The apartheid system is gone, but violent crime is
rampant.

During the '80s, TransAfrica, NAACP, the Black
Congressional Caucus, Hollywood glitterati, college
students, and other groups held massive protests on
college campuses and at the South African Embassy,
built shanty towns, and called for disinvestment and
sanctions against South Africa for its racist
apartheid system.

There's no longer apartheid and there's black rule in
South Africa.

Each South African day sees an average of 59 murders,
145 rapes and 752 serious assaults out of its 42
million population. The new crime is the rape of
babies; some AIDS-infected African men believe that
having sex with a virgin is a cure. Twelve percent of
South Africa's population is HIV-positive, but
President Mbeki says that HIV cannot cause AIDS.

In response to growing violence, South Africa's
minister of safety and security, Steve Tshwete, says:
"We can't police this; there's nothing more we can do.
South Africa's currency, the rand, has fallen about 70
percent since the African National Congress came
to power in 1994. Emigration from South Africa (mainly
of skilled people) is now at its highest level ever."

Kenny asks, "Is South Africa doomed to follow the rest
of Africa into oblivion?" He says no, but I'm not as
optimistic because of the pattern nearly everywhere
else in sub-Saharan Africa.

The tragic fact is that ordinary Africans were better
off under colonialism. Colonial masters never
committed anything near the murder and genocide seen
under black rule in Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, Nigeria,
Mozambique, Somalia and other countries, where
millions of blacks have been slaughtered in
unspeakable ways, which include: hacking to death,
boiling in oil, setting on fire and dismemberment. If
as many elephants, zebras and lions had been as
ruthlessly slaughtered, the world's leftists would be
in a tizzy.

When Zimbabwe, then Southern Rhodesia, was under white
rule, the ANC demanded the ouster of Prime Minister
Ian Smith and the installation of black rule.

Today, Zimbabwe's Minister Robert Mugabe commits gross
violations of black and white human rights. With the
help of lawless thugs, Mugabe has undertaken a
land-confiscation program from white farmers. Instead
of condemning Zimbabwe human-rights abuses, the South
African government has given Mugabe its unqualified
support.

Kenny says whites treat blacks like animals. When a
dog misbehaves, we don't blame the dog - we blame the
owner for improper training. In Africa, when blacks
behave badly, Kenny says colonialism, imperialism,
apartheid, globalization or multi-nationalism is
blamed for not bringing up blacks properly.

Liberals saw South Africa's apartheid and other
human-rights abuses as unjust because blacks were
suffering at the hands of whites. They hold whites
accountable to civilized standards of behavior. Blacks
are not held to civilized standards of behavior. From
the liberal's point of view, it might even be racist
to expect blacks to adhere to civilized standards of
behavior.

"Africa's past experience should give Western
anti-apartheid activists some pause for thought.
Wouldn't it be the supreme tragedy if South African
blacks might ponder at some future date, like the
animals of Jones' Manor (George Orwell's `Animal
Farm'), whether they were better off under apartheid?
Black rule alone is no guarantee for black
freedom.

I think the real question should be:

[B]Is communist/socialist/liberal rule better?[/B]

Look at the idealologies behind the [B]current[/B] rulers of South Africa and some of the other African nations.

Which ones are making progress??
The ones which have the least amount of C/S/L influences.

I think not but, hey, they got what they wanted....freedom from 'white oppression'.

Are we THAT surprised, really?

When Apartheid left, things got worse for everone. But people are still responsible for their actions.  And the Communists Nelson Mandela merely made it where the South Africans true intentions could be carried out.  They instantly reverted to tribalism/barbarism.  But they seemed to have grown attached to the trinkets of the capitalist, which they promptly stole, looted and killed for.  Their will not be any wealth or solidness in South Africa for another 50 years. And the last vestige of the British Empire came down.  Which I didn't want to see. As them being their was a good thing. For the British for the Tribes (as they had a chance at some sort of civilization and comfort and for the security of the region in South Africa, plus we could have used them for a staging point to go after Libya and Egypt in the cold war had that been necessary.

Benjamin

"S. Africa:  Is black rule better ?"
I understand the above is "your" question but I don't believe that question was ever "the" question.

The only pertinent question for the liberals was..."Is South Africa ruled by the black ?"

The question of "better" is a practical consideration and not addressed by the Dims/liberals.

[smoke]

Their response will always be:

When you pull the existing rug out (apartheid in this case) from beneath any system, there will always be a period of collapse before a new utopia (they don't actually use this word of course) can be built.  The obviously just need more $upport from the developed nations. If utopia does not arrive there, it's because not enough $upport is being given by US (our fault).

Got a link to the source, MAUSER88?

No.

(Yes)
The continuance of partheid - Our fault.
The "middle" (now) the..."period of  collapse"...the destruction of the old (bad) to make room for the new (good.) And as above when the new and good doesn't happen (See $) our fault.
 Should a miracle happen (A very large and very real miracle) and the new system survives and prospers....."See what happens when the U.S.'s oppressive presence is elminated !"
(See $ above)

Strangely we "can" win in the world's lesser developed nations we can just never win in the U.S.

[smoke]

www.charlotte.com/observer/opinion/pub/wwilliams0109.htm

5subslr5,
Oddly ("strangely", that is) much of your "reply" is (to say the least)... not a reply (per se).
Rather...a "somewhat", (i.e. veiled) repetition (viz, rehashing) of (some) of the "points" I raised...
without...a clearly-("unambiguously-")stated retort(or response, for that matter), your (referential) statements to (continued) US $, "notwithstanding". (Though your "unstated" (roundabout) jab is duly noted (though not (necessarily) conceded).)  
[;)]

I concede to all of the above excepting the "jab" which must have been so poorly phrased to even escape me.

I just don't have brain cells to reply to a thoughtful post while thinking of something  different.

What was running through my mind was how we helped South Africa by forcing all U.S. companies to stop doing business.  Course that didn't extend to stopping imports on needed raw materials.......

[smoke]

Point taken. Makes sense to me now.

I thought you were having a bit of fun at my overuse of (parenthetical statements). [:D]

For some of us, we take the motto "Live free or die" literally.  The people might be worse off economically and crime-wise, but they can vote.  Our founding fathers made a decision to fight for freedom despite the potential for economic problems (attacking your largest trading partner usually isn't a good idea, aside: that's why I don't think China would ever consider hostilities against us) and stability for the right to chose our own destiny.  Just as South Africa's problems won't go away over night, the US didn't become a world power for many decades.  Give them time before judging them so harshly.  Even though every teenager makes mistakes when first given more freedom, it doesn't mean that they can't still grow-up to be a responsible adult.  In my opinion, it is counter-productive to suggest that a group of people (any time, any place) would be better-off ruled by another group.  That's just not right.  While it might have the potential to increase stability or wealth, it is still wrong.

Disclaimer, I've been to South Africa.  I went to manage a group of security guards for a French company in SA.  The van that picked us up at the airport had wire mesh over the windows.  The hotel we stayed at had 14' concrete walls with a 10' (guess) chainlink fence on top of it.  I was scared.  My knee-jerk reaction was that white-rule shouldn't have ended.  I would have slept better, but that doesn't make it right.  The job was canceled after the head of the office's secretary was found raped and burned alive in her car.  After that, the French company decided to leave Africa for good.  Over a hundred SA's, twenty Frenchmen, a dozen American security guards, and I lost our jobs that day.z

I wonder if the secretay would agree with you ??


[smoke]

you're not suggesting that they actually have a democracy, are you?  in practice, not what's written on paper or paraded in front of the visiting dignitaries?  going through the motions does not qualify.



two things, china is not our biggest trading partner (it just seems that way) and economics was part of the reason this country gave England the bird.



very poor analogy.  major difference between a country that's so screwed up it rewards people for killing and a country that took time to become recognized as a world power.



poor argument again, i think.  it's assumed that the teenager will learn from his mistakes and suffer the consequences of them.  i see very little of that happening in SA or the rest of the nations in Africa.

none of this means that the blacks of Africa (any nation) would be better off ruled by whites, but it does mean that the blacks are doing a damn poor job of governing themselves.  the vast majority of African nations, once they gained independence from colonial rule, have ended up in dictatorships of some form or another.  and where dictators rule, human rights tend to fall by the wayside.  and no amount of "time" will ease that pain.

No, You are WRONG!!

When in the course of liberating the proletariat  from the old discarded bourgeois society, there comes a temporary period of "oppression", it is a necessary transition in the struggle against the greater bourgeois oppressive elements of society which are being replaced. In the conquest of political power by the proletariat it may, at times, be necessary to "break a few eggs" for the greater good of the collective!!

[sarcasm off]

No!

Kenny?

[img]http://www.southparkmovie.com/img/home.kenny.gif[/img]

From article -

Yep! You would, too, buddy!

I say we import all the Afrikaners that they care to send! Give 'em Arizona, Nevada, or Utah! They'd be used to it!

Eric The(JustConsiderItTheFrontLineAgainst[i]LaReconquista[/i])Hun[>]:)]

[b]HEY!!![/b]  [pissed]

Macallan...love those Lenins...John and Vlad
right up there with Karl and Groucho
Hey look on the bright side...Zimbabwe is finally free...free of food...free of medicine..school..jobs...can Souf Afrika see the same...nope probably never
must not forget the Muslims are heavily proselytizing there...Bin Ladens group in particular..gold platinum uranium etc in abundance..someone will always prop up the govt. but we are in interesting time...

Post from The_Mccallen -

Now, now, we can always give 'em West Texas, where I'm from! My great grandfather was a Dutch pioneer in West Texas, so it's already in their bloodlines.

If these Afrikaners came to Texas, you know the English literacy rate here would skyrocket! And I imagine they'd all be conservative Republicans!

Eric The(OK,Bring'EmOver)Hun[>]:)]

Post from The_Maccallen -

Now, now, we can always give 'em West Texas, where I'm from! My great grandfather was a Dutch pioneer in West Texas, so it's already in their bloodlines.

If these Afrikaners came to Texas, you know the English literacy rate here would skyrocket! And I imagine they'd all be conservative Republicans!

Eric The(OK,Bring'EmOver)Hun[>]:)]

Why not give them Texas. Yall always wanted to be your own country anyways. Well Call it... Texafrika.

Hey, Afrikaner women are HOT!![:P]  Feel free to send all the Afrikaners you want over here!!

Yes, [b]Chimborazo[/b], those Dutch girls are pretty easy on the eye, all right, but I wasn't going to mention [u]that[/u] part of the equation!

Let's get 'em all confortably settled here first - then the Gold Rush begins!

Eric The([i]GootenTaage!Blondie[/i])Hun[>]:)]

I have corresponded with a 68 year old white South African lady for quite a while.
The gun laws there are that civilians are legally allowed only one gun, and no semi autos. This has done little to stem the flood of AKs into the country with the illegals pouring in from the north.
The business of guard dogs and security experts is booming.
The risk is 1 in 3 that at some time in your life, if you are female, you will be raped in SA. Added to the HIV rates there, this is essentially a death sentence.
I have told her over and over to "Get out of there, NOW! Remember what happened to Custer!", and her reply is that they have been there 5 generations, and have nowhere to go. This is their home. Their black friends are as horrified as they are, and frequently help them guard their small farm. No country will accept them as immigrants, mainly because they are white. White South Africans are considered to be "getting what they have coming" by most governments.
The genocide against whites there, and in other African countries is conveniently overlooked by the UN.
The fact is, no one gives a damn, I mean, it's not like they are muslim Albanians or anything, they are Christian white folks.
White South Africans are outnumbered 20-1, and the marauding bands of savages have turned most of the high rise office buildings in the large cities into squatter's camps.
They build cooking fires in the marble floored lobbies, and camp there. To enter an elevator is to risk being murdered by the residents of said elevator. The police will do nothing.
21,000 people were murdered in SA last year, and rest of the world turns a blind eye....
An 8 month old baby girl was raped to death by 5 men in Cape Town as they thought it would "cure their Aids".
A 24 year-old pregnant woman was repeatedly raped in her home in Birch Acres,Kempton Park, South Africa on Monday, January 08 2001. The five month pregnant woman, her husband and their five year old daughter were relaxing at home when four unknown men entered the house. The husband (32) was tied up and held at gunpoint while the suspects raped his wife in the dining room. The suspects then ransacked the house and took electrical appliances, household goods and clothing valued at about R20,000. No arrest has been made.

Zimbabwe is even worse.

Zimbabwe, formerly the very prosperous country of Rhodesia, has been in a destructive tailspin since the English colonials turned the country over to the black locals in the late sixties .  It is now in the final stages of complete social and economic collapse.  The killing of the remaining white settlers, who built the country and are the country's only source of wealth, is in process, condoned by the government leaders.

The world powers, so quick to condemn countries governed by white people, are strangely quiet.

South Africa, which was turned over to the black leaders only a few years ago, is in the beginning stages of a similar collapse, a collapse that is evolving so rapidly that, according to Richard Miniter of The Wall Street Journal, it has led some liberal scholars to ask the question, "can blacks govern?"

Do you have any idea what an influx of Afrikaans would do to the Texan accent?

Howdy paardner! Oi vas mosyink down boi the ranch, hey wot? Oi spottet some dahty kaffirs troink to cross Der Rio Grand.

I think we had better settle this like men and play a game of rock/paper/scissors.  That's right...you better be scared.

And voting makes us free, right!


I submit that SA isn't free. You are not free if you have no right to defend yourself (or you don't have the right to the means to defend yourself), and you are not free if the government controls the market, etc. Voting doesn't make you free.

They've already killed the goose that laid the golden eggs!  When the lights go off, they'll realize what they've done.

DaMan

Zoom,
I lived in South Africa for a year...1989-90, Christmas to Christmas. Where did you live? I lived in Durban part of the time and traveled all over Suid Africa..for $500 you could fly unlimited flights on SAA for 6 months. The rand was about 4 to 1 to the dollar back then. I felt like a rich man.

For those of you who are dissecting the problems of today's South Africa..you are spot on. It's more complex when you are there. There are 7 tribes, Indians from India, Colored's, Afrikaaners (Dutch Boers) and last but not least the "whites" from England. S.A. is about to turn into what was Rhodesia. And no they do NOT give a damn. It is sad too...South Africa actually was quite metropolitan in alot of ways. Even without our help.

Nelson Mandela should have never been elected as their President. When they decided to go to "free" elections..they had no "lag" time to catch up to an election that would have represented everyone instead of just Kwosa's and other Afican tribes,whites were left out by shear numbers. Even the Zulu's have NEVER trusted Mandela and Monghosutu Buhtelezi (King of the Zulu's) was more comforable with "white" elected officials making decisions..not a color issue but, experience issue. He was right.

Mandela has run the economy into the ground, their industries are crippled with poor performance and quality control issues...their crime rate has increased by 100 times since I was there. And white South Africans have left the country in doves to Europe and America. Just what Whoopy Goldberg wanted....congratulations liberals...your hands even corrupt other nations.

One of the most beautiful countries in the world...sad.
[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

And one more thing..they have the most beautiful girls in the world...no crap. They have to walk everywhere until they are 18 (nices arses and leggs), thats when they can get a license AND cars are as expensive as hell. I just could'nt get used to driving on the "wrong" side of the road. Not to mention seeing waterbucks,reebocks and stenbocks jumping out in front of you. I saw a post on raod kill...how would you like to see a dead wildebeast on the side of the road??? freaky, I tell ya.

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

"Is Black Rule Better?"

Now why is that funny?  

Was West Texas originally in habited by the [s]Apache[/s] Commanche?  

I mean after they kicked somebody elses's ass out of there?

Could not possibly be better.

Even my Marxist, (black)Kenyan college professor was embarrassed by the absurd level of misrule and corruption in Africa.

His only defence was to complain that the European Colonials split out of the Dark Continent before they had properly "trained" the blacks to rule.  
Wwwaaahhhhhhhh, we aren't competent to rule ourselves.
No kidding.  Whose damn fault is that?

This brings back memories of talking to American liberals 10 or 15 years ago, about South Africa, and what WE should do about the white rule over there.

This wide-eyed liberal tells me, "Should we declare war on South Africa, and attack them!?"

"Well," I replied, "they have a couple of atomic bombs.  Which American cities are you willing to sacrifice to put *non-citizens* into power in RSA?"

Anyone else remember the liberal hysteria back then demanding we attack RSA?

-------
Justice for Stompie(sp?)."

-------
"With our boxes of matches and our necklaces..."  Winnie Mandela.

More like Commanche and Kiowa.

Ya, Commanche.  

That's what I said.