[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/592854/posts[/url]

This is a complete crock of shit. This kind of stuff just makes me [b]want[/b] to fly a Confederate flag, if for no other reason than to piss people off. These guys died fighting and believing in what that flag stood for. The least they could do is fly it over their grave.

And before anybody goes off and starts calling me a racist because I happen to believe in what the Confederacy stood for in regards to states rights with less federal interference in citizens daily lives, please study up on the matter first.

They died under that flag, while trying to destroy the United States of America. Where is the Bill of Rights in the CSA's Constitution.

As far as racism, I don't think it originally represented that. However in the '60's when the civil rights movement was going on SC pulled the State Confederate Flag out and started flying it on State buildings, after and absence of 100 years, and after the KKK was using the flag as a symbol. What message do you think they (official SC) were trying to get across?

I don't [b]even[/b] want to discuss this!

Eric The(Sorry,ButMyMind'sMadeUp)Hun[>]:)]

The same as the first time the flew it?  We don't like federal government influence in our lives.z

You mean the federal government wanting the Consitutional Right of all citizens protected?
How dare the federal government try to interfere in race based discrimination.

Funny a lot of people post Consitution this and Constitution that, but when someone elses Rights are violated, some of you find excuses why that is ok.

Zoom, I think you posted about your experiences in the civil rights era, have you considered why the State of SC chose that period to start flying a Confederate style flag again?? It would be a lot less of an issue if they had been displaying that type of flag since 1865, but they weren't.

It only represents racism, to those idiots who choose it.[img]http://web-comm.com/ar15/sigpics/ar15staff5.gif[/img] Looks like a symbol of Southerners standing up for their rights, via the Second Amendment, to me.

I am not quite sure I understand the meaning of the above. However I would like to point out that the CSA had a Constitution and a Bill of Rights. I would also like to point out that prior to the outbreak of the Civil War: Slavery was legal below the Mason Dixon line, as well as being legal in the Northern states if a Black person's Parents or Grandparents were slaves.

I would also like to point out that the 13th and 14th Amendments were ratified in occuppied Southern States by a Legislature that largely existed because White Southerners were not allowed to vote also the States had military Governors.

I am NOT being an Apologist for the South or for Slavery. But what the North did to South during the Reconstruction was NOT by any means constitutional. Also while not explicitly stated it is implicit within the Constitution and the writings of the framers of the Constitution that the States do indeed have a right to seceed from the Union.

Post from OLY-M4gery -

I said I didn't want to discuss this, until I saw this cocakmamie crap!

If taking their states and going out on their own is an attempt to destroy the United States of America, then I suppose that's precisely what they did.

But if you consider that they were under the impression that they should have been able to recede from a purely voluntary association, then they were not trying to 'destroy' anything, but simply to depart in peace. The USA would and could have continued without them!

And insofar as the Bill of Rights under the Confederate Constitution, they didn't need one! The rights were contained in the body of the document and not the result of a compromise as was the federal constitution!

See Section 13 of Article I -
"(13) A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Makes you want to cry now, doesn't it!

BTW, Both Houses had to vote by 2/3 margins to pay anything from the Confederate Treasury!

Now that's nice!

So OLY-M4gery WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM NOW?

Want to see where firearms ownership is exalted?  Visit the Former Confederacy, Baby!!!!!!

Eric The(GoToHell,ButIMeanThatInTheKindestSinceOfTheTerm)Hun[>]:)]

I fly my flag and anybody that don't like it can kiss my ass!
The Feds,The cops,the old fart who lives on the corner,Some punkassed kids,You or anybody else, Just try and haul it down!!
Long wave Old Glory!!!!!!

Wrong again.  The CSA withdrew from the Union and wanted to be left alone.  They weren't out to [i]destroy[/i] the USA.  The USA was trying to destroy the CSA.

[img]www.dixienet.org/images/animated/ani-csa-flags/new_3rdcsa_ani.gif[/img]

If they are gonna take the conferdrate battle flag out of the historical record, they need to go all the way and completely sanitize history so it is COMPELTELY PC.

Let's just eliminate ALL MENTION of the Confederacy from historical accounts of the Civil War.

We can just say all the union troops got together for a big ole' Southern pig shoot and barbeque, where a few Southers accidentally got shot.

The Confederate battle flag IS the Confederacy. You might as well remove the accounts of teh Confederacy from the Civil War, as to  remove their battle flag.

This bait and switch by teh Leftists of associating the Conf. battle flag with racism is only a dress rehersal for the REAL fight - associating gun owners and God-fearing folk with Naziism.

Oddly, we ALREADY here echoes of some of that even here, in this forum.

[img]http://web-comm.com/ar15/sigpics/ar15staff5.gif[/img][-!-!-][img]http://web-comm.com/ar15/sigpics/ar15staff5.gif[/img][-!-!-][img]http://web-comm.com/ar15/sigpics/ar15staff5.gif[/img]

Well there is a procedure for becoming a State, there is no procedure for leaving the Union. Also it wasn't a peaceful exit, something about firing on Union troops at Fort Sumter, after they left Fort Moultrie voluntarily, with woman and children. Fort Sumter was still under construction and the cannons for the fort were crated up.

Like I posted I don't think it originally represented racism. We can get into the causes of the Civil War, taxes, voting, expansion of slavery, States Rights etc. I don't think it is productive.

Unfortunateley the KKK adopted the CSA battle flag as a symbol for thier idealogy after the war. SC didn't help itself by decding to fly a similar flag while US citizens who live in SC were trying to make sure that they could freely execise their Rights as guaranteed by the US Constitution. SC started flying the flag knowing what else it represented.

I have no problem if YOU as an individual wish to fly a CSA style flag. I do think though that a government, US, State, or municipal should carefully consider what symbols it officially uses, as the governement should be by, of, and for the people, and the acts of governement should try to reasonably take the citizens sensitvities into account.

I personally don't think we should not allow CSA memorial flags to fly, even if it is in a federal cemetary. But I don't think it is unreasonable to consider the feeling that it might evoke from LIVING citizens.

Why OLY-M4gery, that's positively the most politically correct post I believe I've ever read on this Board!

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Eric The(It'sBetterToWrongTheDeadThanDiscomfortTheLiving)Hun[>]:)]

[-!-!-]





[img]http://www.fotw.stm.it/images/us-csanj.gif[/img]

Umm...no. They weren't trying to destroy anything. They simply wanted to make fewer states in the United States because they didn't agree with the way the federal government wanted their hand in everything. The south had a vastly different lifestyle than those up north, which is still evident today. Try comparing Texas to New York....you would be just as well comparing Texas to Sweden, the differences are so vast.


What does the decisions of the State of South Carolina in the 1960's remotely have to do with the confederate soldiers who died in the mid-1800's? Where does the KKK fit into this arguement, since the KKK was not even around during the Civil War? What does any of this have to do with honoring dead soldiers the way they would want to be honored? Civil rights should not even be a part of this discussion which is what pisses me off in the first place.

I don't mind someone having a different view than me, but if you would like to argue your point try using issues that actually pertain to the subject matter. It will make any arguement you may have [b]much[/b] stronger.

Ahhhh, so if gang bangers adopt the OLY M4-gery firearm as their symbol of murder and mayhem, I suppose gov'ts should change some of their policies as to whether police depts use the OLY M4gery as their firearm of choice, because some illegal scumbags act like illegal scumbags WITH an Oly????

After all, a police dept using the firearm of choice of gang bangers COULD cause some victims some emotional trauma.

[rolleyes]

If you a re gonna make the statement above, you HAVE to consistently apply that logic thruout your views on everything.

Wrong. Texas can leave the Union any time it's citizens decide that it's had enough of D.C.

Remember, we were our own country once upon a time.

What the CSA style flags represented in 1861, and what they represent today are 2 different things. I think you have to take into account what they represent TODAY when deciding how, when, or where, they will be flown in an area controlled by the gov't.

I think it is also sad that something like this even has to go to court.

well, this is one white, yankee, New Yorker that believes we should let history fly! (regardless of meaning)

The only thing that should be taken into account is how to best honor the fallen soldiers buried in the cemetary.

Who gives a shit if you or anybody else is offended by the flag? It isn't there to honor you or anybody else, just the dead.

I say, if the dead start bitching about it, [b]then[/b] we consider taking it down.

Or they could fly individual State flags represnting the States where the soldiers lived when they enlisted.

NO.

THAT is where you are wrong.

If we allow for you defintion of symbolisms, its but a SMALL step to the Leftists making the claim that NOW "assault weapons" represent ONLY death and warfare, and civilians have NO right to them.

We KNOW that "assault weapons" represent shooting competitions, collectability, but most importantly the means to liberty.

I refuse to let some Marxist twit re-define what my "assualt weapons" symbolize.

And I reject your or anyone elses re-defintion of what teh Conf. Battle Flag (CBF for purposes of discussion) actually represnts. It represents the Confederacy, an IMMENSELY imporatant political organization, both for our history, and for the direction our future will take.

It DOES NOT, and NEVER WILL represent racism.

You simply MUST take the "logic" you are using here, and extrapolate it to other scenarios and policies.

IF youi do that, you WILL quickly change your tune.

From my viewpoint, you have fallen trap to the Leftist mindset - you are SURE (i.e. you feel like) the CBF is wrong, now you must justify your postion by searching for facts. Apologies if I am misreading you.

But what about the state flags that have a depicion of the confederate flag on them?

Maybe we could just censor them and white out any offending parts to make acceptable viewing for all?


Where does it all stop????

Why can't they just fly the flag that they died fighting for?

Ever been to Guam?
There is a Japanese WW2 memorial there. Guess what flag they have flying? Yep, the Japanese flag. Hey, what a concept.

I could go on, but I think those of you that think that slavery, and the KKK's adoption of the CSA battle flag don't effect how people view the CSA flag are naive. And if you don't think that the Civil War was more than a little about slavery and how we treat our fellow man you are wrong.

Rich Southeners who had the power, money, and slaves, basically used the poor white Southeners to fight for the rich white Southeners property rights by making them believe that the US government was more intrusive than landowners who controlled 90% of the wealth of the CSA even though the represented a tiny fraction of the population, and THEY certainly weren't fighting in the front lines.

do any of you believe that the American flag belongs in Normandy?

if so, why?

what if the French decided that the US was a Capatalist, racist, war-mongering nation, and they took it down?

would that alone justify the erasure of everything these brave souls died for?

Why would someone who is offended by the Confederate Flag, go to a Confederate Cemetary anyway? More than likely to stir up trouble.

Hey, last thing we need to be doing is talking about the French, there are limits even here.

Oh, good, now the "class struggle" Marxism comes out.

Why am I not surprised/???

Well, lte me answer my own question -

Mostly because Marxism, class struggle, racism, rich v. poor, educated v. uneducated, black v. white, bourgeouise v. proletariat, etc etc is a package deal. If you see one, you'll eventually see the other.

You are clearly educated sir / ma'am - just educated by the wrong people. I'm serious - you are espousing Marxism. Not a flame - a fact.

I've seen it a thousand times if I've seen it once.

But then, I'm "naive." [}:D]

yes, exaclty

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You seem to become more uneducated about this subject with each post.

Do you really think the whole Civil War was about slavery? Have you seen the direction our country has taken in regards to rights and freedoms of it's citizens after the Civil War? Do you think about anything other than figuring out new ways to be less offensive?

You are one of the people I was referring to in my first post in regards to learning about the subject matter before starting in with the racist crap. Apparently you didn't read that far.

The Confederacy has absolutely nothing to do with racism. It was not based on slavery, like they try to teach you in school.

Oh, and exactly how did all of those "rich, white slave owners" talk all of the blacks into fighting that chose the side of the South? Why would they freely enlist to fight against those who simply wanted to free them? If you knew much on this subject other than what is reported on CNN you could answer these questions.

[:D]

That argument won't fly.  South Carolina couldn't fly it in the late 1800's.  We were occupied by an army, and most of our citizens were not allowed to vote.  Most of the discussion when the flag was raised in 1962 centered around recognizing the state's history.  The debate wasn't very different from the arguments on how much public money we spent to rebuild parts of cities the federal government had destroyed.z

How about a Lorcin? [:D]

Garandman give it up this guy is a lost cause. Noticed he is from Wisconsin, nuf said.

Why the KKK keeps being brought up still amazes me. If you look into it the KKK was a political organization that was against the Northern political figure put in power during reconstruction. It was not a racist organization at all. In fact they would "influence" the white locals and make sure they did not vote for the Northerners in power. The KKK actually was basically a dead organization until the early 1900's.  It was brought back to life because of a movie that depicted a white girl being assaulted by black men. That is how the KKK became a racist organization. Its original creation was soley for political reasons, and after they removed the Northerners from office they basically disappeared.

[beer]

So in a few more do I get to be a smart redneck?

You mean like the Jim Crow laws in the South, or not letting certain citizens vote, by various means, poll tax, literacy tests, etc. that were used in the South up until the '60's or the segreagated schools and Universities primarily in the South? I did but then again it's easier to hide your view in nostalgia and half truths than to actually admit the truth.

Try again you are ABSOLUTLEY WRONG. Slavery was the economic lifeblood of the South. The were farming miserable plots of land with labor intensive crops without automation. No slavery menat NO economy. Not to mention that in those day federal taxes were collected from the states based on population. The Southern states wanted slaves counted as 3/5's of a person for taxation purposes. They wanted slaves counted as 2/3's of a person for federal representation, House of Represetative. But the didn't consider slaves as human, they were property.



Many of the "Southern Blacks" were promised freedom if they served in the CSA military for a set period of time. Yes the Union promised freedom IF the US won, which wasn't a sure thing. The Union hadn't pledged to eliminate slavery until 1863 after Gettysburg. They had tried to keep slavery from spreading, and were legally obligated to return "run-a-way" slaves to the South prior to the war.

But I guess your OK with all that.

Gee, people are still unhappy over the Civil War/War of Northern Agression...they always will be.  

Northerner's say the South should just have eaten the tariffs the Northern industrialists wanted.  

Southerner's wanted to not be ruled by populations that did not reflect their lifestyles.

The North had slaves, so did the South.  The North treated their slaves worse...they called them the Irish or Chinese.  Work them to death under unsafe conditions...if one dies, replace him with a new "Mick or Chink".  Remember the old saying, "There's a Chinamin/Irishman for each railroad tie".

The South had the right to leave, the Federal Government had only those powers given it by the states.  The states could leave, it's in the Constitution.  

Lincoln was a very very bad man and a good tyrant.  He tried to lock up the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court because he ruled against his tyranny.  Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus, this way he could lock up thousands of his enemies if they said what he didn't like...this is how he guaranteed his reelection, he locked up newspaper editors/writers if they wrote something critical of his administration.  Not a good man...he enslaved free men and freed the slaves.  

Should the dead in VA cemetaries be able to have Confederate flags flying above their graves?  Don't think so.  In private cemetaries? Sure!

Is the Confederate flag insulting to blacks?  Don't give a damn.  They don't seem to worried if their racist music bugs whites...which is the more pervasive interruption of our lives?  A flag in a cemetary or some gang-emulated skank blasting out black "hate whitey" music everywhere?  I'll take the flag.

I've LIVED in both palces, and can ASSURE you poverty is equally prsent in BOTH the SOuth and the North. And oddly enuf, poverty correlates with LAZINESS pretty strongly.





Capitalism is based on cheap labor - the cheaper the  better.

Ah yes - "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."  --  V.I Lenin (or was that Karl Marx???)

Wealth thru Capitalism ain't exploitation - its the reward for hard work. Those MOST against capaitalism also AMAZINGLY equate to those most against personal hard work.




Oh, yeah. pounding a spike in the ground or carrying bricks requires a PhD.

No, the South was Agrarian in nature, due to the longer growing season. The North was industrial in nature due to the widespread presence of the raw materials and power sources prevalent there.

Dude, I love conspiracy theories as much as they next guy, but this one don't fly.

Actually the orginal KKK was a "gentlemens" orginization made up of many former CSA officers. It was a political organiztion, but it was disbanded when the founders felt it was becoming a racist organization. It was then "dormant" for some time. Then in the early 1900's a group with the same name and a differnt agenda was created.

Ahhh, a wise man among us.

Thanks for teh heads up.

My last post will be ....my last.

[:D]

Wow! Ummm..not quite. Let's dispell a few myths here shall we ?

(1.) The process of Secession wasn't simply limited to State Legislatures but actual Referendums were held and voted upon by the people (More specifically: Free Men) in the Southern States.

(2.) It is true (as it is now) that Wealthy families exerted a large influence on their state legislators. However, during the Secession Debates MOST Wealthy Slave owning families were OPOSSED to Secession. Instead it was people from the Upper-Middle Class and Middle Class who were pushing for secession.

(3.) Taxes were a HUGE issue for Secession. Though in all fairness, the Secession Delegates sent to each State Legislature used tactics that were designed to manipulate the legislators Emotionally. And in the Seccession Debate Papers you can find numerous references of the Federal Government wanting to free black Slaves, give them voting rights AND abolish laws prohibiting interaccial marriages.
To a Southernor at the time this was simply unacceptable. Because, Slave populations frequently exceeded white populations in some counties and slaves were illiterate and not thought of as being fully human.
Also the memories of bloody slave revolts (such as the one led by Nat Turner) caused many of these legislators to vote for seccession out of fear.

As to the causes of the Civil War, both sides are right. It was Slavery but it was also unfair Taxation and the encroachment by the Federal Government on State Governments Soveriegnity that led to the Civil War.

(4.) Many Rich Southern Families did indeed lose their sons on the battle field. Most of these families used their influence to get their son's spots as Commissioned Officers (primarily in the Calvery, since at that time it had the same sort of status as being an Fighter pilot is today).
Calvery units frequently lead frontal assaults and were frequently slaughtered. Many of the Officers in the vanguard leading these charges were cut down by grape shot, volley fire and gatling gun fire.

A final comment: The Stars and Bars should be flown on Civil War Cemetaries in addition to the Stars and Stripes. To do otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest about our history and culture. It is also an affront to those families whose ancestors fought and died in the Civil War. Also by NOT flying the Stars and Bars the wounds of racism and perceived racism by Blacks will take longer to heal.

oh boy are you peeps doing a good job on Oly...
my turn....How about recent history boyo, since the north is so right....bussing riots--over in my town since the 60's, but up north?
Slavery and intensive labor.....MY DAD PICKED
COTTON BY HAND....this ain't ancient history to me
Now ya wanna talk about the Tuskegee Airmen or blacks in WWI or Chicago riots......give it a rest, the north ain't lily white...and the founder of the KKK has a library in Washington
DC....aint that up north?

[blue] really, that new t-f-b must be doing the trick. [/blue]

When did the Union Army leave?? 1873 sticks in my mind. Why wasn't it flown in the 1880's, 1890's, 1900's, 1910's, 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, or the 1950's??? Certainly they could have "snuck" it up during WWI, or WWII, or perhaps after the last SC Civil War veteran passed. But no it just happens to go up AFTER the KKK started using the CBF as a synbol and during the civil rights movement.

Oly knows basically nothing about the South and he is clearly showing it here in his last few posts. Especially by busting out with the "redneck" insults. If he knew about the south he would know that many people don't consider the term "redneck" an insult at all.

He understands nothing about the culture or how we look at things like the Confederate flag. And just like before the Civil War he thinks that he should be able to tell us southerners what we can and can't do and what flags we can and can't fly from his little post up north.

I bet he would happily agree to allow the UN flag to fly at those same cemeteries though.

[img]www.fotw.stm.it/images/us-csanj.gif[/img]

No, what I'm saying is you must look at history objectively. The "North" isn't always right, but to make some of the claims about what the CSA stood for or did are just plainwrong, and not historically accurate.

Read my posts, like where I say YOU as an individual can fly the CFB if you like.... There's a difference as to what you as an individual can do and what a branch of the gov't SHOULD do.

I like how you bring up the UN attempting to be insulting and off topic. I could respond by saying something about the mismatched double wide  you live in but that would be off topic...[;)]