian state that stretches "from beyond the Jordan to the sea." They know only to well what that really means, and the though doesn't generate much sympathy for the Palestinians, I'm afraid.

I don't hold any ill will towards Jewish people. I certainly question the methods and reasons for our apparently blind support of Isreal, but that doesn't have anything to do with not liking Jewish people in America.....or Isreal for that matter.

I don't expect them to pack up and leave. I'd expect them to continue to fight to survive. I just question the validity of their claims at times, and our overwhelming support of a very valid 2 sided issue. I honestly feel Palistinians have a right to not be removed from their homes like anyone else on this planet, Jews included.

Palistinians have some very valid complaints in my opinion. Complaints that I would think Jews would be highly well aware of from personal experience.

Your wrong Paul, at least regarding anything I personally post, I can't speak for the others, I don't know them.....and neither do you.

You're absolutely right in what you have said. I just think that America is lopsided in it's recognition of Isreali issues because we're more compatable with them then we are with Arabs(in general).

Like I said, I don't think Isreal should or ever will simply fold under terrorist pressure, but I do believe that they are, at times, equal players in the terrorist game. That combined with some valid Palistinian issues makes for a lopsided relationship w/ Isreal in my opinion.

To be honest, any nation that runs itself through devout, singular religious beliefs is a recipe for violence. Whether that religion is Islam or Judaism. Forgive me, I'm an atheist, so all that "this is MY holyland" stuff doesn't cut it as an arguement with me.

First of all, this thread wasn't started as a "who here hates the jews!?" thread. Nor do I think it's degenerated into one.

I think the subject of our total support for Israel, and the billions of dollars we as tax payers give them, is worthy discussion.

I'm not here saying that Israel needs to fall and in it's place a Palestinian homeland.

But I HONESTLY was curious as to any specific things Israel has done for us. And to some degree, there have been some convincing arguements here about intelligence and them being an ally in a region not that friendly to the U.S. over the past 20 years.

Oh, and please don't try and to say, in a very round about way, that just because somebody questions our relationship with Israel that they're antisemetic. That's  B.S., and you know it.

Why does everyone bitch about money we give to Israel and no one else?  Like was mentioned earlier we give money to everyone.  What did giving Japan and Germany all that reconstruction money give us? What has the Philliphines given us?  What does Mexico give us for our money?  What will Afganistan give us in the years to come.  We are like a co-dependent country.
They shoot up "The Liberty",  we bombed a Chinese embassey, the Russians shoot down a Korean airliner. Mistakes?  maybe/maybe not.  Life from the view of a country goes on.
Personally I would like to see us spend all the money we give for aid in the region used to develop a new energy source so we could just say to hell with the mideast.

I speak for no one except my self but my comments about Israel are relative to a country.

In my poor confused mind Israel is a country.
Jews are a people living over the world.

What does Israel do for us and what have they done for us ?  Israel has provided real and valuable intelligence.

Israel also gave us a few dead sailors in the USS Liberty attack.  That attack was deliberate and well coordinated and against an UNARMED United States flagged military vessel.  The Liberty was as soverign as Rhode Island.  But what the hell, those dead were mere sailors and and of small consequence.  Well maybe to their families they counted, maybe to wives, mothers and fathers they mattered a little - perhaps to the children who would never again feel the touch of a father.
And they mattered to me.  Still do.

While we were engaged in the desert war, Israel provided continual criticism of our military and that's while we were actively engaged and dying.

Israel conducts on-going spy operations against the United States.

Oh almost forgot.
Israel provides a fine supply of the drug "X" to the United States.  Used religious students through Amsterdam for mules until that route got busted.

As far as Israel being a consistent ally.  They provide us with intelligence and conduct operations that we will not conduct only if it will further their cause.  I believe the nation of Israel will continue to exist.  The neighboring countries need to wake up to that fact.  Until Israel feels secure (not in my lifetime), the surrounding high ground (Golan Heights) should remain in Israeli control.  Also realize that their has never been a country called Palestine.  Palestine has always been a region in the Middle East.  The self proclaimed Palstinians were or are citizens of a country in the area.  Another point to ponder.  Prior to the country of Israel being established in 1954 (I think) our allies (Great Britain and France) were supporters of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon.  The U.S. immediately backed Israel because of its democratic style of government (the only one in the region).  Our allies joined us in support.  This became on opportunity for the USSR to fill the gap for countries like Egypt.  My final point of information is that the Muslim religion is not that different from Christianity and a lot of the concepts are the same.  The rise of extremist Muslims and their assaults on western countries and countries supported by the west is not what main stream Islam is about.  Look into articles or books written by Karen Armstrong.  She has a lot of first hand information and provides excellent background  on the whole mess in the Middle East.  I don't agree with some of her conclusions but the information that she provides is excellent.  I think we should support Israel, but the other countries in the area should be listened to if they are willing to control the extremist Muslim groups.  The U.S. could reighn in Israel very quickly.

Isreal has, at least in a roundabout way, given us such freedom loving paragons of American virtue as; Waxman, Feistein,(too many leftist Dems to list!) Dershowitz, Barry Scheck (sp?) (the entire "Dream Team" with the exception of Johnny Cockrahn), Speilberg, Gefen, Streisand, Larry King, a disproportionate number of Hollywood and media moguls, ACLU and other leftist extremist and other assorted anti-American activists (which includes trial lawers), etc. ad nauseum.

And please, my Jewish friends, leave the hyper-sensitivity out for just awhile. In fact allow me to be sensitive for just a second. (As a constantly berated southerner I think I've earned the right.) In a recent Sienfeld, Jerry refers to a southern beauty as the most intellectually repulsive woman he has ever been attracked to. Soon his penis and brain debate whether he should continue his charade with her in order to continue to use her as a sex toy. Swap the southern woman for a black or a jew and what do you think would happen??

Completely agree 10mmfan. The real reason so much support is given to Israel is because of the major influence and power Jewish people have in this country. We really have no business picking sides in these conflicts as we then become part of it. Israel wants nothing more than to see us get dragged into this conflict on their side. I have heard reports that Israel had spies in the U.S. keeping an eye on some of the terrorists involved in the 911 attack. If Israel had known of the attack do you think they would have warned us or let it happen to drag us further into the conflict.

Gee, Paul!  Maybe you'd like to (or maybe not)explain that one to the readers!  

The last figures I heard for economic assistance AND Military Aid to Israel last year was way over THREE BILLION out of the US taxpayers pocket!

I guess you're not fibbing, you just FORGOT a few details about our taxpayer support to Israel!  There's an economic assistance package AND a military assistance package!

DaMan

PS -  But Paul, this does bring up a good point.  With a higher average per capita income than citizens in Italy and Spain, WHY ARE WE GIVING "ECONOMIC AID" to Israel... as if it were some starving third world nation?

As you pointed out, the USAID info leaves out military aid, primarily FMS which is over $2,000,000,000.  The economic aid MAY be used to service military debt.  The FMS may only be used to purchase US military equipment, which explains (other than the qualitative reasons) why you see so many systems (M16s, CAR15s, M60 MB tanks, F 15s, F16s, etc.).  That also breeds anti-US sentiment when the people of the Mid-East region see Israel employing all of the US
hardware we have given them against Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc.  Egypt gets something on the order of $2,000,000,000 in total (FMS and economic) aid as well.  I believe that those two nations constitute over 50% of total US foreign aid.

Incidentally, Israel is the only nation receiving aid that gets it on the first day of the Fiscal Year (1 Oct), regardless of budget issues.  Everyone else gets it as they spend it.  The Israelis are free to (and do) invest US aid $ in interest bearing US accounts and collect interest on their aid while the US makes interest payments on the debt.

The reason we are giving the money to the Israelis (and the Egyptians) is to keep them from going to war and resolving the situation militarily. We have also had a rotating US Army battalion in the Sinai desert ostensibly for the same purpose since at least 1980.  These deals were negotiated by former US presidents and approved by the US Congress.  I am sure that there was heavy lobbying by certain constituencies for this, and the historical lesson of the cost to the US economy (for supporting Israel) the last time they really went at it (1973).  Guess what the real sticking point probably was in the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks Pres Klinton brokered last year?  If we get the Palestinians and Syrians to sign on, look for the money given out to go much higher.

I personally don't have a side in this argument (except as a taxpayer). Just thought you should have a few more facts to muddy the water!

Certain people don't give up...

Thank-you, SF!  I agree completely with your summary and analysis!

DaMan