This isn't meant to start a flame war, but it is an experiment to see if people can discuss this rationally and without degeneration into name calling, etc. Let's try to keep it civil.

Partly in response to all the "scientific" threads supposedly "proving" the existence of God based on some random collection of facts about the universe.

Since this is very much akin to someone "scientifically" proving how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....(in case you're curious it's 16 if memory serves correctly)...I'll show you how the Scripture itself explicitly acknowledges that there is no God.

(Or if there is a God, quite a lot of things that Christians and other Believers think they know about him are totally and completely false.)

[b]Preamble:[/b] This is a thought experiment strictly based on facts that we know about God as He has revealed to us in His Word. (He wouldn't lie about that now...would He?)

[b]WARNING!:[/b] If you have trouble with simple logic, find another thread and argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Let's begin...

[b]Fact:[/b] The Bible is the Holy Word of God, given directly from the mouth of God to man.

[b]Fact:[/b] As the Word of God, the Bible is 100% factually accurate.

[b]Fact:[/b] God is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and omnibenevolent (all loving).

[b]Fact:[/b] God is the Creator of everything and everyone in the observable universe. (Which includes all humans, living, dead and not yet born.)

[b]Fact:[/b] As you read this there are thousands of babies not yet conceived who will ultimately die and go to Hell for their sins committed during life.

[b]Fact:[/b] Since God is all loving, he does not want this child to die and go to Hell. (The Bible tells us this, as God sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins)

[b]Fact:[/b] Since God is omniscient, he already knows the ultimate fate (Heaven or Hell) of this child not yet born.

[b]Fact:[/b] Since God is omnipotent, He could easily prevent that child from ever being conceived, born, live his life and ultimately die and suffer for eternity in the fires of Hell.

[b]Conclusion:[/b] Because God creates individual beings (humans) which He *knows* ([u]before the beings are even created[/u]) who are going to be born, become sinners and finally be tortured for eternity in Hell, He is *not* all loving.

[b]Alternate Conclusion #1:[/b] God creates, or allows to be created, beings (humans) which He *knows* are going to be born and tortured for eternity before they are even created but is powerless to prevent this. Therefore he is not all powerful.

[b]Alternate Conclusion #2:[/b] God has created humans but doesn't know which ones are going to use their 'free will' to choose the path of evil and subsequently die and end up in Hell. Therefore God is not all knowing.

[b]Alternate Conclusion #3:[/b] The Bible is just plain wrong (either in whole or part) and none of the things we think we "know" about God are true.

All I'm asking of you, gently reader, is to tell me which of the facts presented above that you disagree with.

I have no problems with people having faith in a God, and I don't expect to persuade anyone otherwise, I'm just curious how the conclusions reached above can be reconciled with the facts as we know them.

-Observer

Oh hell, here we go again.

But, on this one I've got to chime in, because I asked an Assemblies of God preacher essentially the same question - if God knew the outcome of the experiment from the beginning, what's the point?

His response?  When Satan was cast into Hell, he took some of the angels with him.  Still others were undecided.  We're here to demonstrate to them what happens when you don't submit yourself to God.  

I'm not joking.

"So," says I, "we're an exhibition match for the angels?  I don't think I care for that interpretation."  He got up and walked away.

[Flame suit=ON!]

I like it.

Faith \'fath\[i]n[/i] ...2a (1) belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) belief in the traditional doctrines of a relegion b (1):firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Alright, now we can move on to Israeli bulldozers....

Don't....do....this....must....resist.....

[i]Resistance is futile - you will be converted[/i]

Pardon the hell out of me, but the Book of Revelations describes the Apocalypse, does it not?  Then the only thing God chose not to know was exactly [i]who[/i] decides to follow, and who does not.  To what purpose?  Again, if the outcome of the experiment is known, and the number of decimal places is irrelevant, why bother?

While I'm not religious, and do not have any dog in this race, this just really strikes me like the babelfish bit from THHGTTG:



Written by Douglas Adams.  Here's hoping he's in a better place.

(edited to clean up ugly formatting.)

Has it ever occurred to you that NOTHING has EVER occurred to GOd????

Oh boy...where to start...

God is all knowing. He knows the outcome of everyday and every thing that will happen from now until eternity. He knows that you will fail and maybe even reject him and still loves you unconditionally.

If I understand you correctly, you are assuming that babies that are aborted go to hell????
Negative. The Bible talks about an age of accountability for everyone. When a child is born or unborn it is perfectly innocent, as it matures in the world it is given a choice to accept or reject Christ.

God loves us and does not want to force himself on us, so he gives us the choice. If you are born into this world and reject God, is it his fault? I think not.

Not one person that goes to hell will be there because they were "born to go there" or because God sent them there. There is not one individual that is in hell right now (including Satan) that is there because God wants them there. They are all there by choice.

What choice? Choosing to reject God and his son Jesus Christ that gave his life and died in our place so we didn't have to go to hell.


Edited because my thoughts come in waves...[BD]

Observer, you're 100% correct, and it was this line of thought that finally convinced me to stop being a Christian.

Okay, I don't get involved in these threads either, but I can't resist.
If I read correctly, my Bible says:
God is a vengeful God. You may choose to fear Him or not. If not you will suffer His wrath.
Not omni-benevolent.
As far as knowing that certain people will be born just to burn in hell, suppose these people have children that will not choose the same path that thier parents did. Or they may come in contact with other people as an example of what happens if you choose the wrong path, thereby converting others.
I don't know if this sounds as good in print as it did in my head, but you get the idea.
Lack of sleep last night has my brain malfunctioning more than usual this morning.[:)]

God is not all-loving.  God is thrice Holy (unable to have sin in his presence) and love is only one of his attributes.  The fact that he will allow a created being free will including its own demise is his triumph not a failure.  That He would essentially give His own life for those who wish to be with Him shows the extent of His love.  The damnation of those who choose to be His enemies proves His power not a lack thereof.  Planerench out.

No, it shows either a horrible lack of judgement or a horrible lack of compassion.
If humans can have more compassion than your version of God, that tells you something very very bad about your version of God.

That an all knowing God would die for those who would reject Him shows alot of love but His Holyness demands an eventual end of it.

Rik, it will pain you to know that if you were saved to begin with you still are, no matter what you decide.  Planerench out.

Acceptance of 'GOD' is based on "FAITH.".

(E.T. Hun is the only person I know capable of arguing with this position.)

If you keep on reading, eventually you'll get to the part that says there are some things we aren't supposed to understand while we're here on earth......

[rolleyes]

Then again, that's pretty easy to overlook isn't it?

Of course, it takes faith to accept that there is a God that we cannot physically see or touch.

There are several things you have listed as facts that are not facts at all.  

1)  The bible is not 100% accurate.  It was when written.  It has since been translated many times.  Whether intentionally or just because of language differences some things have lost or changed there meaning.

just a side thought.  maybe we are here on earth not for god to learn about us but for us to learn about us.  If this life isn't the end but a step then doesn't it make sense we need to make our own decisions and learn from them ourselves.

[b]FACT:[/b]God provides to each and every human being the element of free will.

[b]FACT:[/b] Each and every man and woman are allowed to execise their free will as they see fit.

[b]FACT:[/b] God also knows, in being omnipotent, that those who execise their free will to sin, FREELY CHOSE their own fate.

[b]Conclusion[/b] Your premise is shown to be flawed....without resorting to such trite responses as "lord works in mysterious ways", or "somethings we can't understand".

Secondly, your presentation of omnipotence is not one normally ascribed to God. God is not one who knows the future as a psychic claims to. God IS the future. He is not constrained by our conception of time.

Not a fact.  The Bible contains many parables, symbols and alliterations to assist humans in understanding God.  God never makes the claim that his word is absolute fact.  His followers claim that it is [b]100% inspired[/b]
This is a common straw man that is used to show that the Bible is errant:  The Bible is the word of God, the Bible refers to the 4 corners of the earth, Thus God thinks the world is flat.


God is [b]NOT[/b] omnibenevolent.  God is LOVE, but God is also JUST, WRATHFUL, JEALOUS, MERCIFUL, and FIERCE.  Fitting God into human emotion is one of the common ways that people either mis-understand his ways, or actively try to disprove his existence.


Why else would they go to Hell? [}:D]



Seems like God provided a simple method of avoiding judgement.  Believe in him and you will be saved.  Nothing too hard about that!



I will wait to reserve judgement about God's emotions until I reach Heaven.  


So could that child.  God is righteous and cannot allow sin in his kingdom.  The choice is entirely up to the individual.


Since many of the facts you presented are twisted or flat out wrong, your conclusions are equally flawed.



Many of these "Facts" are commonly misunderstood, incompletely derived from other facts, or blatent falsifications.  That is why a purely logical discussion on this subject is impossible.

[b]OUCH![/b]   [spank]

God, if he exists, is extra-logical -- and hence not bound by the constraints of logical argument. Hence, the only way to disprove or prove God's existence is via a leap of faith.

No, a TRUE all-knowing God would never have had to resort to the whole gimmick.  And when it comes down to it, how big a sacrifice was it to die for us?  I mean, even if Jesus was fully human as well as fully God (and how do you pull THAT off, I wanna know) he still would have KNOWN that death was not the end, and that he would wind up back in heaven.  Humans have to suffer through uncertainty on the subject, which makes their deaths much more traumatic.



It's really irrelevant, as there is nothing to be saved from.

Then why should anyone believe in the first place?  There are other religions that make more sense.

OK, here goes:


"Conclusion: Because God creates individual beings (humans) which He *knows* (before the beings are even created) who are going to be born, become sinners and finally be tortured for eternity in Hell, He is *not* all loving."

Corollary to Conclusion: The existence of an omnipotent, omniscient God who is not all loving seems as good a reason as any not to get on His Bad Side, lest one be 'tortured for eternity in hell' as you model it.


"Alternate Conclusion #1: God creates, or allows to be created, beings (humans) which He *knows* are going to be born and tortured for eternity before they are even created but is powerless to prevent this. Therefore he is not all powerful."

Conclusion #1 does not necessarily follow, for
it fails to account for a cosmic sense of humor.  If we are made is His image, as the book tells us, then it would follow that He could also sport a sense of irony/humor.  An interesting extension along these lines might be made to the question of free will, depending upon the somewhat vague 'made in his image' language.

"Alternate Conclusion #2: God has created humans but doesn't know which ones are going to use their 'free will' to choose the path of evil and subsequently die and end up in Hell. Therefore God is not all knowing."
See Alternate Conclusion #1.  Nothing irritates a smartass more than being proved wrong for all eternity.  Or however long an omniscient, all-powerful, hopefully all-loving being with an appropriate sense of humor cares to carry it.

"Alternate Conclusion #3: The Bible is just plain wrong (either in whole or part) and none of the things we think we "know" about God are true."
The existence of simple but complex mathematical codes in the early hebrew editions of the Bible would tend to enhance the theory that the early editions of the Bible were created using more technology than was known to exist back then.  Unless you can offer some way to encode a Bible sized book with equidistant letter sequences which appear to describe events which could not have been described at that time using either the the technology known to them or to us, then that would seem to leave a few loose ends dangling from your exercise.  

Nor does it follow, even if one theorizes that the Bible might have been partly in error, that 'none' of the things from the Bible are true: if we make your assumption that the Bible was PARTLY in error, then we in the process of doing so must accept that it was also partly correct, and therefore at least SOME of the things in the Bible MUST therefore also be correct.

[}:D]
Allow me to postulate an alternate point:
'For the sake of argument, suppose God didn't exist, but organized Evil of a presumably non-biblical sort did.  Would organized Good - even if those organizations were to be based on nothing but pure fiction, mythology - be Good or Bad if it tended to offset that organized Evil?'

The most likely conclusion is, that if there is a God, it bears little resemblance to any human religion's conception of it.

Rik, is this supposed to be a [b]serious[/b] argument?  If it is, I've grown to expect more of you.

I don't understand [u]how[/u] or [u]why[/u] my television works either, but I still believe it does.

I DO understand why my television works, even if I couldn't build one myself.  And more importantly, I know my television is UNDERSTANDABLE.  I know that most things in the universe, if not everything, is UNDERSTANDABLE.
But the concept of God is, by definition, not understandable.  Any being that exists outside of our universe (as a true God necessarily must) is not understandable by something that was born IN this universe and has no experience of anything else.
So, given that any God is not understandable by humans, and since that means that any human religion is just as likely to be true as any other, why choose one that DOESN'T seem to make much sense over one that does?
My personal solution is to not buy into any of them, but if I were to embrace one, I would sure want it to be one that was at least internally consistent.

Do you believe in cancer and/or aids?

I don't "believe in" them the way I believe in America, or truth and justice or believe in my family.  I accept the fact of their existence.  I also consider them further proof that God is either not benevolent or not all powerful/all knowing.

Not bound by the constraints of logical argument?  Hmmm...  Perhaps certain of us really [b][i]have[/i][/b] been created in God's image.  [:D]

If I am not mistaken, those on both sides of this discussion would agree that the Bible is a collection of ancient stories. Parts of the Bible have been handed down generation to generation for thousands of years in a variety of languages and dialects culminating in Greek then Latin and finally the King James version in English.

Even if we accept that the original was the actual word of God, how can we seriously claim that the current-day version remains true to the original, or even 50% true? We make no such claim for any book a fraction the Bible's age and with fewer translations.

Scholars still argue about translating Chaucer's works and they were written in Old English!

One final point: If an aethiest were to follow the precepts of the Bible and lead a blameless life, it would seem to me that he/she would be more worthy of our admiration than the blameless Christian. Because the aetheist chooses that life because he/she thinks it simply the right thing to do, selflessly – not for the reward. Yet this Christian god would condemn the aetheist to eternal agony simply because the aetheist did not worship him. In other words, "Worship me or else!" Seems to me this Christian god has got a few problems!

Post from stcyr -

Well, the very Good News is that we don't have to guess just how accurate the 'scribes' were who copied these holy books and translated them into diverse languages. We have a very nice bit of evidence that simply can't be argued with at all.

The Dead Sea Scrolls. There were two complete copies of the Book of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea Scrolls that dated from approx. 250-200 BC.(Please note my use of 'BC' rather than the more politically correct 'BCE').

At the time of their discovery, the oldest extant Hebrew Bible ('Old Testament' for you heathen) was from approx. 1300 AD ('AD', not 'CE').

When compared, there was not one jot or tittle difference in the words, the Chapters, the indentations, anything! They could have been written at the same time by the same hand!

How could this be? Simple. The scribes were under the impression that they were dealing with the word of G-d, nothing less!

There were numerous word and number games that they used to make certain that each verse, each chapter came out the same as those written before!

This same care and conscientiousness were used in all of the same translations given the New Testament books as well.

There were many 'English Bibles' before the King James Authorized Version of 1616. There was an English Bible that dated from the 8th Century, and different versions in different dialects right up to the time of Tyndal, Huss, Wycliffe, and others, who predated the King James Version by centuries.

You may claim that it is all a very clever Jewish fable that we Christians believe, but you will have to admit that it is a very [b]old[/b] clever little Jewish fable! And one that has changed [b]not at all since[/b] it was first proclaimed at the very beginning of this 'Common Era'!

Eric The(HistorialChristian)Hun[>]:)]

Amen to that! [rolleyes]

Does the Bible say God is All-knowing? I don't recall it sayign that. In Fact it says he has blocked my sins as far as the east is rom the west, which means he wouldn't know them

Besides, if their is no God, their is no God-Given Rights, so the government can take away your guns because the second-admendment is Government-given

Eric,

If all that you claim, about the Dead Sea Scrolls totally corroborating much more recent versions, is correct – and I have no reason to disbelieve you – then I unreservedly with draw the comment I made in my post – the first one, at any rate!

[b]So many mistakes of logic, so little time!![/b]

I'll pick just one:

[b]Tell me, oh omniscient Observer, what is "all loving"? [/b]

Is it creating man [u]with no free will[/u]?  God's already done this - he calls them apes.

Or is it creating man [u]with free will but no consequences if man chooses his own death[/u]?  Such was the want of Lucifer.

[b]Enlighten me, wise Observer... what is "all loving"?[/b]

No flames - no innuendo.

Would possible proof that God had communicated with modern man possibly assist in proving God's existence ??

(I don't refer to a personal experience but a public experience.)

WOW -  a rare bit of objectivity.

Quit it - you are making the rest of us feel uncomfortable.

[BD]

Eric.....oops not exactly true....maybe one version of the Torah was close to the Dead Sea scrolls but certainly not the direct anscestor of the one today. Many books were left out by the early editors and some were later added back
in (the apocrypha, etc). Many of the names are slightly different and some of the stories are significantly different. As for the
meat of the matter, the results are the same, but to say that it is identical, simply does not
follow reality. There is an excellent series on the writers of the Bible on the Straight Dope
website--- [url]http://www.straightdope.com/columns/index.html[/url]
While not willing to enter into religious discussions on this board, I am certainly will ing to discuss archeological matters.

Right on all counts.  God created us to live in community with Him (that, BTW, is the meaning of life).  But he also created man with free will.  If we did not have the freedom to either choose or reject Him, we would be mindless robots.  YOU are free to reject Him, but in doing so, you also choose your fate.

On the contrary, the is only one thing that we must fear; God's justice.  As stated above, God is perfect, holy and (very importantly) just.  He will not allow sin to come in His presence.  Jesus' sacrifice was an atonement for the sins of those who choose Him.  Those who continue to reject Him until the end will face the final judgement.  We are all sinners, but those who are covered by Jesus' atonement have that sin washed away.  No amount of being nice or doing good things or being a happy go-lucky selfless athiest can measure up.

I believe the bible to be the flawless work of God.  I also believe that there are minor errors and/or room for misunderstanding in ANY translation (i.e. KJV states "Thou shalt not kill" while the Hebrew text read "Thou shalt not murder").  Fortunately for us, the bible is the most thoroughly documented, cross-referenced and supported text ever written in the history of mankind.  There are tens of thousands of ancient copies in the original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic that have been preserved.  I have yet to hear a plausible argument for any factual error in the bible, though.

The most important thing here is not to take my word or the word of EricTheHun (who I believe is also right on) or anyone else's word, for that matter.  Check it out for yourself.  Go to the source.  I'm a flawed human (just ask my wife [:)]) not an authority.  You will not find the Truth in a person.  You will find it only in God's word and by honestly seeking Him.
Jesus said "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 6:19)
-----------------------------------
Let's see where was I . . . AR15.com.  Oh, did I tell you that I *really* like my AR-15?  Yeah!

Since God can't communicate with us unless he exists then yes, I think that would be helpful. [;)]

If that's what you consider to be some form of proof, you've got to be kidding.

Why don't we just use that "logic" for every supernatural "being"....the toothfairy, Thor, Oden, the boogy man whatever. The subject of religion is the ONLY discussion where anyone would have the nerve to submit "faith" as a valid explanation for anything.

Doesn't cut it as proof in a religious discussion, or in any other. The end.

No doubt the more learned Biblical scholars will correct me if I am wrong but, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that calls for Christians to worship God in a public arena.

Why is it that Christians cannot, apparently, be trusted to worship privately in the quiet sanctity of the own homes? Why are they required to join some organized "flock"? Is it possible that this is the most effective and efficient method wherein the Institutional Churchs for may fleece them?

The more recent versions of these Church Institutions don't even need a building, they need only to reserve regular TV time.

And, ironically, it seems to me that most of these tax-free organized churchs who deal in the hereafter prefer their rewards in the form of cash donations in the here and now!

One more time.  I'm an Agnostic.  Many of the  of organzied religions give me problems.  The more fundamental the believers in any religion the more problems I have. I can say without qualification those most fundamental have the most closed minds.

Never minding the above I do have a strong belief in my God.  (Although often I don't recognize the God of my belief's in many of these "religious posts.")

As for direct contact with God I give all televangelist all credit due them.  Many of these folks probably have both God and Jesus over for dinner on a regular basis.

However, I do believe God may have spoken to one public figure in my lifetime and that person was Martin Luther King.

In his speech in Washington, DC - I haven't gone back and checked the year - Martin King clearly stated .....You will get to the promised land but I-will-not-be-with-you.  (At best a paraphrase.)  Now Mr. King didn't dodge or hedge - he didn't say probably won't; may not, etc., he clearly and understandably said - I will not be with you.

Now how did Martin King know he would not go ?

Mere and flawed mortal that I am, I see only three possibilities:

1)  God explained that he (King) wouldn't be making the trip.

2)  Martin King had already arranged to have himself asassinated and knew he wouldn't be around.

3)  He had the ability to clearly see the future.

I'm certain that others will have different views.

Faith is what keeps us driving on the freeway when other cars are hurling towards us at 80mph.  We have faith they stay in their lane and will avoid hitting us by five feet.
Isn't some form of "faith" what you to bet your life on every day?

What do you believe then, [b]M4[/b], is the value of "faith" if not to believe that which we can not prove with certainty, yet is still of uttermost importance to us?

M4-
I have to respectfully disagree with you.  Faith is the basis of any relegious belief.  You are asking for an empirical or tangible proof for an internalized feeling.  Can't be done.  It will all boil down to what each person chooses to believe.  If you choose not to believe in God, that is your decision.  You will never know if you are right or not until after your death.

The best part about these threads is the inability of people, who by all accounts should know better, to stay out of them.  Carry on...

God Bless Texas, the lurker.