I got my MCSE for NT 4.0 three years ago, now they have a new certification for Windows 2000, but this is not the point, in two years, there will be another network platform called the Windows 2002 .net coming out, that will be another platform.  Screw Microsoft, I am going to get a Cisco sert and bone up on UNIX.  The bi-yearly upgrade is killing me.  

I need more money to buy more guns.  What a sick revolving wheel.

Any chance the place you work will pick up some of the tab? My boss will purchase the training, but I have to pay for tests. Works well.

If they can't cover the whole cost of a MCSE, how about a percentage? When I got my MCSE in NT 4, the company I was working for picked up 25%. I got a loan through Sally Mae, the same people who offer student loans. They do offer loans for training. [url]http://www.salliemae.com/index.html[/url]

Worked out well.

Av.

Just be thankful they extended the deadline for the cutoff on 4.0 cert... [:D] I'm holding off on the 2000 cert since by the time .net comes out we won't even have made it fully to Win2k...

just be glad you didnt learn msdos 2.1  or mvs/system 360 like the back of your hand. eventually we'll ALL be dinosaurs.

If I don't pass my accelrated exam offer by Microsoft, then I will just pass one 2000 test and hang on to the MCP 2000 title untill the .net comes out.  

I ma 36 and in a field full of young kids, I feel like a dinosaur.

Thanks for listening to my bitching.  I hate studying, I will be taking the upgrade test this Friday, i am doing it for the experience, I don't think I prepared enough to pass it.

I got my company to budget funds for classes next year, but I will spend it on Cisco class.  

Thank guys.

Hey if you know MVS/360 like the back of your hand, you can get a good high paying job. Those systems are still in use in a lot of places (more workload is moving to mainframes now with Linux). It's not easy for the average PC programmer to get those types of skills.
It should be easier for you to pick up those PC skills which are not difficult.

Windows XP is a toy compared to Z/OS (formerly known as MVS).

WTF?!?! So you hate Microsoft because they continue to refine and advance their technology platform. Doing so requires that you continue to advance your personal tech skills? Come on. That is a crock of pootie. Nobody should have to learn new technology. We should all be using VT220s on a token ring and storing everything on punch cards.

Seriously dude... learn to love self-paced CD ROM training. Then it's only what... $70 bucks for the cert test? Hell, the local public library has MCSE/MCSD CD ROMS for check out in my neck of the woods. What's the total out of pocket cost for the Core 4 for the tests? $300?

Listen up... attorneys, realtors, insurance agents, doctors, and many other professions are required BY LAW to take a certain amount of continuing education every year. $300 is maybe the cost of 1/2 day course for these people. $300 for the core 4 test fees is a drop in the bucket when you consider the average increase in salary for an MCSE is $12K from day 1. Sounds like a deal to me.

Unless you are one of those people who can only possibly learn by having some wannabe pretender trying to be a tech standing in front of a classroom reciting a script. I mean... TechSkills or New Horizons instructors are total idiots.

Quit whining.

Being a MCSE in NT 4.0 and just finishing my 4th or 7 exams to be certified in 2000 a few days ago, I will say I agree with some of your concerns, BUT, the .net platform will have almost same network arciticure as 2000. Alot of graphical changes and security is more of concern. The upgrade path to .net from 2000 mcse will be NOTHING like the upgrade path from NT 4.0 to 2000.
NT 4.0 is completly %100 different under the hood then 2000, thats why the upgrade path is so nasty. I am actually installing a beta 3 release of .net server as we speak at work.
I'll keep you all posted on this thread of what I find. Also, alot of the electives in 2000 are transferrible to .NET, it won't be THAT bad.
Its funny, .NET is in BETA 3 and my guess is only %25-%35 people have upgraded their servers to 2000, its amazing how microsoft is doing things. I will be getting familiar with Linux shortly though. I also feel strange knowing that my income relies on one certain company.
I am only 22 but I've spent my last 3-4 years doing nothing but computers and microsoft.

Bla Bla bla, I always ending up telling my friggen life story when I respond to threads on this website. [%|]


Sorry for the spelling, the spell checker ins't working on this site. DEAL!

I know this is a bit OT from the thread, but the respondants to this thread seem to be the ones to ask:

Is it true that the new windows software will allow others (read FBI, Microsoft, etc...) to track users internet habits?

The MCSE for NT4.0 will remain on your transcript forever.  Microsoft has reversed their position on retiring the certification.

I'm just taking the 70-240 exam because it was free.  If I pass, great, I only need 3 more exams for the MCSE for W2K.   I like the fact that this technology is always on the move.  

This industry is never static, there's always something to change, update, or rebuild.  

The cost for my exams were $100 each and Microsoft is raising their prices to $125 next year.  If you pass the 70-240 accelerated, that saves you $500 right off the bat.

I'm taking my exam this Friday, the 21st.  Most of the testing places in my area are closed for the week of 24 - 30.

If I don't pass, fine, I have my CCNP, (CCIE written) to go on.  

Regards and good luck to you.

A cert is just a cert.  It's only $100 a test for MS certs.  I let my NT4 MCSE expire and had to take 7 tests(I did the MCSE+BDA, A.K.A. MSDBA that's why it was 7 tests).  If you played your cards right, you would have only had to take a single, easy test to maintain your MCSE.  In case you haven't figured certs out...
It's not the fact you got one...It's the maintaing of your skill set the employer is looking for.  Remember the MCSE is an entry level cert.  The only exception being the newer security certification path perhaps.

If you know your networking, by all means get your Cisco done.  Your not going to be able to do one of those 2 week boot camps and get a REAL Cisco job.  Not being a prick, just saying you better have some understanding of routing, and not just TCP/IP basics.  Don't settle for the CCNA, it too is entry level.  I did the CCIE and I can admit it has openned a few doors.

But be prepared to recertify on a regular basis.  If you simply don't like or do well on tests then it's gonna be a little tougher to do.  But the difference in compensation is well worth the suffering.  
In the end though, it is going to boil down to EXPERIENCE.

Small piece of advice:

If you are going to take some sort of instructor led classes, make sure that the school is affiliated with a local university or college.

Typically these classes will let you earn college credits.  College tuition is tax deductable in certain circumstances.

Just to look at the "contra" side for a minute.  
The more the requirements the fewer who will certify/recertiy.
The fewer who certify/recertify the better it is for those few who do.
Under any conditions get the Cisco cert.
Screw Unix.
(My $.01)

I passed the XP Professional test 2 weeks ago, in order to maintain my MCP status.  
Although I hardly ever do server/desktop admin, it just feels good having accomplished it.  (I do routers and switches because it pays better.)

Definitely go get the CCNA.  It nevers hurts to have certs.  I personally feel that having a few certs in multiple areas is better than super-specialized cert paths.  

Works for me anyway.   Stay motivated!  

~smug  (CCNA + MCP)

I am whinning, I figure I have the right to since i am studying for my 240 exam. Microsoft is not advancing the tech, they are just trying to make more money, form user and tech like us. I don't see Cisco changing their cert every two years.  so Cisco is my next step.  

I took a New Horizon class for 240 exam, it is definitely a freaking rip off.  It did not prepare me for the test at all.  30 hours wated. well, maybe 25 hours wasted.  Only high point is my office paid for it.

Cisco does change their requirements / exams, just not as fast.  CCNP's need to get recertified every 3 years.  CCIE's need to take a recert written exam every 2.

I'm studying for the 70-240 now as well.

Welcome to the Club!

Here's a hint for you: Get a Mac and go MS-free! I am and I love it! WAY less aggravation.

Better yet, install Linux and go open-source!  Way less aggravation AND free software!

Ah yes, Macs make such wonderful data center servers. [rolleyes]

I got my MCSE in '98 and will not be updating.
Most of my employers don't put much stock in the MCSE since the boot camps and Transcenders started churning out paper dolls by the truckload.  The only ones who seem to care about MS certs are the VARs.

I'm really burned out on Microsoft and all the attendant BS, and don't ever again desire to work with their OS's for a living.

Everything we use where I work is Unix, and it think it will always have a strong presence in the enterprise.  Knowing some flavor of Unix well will almost always help you.

Thank goodness I spend all day working with routers & switches and don't have to futz with service packs, blue screens and viruses anymore.  It's done wonders for my blood pressure.

I agree with those that said that the certs are worthless. There are more paper MCSE's out there now that don't know squat.

I have been with Mickysoft for over 10 years now (from NT 3.1 beta days). I have seen so many MCSE's out there that don't qualify for entry level admins. It is disgusting. I am also seeing more employers that are passing on the certified people and hiring people with experience. And if they do get people with certs, they put them in a help desk position.

One piece of advise that I would like to give to all those "admins" out there (be it MS, Unix, Novell, etc) is to learn how to diagnose problems. Especially wierd problems.
Learn to be a detective.
Learn what tools/sites out there that have solutions to odd problems.
Learn to navigate quickly around the O/S without a damn mouse.
Learn about other programs that don't come from O/S vendor that help to recover a dead system.
Learn that there are other ways to fix a system other than "rebuilding" the system.
Learn how to get other O/S's to talk to each other (MS to Unix, Unix to Mac, Mac to MS, MS to VMS, Stratus to MS, etc).
Learn other O/S's, at least the basics.
Learn how to teach others quickly and effectively about an O/S.
Learn how to hack into a system.
Learn how to SECURE a system.
Learn how to SECURE a system (really, learn this).

Remember that there is always someone else that knows more than you do, USE THEM as a resource.

Exactly! That's because the fundamentals of routing and IP protocol remain constant year after year where as Microsoft is constantly rolling out new platforms.  While one team is finishing up on Windows 2002.net, another three group is busy working on Windows 2005 and so on.  When was the last time you heard of a major update in the tcp/ip stack? I haven’t!  

CNE from Novell was considered industry standard long before MCSE became ubiquitous.  Look what happen to Netware now?  With Microsoft or any other certifications for that matter, one must be keep current with the changing technology or you will find yourself in the bottom of the totem pole very quickly.  

About five to six years ago when the NT market was young and dumb, an NT guru could have easily commanded a low six-figure salary in any tech heavy cities.  What’s more, you didn’t even need a cert back in those days to make that kind of money.  Case in point: one friend I know who had little experience five years ago claimed he knows NT and CISCO and ended up bullshiting his way into $95K a year job.  His consulting firm was senting him around the country to client site, and he had no idea what he was doing.  One time he told me his client asked him point blank “Do you know what you are doing”?  Good thing for him other techies from his company got along with him, and they used to talk him through a job via phone support.

This is not going to work these days as firms are more diligent in screening their candidates.  The market is flooded with both experienced and paper MCSE.  As a result, salary for network administrators /engineer have declined over the past three years while the increasing demands in both skill set and work hours have continued to rise.  Think about it: techs who are responsible for mission critical support are on call 24/7, coupled with reading technical material during off hours just to stay on top of their game.  Do you feel you are properly compensated when taken everything into consideration - your free time, the stress, the long hours?  I personally do NOT see the return on investment by keeping my certs current unless my employer is flipping the bill for training.


The thoughts of younger techs nipping at your heels are a bit disconcerting, but I won’t worry about that.  Information Technology only became hot during the last 10 years, and it is still relatively young industry.  There will be more dinosaurs like us as the industry matures.   The thing to keep in mind is NOT to go into an area where the rest of the techs are heading.  I see this same mistake where people are now setting their eyes on CCNA.  In another couple of years, those once respected certs will be a dime a dozen.

I value my time and like to enjoy a worry free weekend; therefore, I’m beginning to transition myself away from the technical role and into a strategic role.  Technical positions that continue to pay well are applications development, database administration, infrastructure (packet switching, Sonet, x.25, frame rely and etc.), UNIX, security, and managerial.  The key to remain on top of the IT game is to have a diversified skill set so that a major shift in technology doesn’t render you obsolescent.  

.

While most company relies of senior helpdesk personnel to get the new recruits up to speed, help desk is the worst place for anyone without hands on experience to start.  How can the helpdesk help someone when the person giving the advice needs more help than the caller?   Nonetheless, this is what I have seen in most corporations.  Helpdesk is the equivalent of kindergarten of learning.

The helpdesk is also the filtering department. Either you make it through, or you burn out. At least that is what I have heard management say.

The only problem that I have seen with this, is that most of the time those that don't do well in the helpdesk, get promoted! WTF? People that don't know anything get promoted to a position that they really should know something. Aaaarrrggghhhh.

This is why I am a currently a volunteer for unemployment. I finally hit burn out at my old job and am now sitting on my butt and enjoying life! No more 24x7x365 oncall, no more pager, no more cell phone. No more late nights trying to fix someone elses mistake while managment is screaming that the system has to be up NOW! No more having to explain to my peers that their idea for a fix is bad, and having them ignore my advice, then to find out that I was right the first time.

Life is good [:)]

You're gonna hate me but
I passed 240 :p

Me too...I've been collecting unemployment insurance since August.  The market is extremely soft at the moment.  Even my recruiters are being laid off.

I'm a VP IT for a company, and as a person who hires folks in IT, I will tell you that most of the so called certification programs are crap.  Technicians need to have a base of solid technical knowledge, and more importantly be able to apply their current knowledge base to new technologies, without continous training on such mundane crap as WIN 2000 vs NT 4.0. If you know NT 4.0, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out 2K.

This is accomplished by reading, reasearching, and experimenting with new technologies, not sitting in some class listening to some dude who is effectively teaching you how to answer questions on a test.

I've been doing this stuff for 23 years, and I survive because I adapt, and I stay on top of the technology by implementing it, not going to classes 4 times a year.

BTW, I hate M$ too, but mostly because of their nasty licensing practices, that continue to worsen as they incease their stranglehold on corporation.

haha yep.. it's funny most people who adore their Macs use them for nothing other than email and web browsing, and occasionally photoshop.  

Depends on what you mean by aggrivation, which to me means spending all day looking for a damn FAQ file that is hundreds of pages long, to figure out the obscure cryptic code I need to change in a config file that is thousands of lines long, to make one little config change.  Or how about the convenience of recompiling the OS/HTTP server/etc. when you need different features.  Ha!  If Microsoft shipped Win 2000 with a compiler just to make the damn thing work can you imagine how much crap they would get.

Ah, just a young pup - welcome to the world of aging gunfighters [:)]


Smart decision - network and security guys seem to be the thing now, and going forward for a bit.

Being ten years older than you, I liken it to the aging gunfighter - similar to 'The Shootist' or one of those old films.

You got the 'young guns' coming up behind you gunning for your position, and you've got to stay one step ahead of 'em through skills, etc... After all, they've got the stamina to pull the all nighters still, and I'l getting to the point where I need about two days downtime after a complete all-nighter.

To me, [b]you[/b] are that 'young gun' I need to watch out for [;)].  Good luck.

I haven't run into it yet, but at some point, I'm going to run into the 'grey ceiling' - unadmitted bias against older IT guys. (thank goodness I look a lot younger than I am)

Good luck with your certs.

This's how I tell the professional killer, from the paper young buck.

That's like placing the cart in front of the horse.  Just because someone knows how to navigate with keyboard doesn't say a whole lot.

rlitt,
You might be right.
But have seen boot camp people exposed with Alt-F4 or Alt-Enter (flaky kvm).

I am an MCSD.  My buddy is taking the single upgrade test in two weeks to upgrade his NT 4.0 MCSE.  He has to drive to Sherman, TX to take the test because every single testing center in Dallas/Ft. Worth is booked up due to the deadline.  

I too am a little overwhelmed with the pace of change at Microsoft.  Being a developer and proficient in Visual Studio 6.0, I am faced with a large change in learning Visual Studio .Net.  On the plus side, the new dev tools are much more powerful.  VB.Net is a true object-oriented environment.  ASP.Net will compile to binary on the server thus greatly increasing performance.  Strong type checking and garbage collection means fewer errors, more efficient applications, and an end to memory leaks.  

Regarding Unix...   It has a valuable place in computing.  When you compare the multi-processor capabilities of Unix it is the best answer for a high-demand system such as I would run a DBMS from.  What most Unix snobs fail to realize is that most companies don't need it.  And if it were a simplicity contest Unix wins every time.  When it comes to usability and adding value to a company's IT infrastructure, explain why Microsoft has cornered the market.  Why has NT/2000 been the OS of choice for most companies for the past several years?  If unix is the be-all end-all solution then why after over thirty years of existence is Unix not the flavor of choice?  The OS is not about what the admin wants to work with so much as what a company can do with it.

I work in web hosting and Unix is by far more susceptible to hacking.  IIS comprises 85% of the hosting market.  As such it is targeted much more frequently.  Microsoft has the unique ability for a corporation it's size to recognize it's products shortcomings and address them with new technology.

No I don't work for Microsoft.  I am just seasoned enough to recognize value despite what the techie wants to play with.

Actually I disagree. You end up learning the keyboard becuase the damn mouse has died because of the KVM switch the company bought is crap, and you are not allowed to reboot the system because it is processing data into the SQL database. But you need to make a config change because when the data is in the database, it needs the updated config change before it can proceed. Oh, yea... users are still needing to access the data while all this is going on.

Also, decent admins know that mouse is hinderance. It slows you down, plus you end up learning the "sneeky" way to do things. It also shows that you able to think "outside the box", i.e. doing things differently.

On a personal side note: If you really want to piss of a decent admin, install PcAnywhere on the server for remote administration. Good admins know how to admin a system without being on console (even updating the Network configuration).

That's what "grep" is for. [:D]

Yeah, I hear ya.  But in my experience, the OS only needs to be recompiled after a hardware change (infrequent), and the various packages can be compiled initially so that they have all the features you could possibly want -- they'll just run a little slower because they're using more memory.  In other words, Linux and the various packages CAN be dumbed-down so that nobody ever needs to touch them, they just aren't because if they were, Linux would run as sluggishly as Win2K.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  It is essential for systems admin to navigate without the aid of a mouse.  All I'm saying is that anyone could go into windows help file to learn the short cuts; however, it doesn't say much about their overall knowledge.



Pcanywhere is OK if you like the redundant task of installing to every single remote host and every client you might use to control that host.

Try VNC [url] http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/[/url]

It only needs to be loaded from the remote host, and you could remote in from any machine with a web browser using IP and port address.  Moreover, it only takes up 120+K to load where as Pcanywhere hogs up almost 2 MB of running memory.  Another plus...VNC is a freeware that runs on both Unix and Windows.

VNC is nice, but last I checked it didn't work with the NT Security Manager, meaning no way to remotely control unless the console was already logged on and unlocked.

IBM's NetFinity worked pretty well, and M$ SMS 2.0 Remote Control ain't half bad if you are on a high speed LAN, but it stinks from a modem.  The W2k terminal services are great for remote access - greatly improved speed over a 56k line.

Hey Guzzler,

What is the deal your email?  It keeps bouncing.

Send me a line sometime.

I was playing with VNC, I have it loaded on my remote computer, I figure since someone in NC calls in for some tech service, being in CA, I can use VNC to see what exactly they are doing wrong.  As far as remote admin, it will not work even if the computer is locked.  

If I don't pass the 240 tomorrow, I will just take the professional test and be a 2000 MCP, my main goal is to get a cisco cert next year, and maybe a exchange cert also.  

I found the experience a must in job search, when I first got out of school, I was soooo very lucky to find a net admin job, took my training and moved on to another company.  Thsi company I am at is only a 200 users enviroment, I do everything here, up to keeping the phone system running.  I always laugh at the tech school commercials, there is thousands of jobs available, your job is waiting for you, just sign up and you will be on your way to making x amount a year.  I laugh and laugh, what a rip off.

It'll work so long as you have administrative rights to that machine.  If you can’t physically access the console to install VNC, you could extract the VNC source files off of another machine and remotely copy to the target machine coupled with importing a registry update via "regedt32.exe".  Then you could remote reboot using "shutdown.exe" (this file could be found in your windows resource kit).
BUT YOU STILL NEED ADMINISTRATIVE RIGHTS TO DO THIS.

There's an entire article on [url]http://www.windows2000[/url] that explains how this is done - I think the issue was March or April, 2001




Yep....SMS is certainly one of the best enterprise software for package distribution, inventory, and remote help desk.  The learning curve can be a bit steep with SMS

SMGLee,

You might want to check out some brain dump sites for recent test questions.

Good luck on your exam tomorrow!

Good luck on the CISCO cert. The CCNA is easy, CCNP much harder but not too bfad if you are very strong in WAN technologies (every known media), Every aspect of IP from TCPIP to DHCP, ATM, etc, etc. Now the bear comes along, CCIE. This will break your back if you don't study your ass off for about a year. Almost guaranteed you'll fail the certification performance test the first time (ALL hands on). The written side is not too bad IF you, like I said earlier, study your ass off. You'll be lucky to pass the hands on the second time around but it can be done. I flunked the CCIE twice and got it on the third try. Take my advice. See if you can get your hands on a CISCO 2500 series router (2 would be even better) to practice on. Make yourself a network and learn that puppy inside out, backwards and forwards. I did that after the second failure (I work for DOD and had access to the routers and various media) and just aboout aced it the third time. After you're done, youo are a member of the elite few that possess a CISCO CCIE and you can write your ticket. I chose to stay with DOD since I'm only about 6 years away from retirement. That, with my military retirement I can relax, do some design and consulting and just plan ass enjoy myself. GOOD LUCK!
[peep]

Go for the Cisco ticket. Too many M$ paper tigers out there....

|

That has got to be the funniest thing I have read in a while...

SMGLee: Man, I feel your pain.  I'm almost 53 and have been doing the constant computer retraining thing for 33 years.  I'm an expert in dead computer languages and obsolete systems.  Sorry, but it never gets any better.  I understand your frustration, but that is life in our career field.  We have a couple of "paper" MS certified professionals here too.  They are useless in the real world.  I have survived by working hard and making use of my depth of experience.  I'm not the fastest but I get it done right the first time.  If 36 is a dinosaur, I must be an amoeba.  I prefer the old gun fighter/professional killer image. There is some truth in the comparision.  
Watch-Six   P.S. We all hate Microsoft.

That's one of the funnier things I have read in recent times.

Macsters just won't give up.  What are you guys going to do when Apple folds next year?

Dude...A decent Admin would NOT let you install PC Anywhere.    A paper MCSE would let do it you cuz he would have no idea what was going on.

But no REAL admin is going to tolerate that type of rookie crap.

So is using PC Anywhere your idea of being a buff network settings changing Admin?

That ain't shi*t.  I hope I misunderstood you, and your not one of the guys we have been ripping up here???

And what indication is there that the Apple is going to fold? Absolutely none. In fact, Apple is the ONLY computer company doing well despite the economic hard times. Dell is laying off people, and so is Gateway. Apple has Millions of dollars on hand, and they are prospering. We have been hearing how Apple is going to die for the past tens years, and yet, somehow it never happens! And now with the Power of MacOS X, Apple is taking off!

No, using PC Anywhere does NOT make you a buff admin. Makes you into a lazy, not caring admin. I don't like remote console apps. I was out voted by other paper MCSE's. It really pissed me off. I was one out of 200 admins after the re-org.

Now I do understand that there are times when you do need console access to maintain a poorly written app (one that doesn't run as a service, don't ask... they exists and suck big time). For those situations I would recommend "Control IT". It used to be "Remotely Possible". I really liked it because it was small (it used to fit on a floppy) 1000 times faster than PCAnywhere, didn't interfere with with alot of applications. I haven't gotten to play with the new version, but I understand that it now uses the SAM for user authentication. But when CA bought it, the pricing went to hell, and their support really went down hill. But just looking at the application itself, it was nice.

But PC Anywhere (in my personal opinion) is a memory hog, CPU gobbling, Bandwidth eating piece of shit (pardon my French).

Other than that, for Win2k, Terminal service ROCKS!! I haven't been that impressed in a long time. It is snappy enough to use under a 56k dialup. The only bad part is it makes a good admin lazy. [;)] Thank god M$ got smart and licenced it from Citrix.

Very good, my son. You have seen the light, and it is good.