User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:47:41 AM EDT
[#1]
i have a used honda because where i lived there were literally no other cars i could buy. so it was that, or not go to school. and its a 97, with 268000 miles, still going strong (i baby it though)
i wouldve liked to buy american, but sorry, best car gets my money. do you treat your kids differently 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:48:21 AM EDT
[#2]
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada.
2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:50:59 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't feel that way. In the last few years I've owned a 2000 Chevy Z71 pickup, a 2000 GMC Suburban, and now I have a 2008 Chevy Tahoe.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:51:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Personally, I blame the unions. Easy target, I suppose. But for so many years, several thousand dollars went into the price of each and every car and truck made just to support the union. I think I heard it was aroun $7000, but I haven't had all of my coffee yet, so might be wrong. When a fucking pickup truck costs $40,000, something is very fucking wrong. Maybe if the blue collar worker could still afford to purchase a brand new truck, GM and the others wouldn't be in so much trouble.
Of course, I remember that alot of the costs forced on auto makers comes from the govt., too. What is that called, cafe standards? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:58:39 AM EDT
[#5]
GM has sold more autos than any other car maker probably every year except one - I don't think people buying foreign makes is the issue with GM.
Doesn't matter how many cars you sell if your legacy costs outpace your profits - very simple math can figure this out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 2:58:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:00:42 AM EDT
[#7]
GM and Chrysler fucked themselves
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:00:48 AM EDT
[#8]
are "we" to blame? only if "we" are part of the union.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:05:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Well, for one, the CAFE standards are partly to blame. Toyota isn't required to abide by CAFE but the big 3 are. Either way I will only buy from Toyota. There simply isn't enough room in the market place for all of these manufactures and the cars they make. Sorry GM, time to go tits up.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:12:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here The only profits that go to Japan are the manufacturing profits. Dealer profits stay in the US. When Toyota built their plant in Princeton, IN it was estimated that around 300 businesses (some new like the AK Steel we have in our county) would be supplying the new Toyota plant. I'd guarantee if you could break it down the American tax base benefits more from one new car supplied/made/sold in the US than the Japanese tax base. Not to mention Toyota is NON-UNION and is one of the most sought after manufacturing jobs in our area. Thanks Toyota for making SW Indiana a better place. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:14:18 AM EDT
[#11]
I blame management for going into to much debt, designing cars that don't last, changing the styles every year, marketing a 25,000 purchase on the "wow" factor, having too many safety problems that require recalls, generally only caring about next quarters stock price, paying executives way too much, giving executives lucrative pensions after only a few years employment, shipping US jobs to Canada, mexico and other outside the US locations, treating employees shitty enough they have to have a union, having their own finance arm of the company, leasing vehicles that they must take back after 3 years instead of selling them, thinking quality is about options, and generally running the company into the ground all the while taking large payments for themselves.
That about sums it up I think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:15:56 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here The only profits that go to Japan are the manufacturing profits. Dealer profits stay in the US. When Toyota built their plant in Princeton, IN it was estimated that around 300 businesses (some new like the AK Steel we have in our county) would be supplying the new Toyota plant. I'd guarantee if you could break it down the American tax base benefits from 1 new car supplied/made/sold in the US than the Japanese tax base. Not to mention Toyota is NON-UNION and is one of the most sought after manufacturing jobs in our area. Thanks Toyota for making SW Indiana a better place. that's cool to hear, the last time i was at school, the engineer teaching the class stated what i posted about the profits. being he works for Ford directly i figured he had the inside scoop. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:24:49 AM EDT
[#13]
I'll feel guilty about buying foreign cars when "American" car companies feel guilty about using foreign parts in their cars.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:26:17 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here The only profits that go to Japan are the manufacturing profits. Dealer profits stay in the US. When Toyota built their plant in Princeton, IN it was estimated that around 300 businesses (some new like the AK Steel we have in our county) would be supplying the new Toyota plant. I'd guarantee if you could break it down the American tax base benefits from 1 new car supplied/made/sold in the US than the Japanese tax base. Not to mention Toyota is NON-UNION and is one of the most sought after manufacturing jobs in our area. Thanks Toyota for making SW Indiana a better place. that's cool to hear, the last time i was at school, the engineer teaching the class stated what i posted about the profits. being he works for Ford directly i figured he had the inside scoop. Inside scoop on what? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:29:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here The only profits that go to Japan are the manufacturing profits. Dealer profits stay in the US. When Toyota built their plant in Princeton, IN it was estimated that around 300 businesses (some new like the AK Steel we have in our county) would be supplying the new Toyota plant. I'd guarantee if you could break it down the American tax base benefits from 1 new car supplied/made/sold in the US than the Japanese tax base. Not to mention Toyota is NON-UNION and is one of the most sought after manufacturing jobs in our area. Thanks Toyota for making SW Indiana a better place. that's cool to hear, the last time i was at school, the engineer teaching the class stated what i posted about the profits. being he works for Ford directly i figured he had the inside scoop. Inside scoop on what? What the union told him 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:35:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
1. You DO realize, of course, that very few "foreign" cars are actually foreign, right? Hondas are made in Ohio, Toyotas are made in California, Nissans are made in Tennessee, while Fords are made in Canada and Chevy's are made in Mexico and Canada. 2. Are you saying that consumers should reward poor performance and quality because its "American"? and for the big suprise is that all the profits go to japan, i understand that they build vehicles here because they know that most Americans in general don't understand anything more than sports scores and american idol. As Americans we should spend our money where we like but also need to understand the importance of not supporting domestic companies. look at all the people that nash wal-mart and still shop there to save a few bucks, while wal-mart strangles out all the mom and pop stores that where there before wal-mart moved in. it's the same mind set imho, and we also should not reward poor performance, but buy from a manufacture that sells quality and is made here Buy stock in Toyota dn you, too, can share in the profits. These companies (except Chrysler) are publicly traded. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:40:26 AM EDT
[#17]
I don't feel bad at all.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:45:05 AM EDT
[#18]
I've owned Toyotas, Chevy, Pontiac, Honda, and an old Uick. (Buick that the B fell off).
Do I feel that I've not supported US automakers? No. Do I feel that US automakers have not supported the consumer? Maybe, but I missed the days of the past where V8 engines blew valves and rods at 20,000 miles. My cars have always been reliable enough for me and when they get past that point I dump them. Research the failure of US Steel and the Steelworker's union and then compare it to GM and the UAW. The culture that is the auto industry in the US hurt itself. Foreign automakers who came here brought a different culture with them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:50:12 AM EDT
[#19]
I buy the best car (Honda, Toyota) because I work hard for my money and I don't waste it on some substandard product made by an overpaid, Democrat voting , lazy, selfish dickhead working for the UAW.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:55:01 AM EDT
[#20]
"Buy American" is part of what got us here in the first place. GM (and others) may have caught on a little sooner and corrected things if we didn't continue to provide charity in the form of buying their garbage. We enabled them, which made them weaker when they needed to be at their strongest.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:56:38 AM EDT
[#21]
I don't give a shit where something is made, if it's the best one of the type that I'm looking for or it's just something that I particularly want then that is what I buy. It's my money, I made it, I'm not going to feel guilty spending it on whatever I please. That being said, every vehicle I've ever owned except the first one that was bought for me has been a domestic.
If a particular group is to blame it's the UAW. The car manufacturers that don't use union workers are doing fine, all of the ones that do are bleeding money. Coincidence? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 3:56:54 AM EDT
[#22]
What killed GM is what Honda and Toyota don't have yet, a 100 year history that has turned into a multi-billion dollar a year legacy of pensions and retiree healthcare.
Every single penny of that multi-billion dollar a year legacy comes from GM's bottom line. There are approximately 500,000 GM retirees. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:00:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
GM has sold more autos than any other car maker probably every year except one - I don't think people buying foreign makes is the issue with GM. Doesn't matter how many cars you sell if your legacy costs outpace your profits - very simple math can figure this out. +1 read this carefully. The largest car manufacturer can't make a profit, there is something else wrong besides me buying a Honda. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:17:41 AM EDT
[#24]
"We" as Americams are to blame for EVERYTHING. Don't you listen to the "ALMIGHTY O"?
Silly question. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:25:30 AM EDT
[#25]
The combination of the UAW and Libtards blocking drilling brought down GM. $1/gal gas and we'd all have a Suburban or a Hummer (maybe a vette)
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:34:30 AM EDT
[#26]
Hummm,
Buy crappy car made in America or buy well built long lasting car made in America. Guess which one is made by an American company and which one is made by a Japanese company. Nuff said. UAW = poor quality. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:38:13 AM EDT
[#27]
The UAW wouldn't exist without the .gov, and 'we' elected the .gov, so....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:44:10 AM EDT
[#28]
That was kind of the idea when I bought a car made by their competition.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:49:57 AM EDT
[#29]
I'm 38 and in an upscale white collar environment. 80% of my associates would NEVER consider buying an American car because they feel it's beneath them. They have no experience with them other than distant memories of their fathers '74 Skylark with chronic issues... Ironically, plenty have BMWs that head to the shop every now and then for failures, yet they see these issues as 'maintenence' as opposed to defects. American manufacturers have rapidly closed the gap in actual quality, but have had little success from breaking perceptions of poor quality and more importantly the image of their cars as having little pride of ownership.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:54:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
but should I feel guilty for not buying American? YES you should feel guilty if you preach buying American. This would also make you a hypocrite 
NO you should not feel guilty if you preach globalization and buying the best product on the market for your needs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 4:59:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Poor management and unions (with collusion from local, state, and federal government) are to blame for GM's failures.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:00:08 AM EDT
[#32]
If a company can't turn a profit, then they don't deserve to be in business. If foreigners can profitably produce vehicles in America, then Americans can too. If the Americans running GM, etc. can't, well then find some better American businessmen.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:01:24 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
i have a used honda because where i lived there were literally no other cars i could buy. so it was that, or not go to school. and its a 97, with 268000 miles, still going strong (i baby it though) i wouldve liked to buy american, but sorry, best car gets my money. do you treat your kids differently this |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:05:58 AM EDT
[#34]
No I'm not a Democrat who imposed onerous regulations and taxes. Nor a union Boss who blackmailed Big 3 into unsustainable contracts. Not a CEO who allowed it to happen and didnt say FU at first sign of nonsustainable mechanizations by labor and politicians.
Nope just a simple man who didnt even graduate HS and lucky to live in USA where the little money I earn I am free to buy on value and given lots choices. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:06:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Doesn't matter how many cars you sell if your legacy costs outpace your profits - very simple math can figure this out.
Yep. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:13:37 AM EDT
[#36]
If they would build the better car they could have my money....but I am going to stick with Toyota
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:21:30 AM EDT
[#37]
Years ago I had a Chevy diesel pickup that had a clutch problem, as they all did!!, and chevy refused to warranty it. I had it fixed and traded it the day it was fixed and never bought another GM product. Couldn't care less about GM!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:24:10 AM EDT
[#38]
More I think about it - it was the "Buy American" crowd that enabled the failure too. Lookup "enabling" in the realm child psychology - it applies to adults and businesses too. Basically as Big 3 was turning crap and out of loyalty to American worker, embedded Federal and local government contracts requirements, fleet deals these companies were allowed to survive and thrive turning out garbage due to non-market forces until that was unsustainable too. Performance got worse and worse. Costs got higher and higher. And we subsidized this failure.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:30:46 AM EDT
[#39]
the profits of auto makers can either go to unions or Japan. I don't like either choice...the unions are extortionists and Japan is Japan. I'll at least go with the good cars that were actually assembled in the US. GM screwed themselves by going to Canada and Mexico...I couldn't care less if they go under.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:32:42 AM EDT
[#40]
Build junk, pay $40+ dollars an hour for manufacturing this junk, and have top execs receive golden parachutes?
May they all die a thousand deaths. Its not my fault. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:40:00 AM EDT
[#41]
You are not to blame.
My family has owned a used car lot since the 1980's, thus I've been around big numbers of many models of cars - and seen what they were able to do, and just couldn't - over the years. GM was making shit most of the time, and it was readily apparent to anyone who had their eyes open. If you, I and every Aunt Sally had been buying more of their cars - they STILL would have held to making absolute shit (but raking in the profits). If one looks back enough, they'd be able to start pinpointing when GM was experimenting with planned obsolescence (parts made to only last a specific number of miles). Anyway, if it were REALLY American's fault for putting them under by not buying American products, Ford would be in the same boat GM and Chrysler intentionally put themselves in. But realize this - Ford isn't. More (not all, but more) Ford models proved reliable enough over 150,000 miles, then over 200,000 miles, to create return customers. Hell, Ford was making cars work better, longer, in the 1980's when GM was putting out its most absolute shit lines. There are still Ford models, or motors, being made today that I will never buy, but otherwise they get my full support for NOT screwing America and NOT needing the 'loan.' |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:41:57 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I'm 38 and in an upscale white collar environment. 80% of my associates would NEVER consider buying an American car because they feel it's beneath them. They have no experience with them other than distant memories of their fathers '74 Skylark with chronic issues... Ironically, plenty have BMWs that head to the shop every now and then for failures, yet they see these issues as 'maintenence' as opposed to defects. American manufacturers have rapidly closed the gap in actual quality, but have had little success from breaking perceptions of poor quality and more importantly the image of their cars as having little pride of ownership. Takes a generation to make or break a reputation in cars. I remember the 1960s Japanese cars, garbage! They were producing good cars by about 1975 but did'nt get the solid household rep until the late 1980s. Similarly for Koreans, after the 1980's crap only today 20 years later are they finding some respect. Big 3 will have to come through with 20 years of CTS's across the fleet to get people you're talking about wanting them again. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:43:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Years ago I had a Chevy diesel pickup that had a clutch problem, as they all did!!, and chevy refused to warranty it. I had it fixed and traded it the day it was fixed and never bought another GM product. Couldn't care less about GM!
There are still Ford models, or motors, being made today that I will never buy, but otherwise they get my full support for NOT screwing America and NOT needing the 'loan.'
And this! This is an issue I have with domestic autos. I have a 1998 Tahoe, it has several problems that have existed for years in this particular model, drive train. You would think a company would scramble to correct a known problem, but they do not, I don't understand this. The foreign auto makers seem to take it personally when a problem shows up and scramble to fix it. I remember when Subaru had a problem with timing belts, the paid for all of them that failed. Remember when Dr. W. Edwards Deming tried to help the US auto industry after WWII and 'did not find an audience', then he went to Japan. The US auto makers did it to themselves, along with the UAW. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:44:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Your right. We should have purchased from the socially responsible standpoint not from the rational basis of cost vs benefit. I mean the other companies put out a decent product but really don't we have an obligation to keep the union members working and ensuring that they have the jobs they need to feed their families?
- James Taggart |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:49:40 AM EDT
[#45]
Why should I feel guilty for buying a better quality product? If GM, Chrysler, or Ford made a car I liked, I'd buy one. I also blame the unions. The big three are retirement and health care plans that make cars on the side.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:51:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
I know foreign cars we of better quality for a while, but is that a reason to buy from the company that attacked us? I personally don't have any major problems with Japan and I do own a Nissan pickem up, but should I feel guilty for not buying American? There are those few elite who for there lack of morals and character have really screwed us and America, but are we all to blame for not doing more to support our own country? Most of us hate NAFTA, but how many REALLY look for the "made in America" sticker? addendum.. !!!!! now realize I am posing this as a QUESTION I am certainly not making accusations! Like I said I own a Nissan. I am just curious what others think and looking for information on the topic to form a better, more educated decision for myself 
When did Nissan attack us?
As for feeling guilty....... Why in the fuck would I share ANY blame for what ANY company that I don't work for does to destroy itself? Fuck GM and Fuck the unions. How hard is this to grasp? Responsibility: Accepting the credit for what goes right and taking the blame for what goes wrong.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 5:57:04 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
are "we" to blame? only if "we" are part of the union. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 6:01:12 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
I blame management for going into to much debt, designing cars that don't last, changing the styles every year, marketing a 25,000 purchase on the "wow" factor, having too many safety problems that require recalls, generally only caring about next quarters stock price, paying executives way too much, giving executives lucrative pensions after only a few years employment, shipping US jobs to Canada, mexico and other outside the US locations, treating employees shitty enough they have to have a union, having their own finance arm of the company, leasing vehicles that they must take back after 3 years instead of selling them, thinking quality is about options, and generally running the company into the ground all the while taking large payments for themselves. That about sums it up I think. There are quite a few good points in there, but I would like to point out that the UAW started with GM in 1937. I'm not sure how treating them better today would cause the workers to drop their union ways. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 6:02:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
"Buy American" is part of what got us here in the first place. GM (and others) may have caught on a little sooner and corrected things if we didn't continue to provide charity in the form of buying their garbage. We enabled them, which made them weaker when they needed to be at their strongest. Not to hijack, but I find this comment funny from a VW guy... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2009 6:05:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
I don't feel that way. In the last few years I've owned a 2000 Chevy Z71 pickup, a 2000 GMC Suburban, and now I have a 2008 Chevy Tahoe. This. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
