What do you think about this?

I have long had an interest in wilderness survival since I got the armed forces survival manual as a kid.  I love the outdoors and backpacking, and I've passed this on to my own kids.  Lately, I was toying with assembling a SHTF survival pack for the car.  BUT, whenever I take a hard look at it, I can't come up with a REALISTIC scenario for its use.

I spend a lot of time driving around/between the major metro areas of North Carolina.  When I think of survival scenarios, I just don't picture myself needing to live out in the wilderness for a week or month or longer.  Most of the area we live and travel is 80% rural, 20% suburban.  I'm almost NEVER in or near real wilderness.  So most of the stuff in a survival pack doesn't seem to be that useful.

When I think of REALISTIC survival scenarios, what I see is a pack full of stuff like: guns/ammo, money, maybe food/water containers, money...  What I don't see is: small animal snares, a trenching tool, fire building stuff...

I guess what I'm saying is that there's wilderness survival, and there's "everyday suburban/rural" survival.  And the two are quite different.

Do you know what I'm talking about???  I just dont see a "I'm lost in the woods" scenario.  I can see a certain give and take, like maybe the fire building stuff could be useful, etc.  But, there's probably stuff that can be left out.  For instance, do I really need a signalling mirror???  OTOH, if I did anticipate being in a true wilderness area, I would carry more of the traditional wilderness survival stuff.

So what do you think?  And what would you put in a non-wilderness survival pack?  If there are any Web sites out there that have explored this topic, I'd like to hear about them.

Agreed- the goal in my mind (living in earthquake country) is getting home.  My scenario is being stuck 1-2 days away by foot.  We depend on our cars to get us all over the place, but any major situation is going to cause pretty immediate gridlock here.  

Supplies can be pretty limited.  Cell phone, food and water for a day or two, good boots, warm and dry clothes, knife/gun/ammo, flashlight/batteries, collapseable bike (hate to walk all that way, ya know!).  I carry some camping type stuff (like water filter, tarp, paracord, shovel, etc.) because you never know what you'll need, and can't assume the real world will comply with your scenarios.  You can always leave what you don't need in the car when you head out, depending.

What else?

I keep a SHTF kit in my car, but it's in a regular school backpack. I designed mine around being stuck a day or two away from home.

Couple of flares, a med kit, some MRE packs and water. A couple of camping supplies, but nothing major.

Fire making supplies are always good. An hour long car ride is a long walk on foot. You may need to spend the night somewhere.

My kit has the basics, it's more of an emergency kit for the car than anything.

Av.

Ok.  Suburban survival 101:
1. You're going to need lots of gasoline.  It wasn't designed with fuel economy in mind.
2. When parking, you'll take up two parking spots.  It's just that big.
3. Lots of storage space in the back for gunz and womenz...

Oh.  We aren't talking about the BFSUV?

Nevermind.

[:)]

Viper Out

My urban survival kit that I keep in my car includes a few extra pairs of socks, broken in boots that I retired from daily wear, jacket, hat, warm pants, shorts, underwear a heavy duty bolt cutter for scrambling through fences and locks, trenching tool, couple of MREs, two large Evian bottles, flares and of course extra ammo.

Interesting post Carbine. Most of us are probably more likely to need urban survival skills than wilderness survival skills. Wilderness skills would be useful for someone who is active in outdoor sports such as hunting or hiking but they probably already have the basic skills for getting by in the woods.

After thinking about your post I would say the most valuable survival skills for urban or suburban survival would be to keep physically fit and stay proficient in combat handgun skills such as IDPA or IPSC. I probably should not have mentioned specific combat handgun sports because I don't want to start an argument over which one is better for real world situations. Either would be better than just going to a range ocasionally and shooting at bullseye targets.

As for staying in good physical condition I think it would be important to be able to walk 25 miles in one day if it became necessary. Anyone who runs 10k events ir could ride a bicycle for 50 miles could easily walk for 25 miles. That should get you home if all of the roads were jammed up.

My SHTF ruck is a Blackhawk Patrol Ruck - basically a 3 Day pack in O.D. They make 'em in Black as well - very usefull cost around $200 but it has pouches and attachment points for everything. I have a SOG SEAL 2000 knife on one side, giant MAG Light on the other. Includes extra set of clothing, wet weather gear, Weapons Cleaning Kit, Compass on Left Shoulder Strap, Gerber Applegate Folder on Right Shoulder strap, GI Poncho, Hammock/Survival Net, military strobe light w/ IR filter ( not sure if I really need this), Camelback that goes in interior pouch (100oz. model), basic firestarting equipment,and some other stuff I can't remember off the top of my head. I also have a complete medic bag, protective mask ( gas mask), plenty of mags, etc. I don't keep this in a vehicle presently ( stationed overseas) but will when I return stateside for good. I think whether you look at Suburban survival or wilderness there are a lot of common denominators. I would also recommend Local/International phone cards and local currency for urban/suburban areas. Phone cards are handy as hell.  

Urban Survival (or suburban) is probably a very realistic scenario for most of us.

Go over to Palidan Press and search for Ragnar.  He's got a great book on Urban Survival.

 It all depends on your definition of S.  The only weather related scenario that demands evacuation is a hurricane.  For every other natural disaster, you would be well off to stay put.  Water, shelter, and food, in that order.
 Man-made disasters are another story.  Nuclear accidents, HAZ-Mat incidents, and mass civil disobedience are all worthy of evacuation.  First would be have someplace to go.  If your relatives are also suburbanites, you really have nowhere to go.  The problem with any other emergency thatn short-term is that the extensive infrastructure needed to support the suburbs may not be functioning.  This is a real con of worms, and too extensive to address here.
 The car kit is useful in the event that, for whatever reason, you are forced to walk home.  Water is an absolute necessity, so water containers and means of replenishment are necessary.  I personally use a GI 2 qt. canteen and iodine tabs.  Extra clothing appropriate to the season should also be carried.  Food may or may not be necessary.  The US Army uses the rate of 2.2 miles per hour for dismounted troops, which is a safe average speed for foot travel.  This will give you an estimate of travel time on foot necessary to return home.  It would be safe to double your estimate of trael time to adjust for delays such as closed bridges, etc.  A USGS map and compass would be a good idea, in case you don't want to use the roads.

I always come up with two issues when I run this situation in my head.  Remember, we're talking about urban areas- well populated with BGs and the unprepared, and including various sorts of police/fire/military personnel.  

One issue is camoflague in an urban setting- I prefer camping equip. vs go-to-war gear because it's less conspicuous.  The exception would be the bright blue or red or other colors some of this stuff comes in nowadays.  That, and looking like a target by humping a big ol' backpack.  I guess light and fast is better, especially if a small daypack could carry all you need.  As was said, being able to do 25 miles in a day may be necessary, but being able to do that with 40# of gear is tough!

Visibility is a negative in my book.  Carrying an AR or alot of gear, especially dressed like GI Joe is gonna get you ALOT of attention fast in Los Angeles!  Especially given the kinds of neighborhoods you'll have to hump through if far enough away from home.

The other issue is the ethics of these situations-  when would it be OK to steal or hurt other people to get home or to safety?  Remember, most urban scenarios are short-lived (earthquakes, riots, hurricanes, etc.), and you'll have to live with/be accountable for your actions as life returns to normal.  Anybody who threatens you needs dealin' with,  of course.  But what do you do with the unprepared, the lost, or the injured you encounter?

AFAIK, these are issues unique to urban, vs. wilderness survival...

Map and compass... Of course!  Street maps and/or topos of the area might come in handy!  Walking 2.2 miles/hour (or less) is good info. on expected range...  my folding bike might speed things up a bit! [:)]

Every season change I reorganize my gear.  Being an avid hiker/camper/backpacker I've almost always got the basics together in one spot.  This season I've decided to orgainize my stuff in case we have a week long snow storm that shuts everything down.  A couple of years ago we had 11 inches of snow in one night.  Everyone knew it was coming and TOTALLY cleaned out the grocery stores and gas stations!  You couldn't buy a loaf of bread or a gallon or gas anywhere.  Scary shit!

The only major problem I see that could happen around here would be a huge snow storm and major power outage at the same time.  Problems include heat, water, food, first aid in that order.

Different seasons require different gear and preperation.  I don't have to worry very much about flash floods or tornadoes right now, but during the right time of the year its becomes a possibility.  

[url]http://www.fema.gov/[/url] has lots of good info for various scenarios.

There are a lot of different types of urban survival, but I'm just talking about one small aspect of it. Not so much the riots, hostile takeover stuff.
Ever since I was kid I have always been preoccupied with the notion of what would happen if I became homeless and to me that's alot like urban survival. Probably comes from some kind of insecurities but it has taught me alot too. Like when passing through different areas I'm thinking to myself "Right now, where would I: live, how could I get food to eat, how I could to stay clean, and I how would protect myself"?
For shelter there is so much infrastructure in and around highways, shopping centers, and the like with my favorite being the clover leafs with woods in the center of major highways. It provides concealment of it's underground drainage systems. Find some scrap lumber or pallets and make an elevated platform in one of the large concrete tubes incase it rains. Even has indoor plumbing from the run off passing below. During the off season or even just at night apartment pool houses have shelter, showers, and maybe a place to crash for awhile. A lot of athletic clubs will let you have a trial membership for a day that you can use to relax a bit, hit a sauna, and get cleaned up a bit too. My best tip is how to score breakfest for at least a few days. Almost every hotel has free continental breakfests. Go in a side door at 7:30-8:00am when things are real busy and grab a plate and have seat or take it back to your room (so to speak that is). The Residence Inn is the best for this. I promise no one knows who should be there and who's not. And they'll be too afaid to ask as they should know all of there guests but it's impossible to do. Drive thru mistakes happen all the time so be sure to go in and ask for what they forgot the first time around. I aways see old people hitting the dumpsters behind Kmart and Pharmacys getting expired bread and all kinds of other goodies.
I think a big walking stick would be the best compromise for self protection. I am hardly ever without a firearm, but in an homeless type situation I think they will be frequent run in's with the police. Jail is the last place I'd want to be during a WTSHTF. And for my last tip: when in an urban environment and lost your way look for satillite dishes as they always point to 181 degress. That's due south.

The good thing about 9/11 is that it made my Wife wake up and realize that when you need survival supplies it is often too late to get them and began inquireing more about my backround preparations for emergencies as well as freeing up funds for more high ticket items like a generator. Agian My biggest problem would be getting home without the car --probably a 2 day walk -and a river crosssing-- I figure the first day wouldnt be too bad just alot of confusion and such but the second day the oppourtunistic predators would be out especially with the few geographic choke points on my route home. Luckilly most of my route is wooded and contains a lot of game but I have some MRE's for the first 24-48 hours as well as boots, warm clothing,water,etc and I keep a CAI garand I got for cheep and fixed up in the cheokee with a few clips becuase as weapons go it is fairly innocuous --even to an LEO at a traffic stop wheras and AR or a FAL might freak one out the old GI gun they dont regard an evil black rifle in an area where hunting is still done regularly. The wifey and I also sat down and picked out a few spots where she would go if she had to bail out of the house or if I did not return in a specified time and she could wait no longer,and what she had to take.
This whole thing also convinced her to go to the range more and she is getting more and more comfortable with the Fal's and ARs (I'd post some pics in the real womenz w/guns bit but she wont let me photog her till she loses the weight from the baby).
but the basics would still be the same --Water,In an urban einviornment water sources will be quickly exhausted or contaminated.
Shelter, you can probably die from expousure just as quickly in a major city as you can anywhere else.
Food,We all gotta eat and there dont tend to be renewable food sources in a city so those that have will have to defend what they have from those that dont. Supermarkets will becleaned out quick inthe hours or a day after the shit hits so.....
Weapons and ammo (see above) and remember that emailing bushmaster for a replacement extractor will be impossible so spare parts might be a good idea although most of us already have more than one AR and some parts floating around.
Keep in mind in a nuc/bio/chem attack aftermath if a breakdown occurs in NYC say suddenly 16 million people will move south& west and north looking for food shelter and the like are you ready for them at your house ? mostly I am prepared to take care of the wife and children for a few months if nesscesary and maybe help out a few neighbors beyond that the world is on its own...I just have to make it to the house...

The most interesting idea I saw for Y2K preparedness was to keep a case of Jack Daniels........to use as trade goods or bribes.
Should apply to SHTF as well.

BTT!!!!  This is great stuff, better than I anticipated.  I need to read and absorb...

Anybody else?

I don't see the whole giant SHTF scene, just some drippy SHTF. A small crash then another. In many ways too many people can  not function unplugged from society. The grocery store is locked and empty, no gas at the  pumps for a day or two...they go nuts.
I plan to wait out any DSHTF at home, but I do want to be  able to get away if necessary. We have talked about getting a trailer for camping. I have thought it would be nice to be able to sit somewhere for a week might be good.
I have always had things ready to go, 15 minutes to pack and out the door. Anyone else think about a mobile camp, trailer or motorhome?

Suburban survival necessities:
I.D.
Credit Card
Cash
Cell Phone or prepaid phone card
Sunglasses
Wrist watch
Pocket knife or multi tool
Surefire flashlight
concealed firearm
LED keychain light
Chewing gun or breath mints
Bic lighter (even if you dont smoke)
Condoms
Aspirin & tums

Toilet paper Toilet paper Toilet paper

Ive said it before Ill say it again - toilet paper.

If you want to have any idea what a lack of toilet paper does to civilization, tool around rural eastern europe. Damn those Russians. Damn them to hell.

Luck
Alac

Sitting on a post apocalyptic Cottenelle gold mine.

Dean Ing---Pulling Through

Buy several copies...you will want everyone to have one.....how about build a radiation meter out of common household supplies?


editd cus I kan't spel

Kearny's a freakin genius

Big Al---I was hoping somebody shared my appreciation for this info.....I just reread pulling through this week....

There were violent confrontations around here after 9/11 when a few local stations decided to bump up prices.  Imagine what would happen if there were no tanker trucks rolling into town for a week or two.



Waiting at home is your best bet for 99.9999999% of all probable events.  Notice I didn't say possible but probable.  And you've got a good idea about getting away from the chaos.  But what happens when your truck/car runs out of fuel?  You're not going to drag your camper with a bicycle are you?  Lots of sled dogs maybe?  I like to backpack and camp so my view is a maybe little skewed.  I think you should be able to walk anywhere carrying all the necessitites on your back or [i]at the most[/i] in a small cart.  And a camper greatly limits the areas where you can bunk down for a night.  I'm talking on or very near roads.  What happens when the mass exodus from the cities figure out what you're already planning to do?  They'll be traveling right by your nice camper wondering how much food and water you've got stored in it.  All it takes is one properly motivated group and your camper is theirs.  Carrying all your stuff on your back makes it easier to blend in with the starving masses, takes up less space, and is for the most part human powered.

The average person while traveling by foot can survive quite well with less than 40lbs of gear and food for at least a week in the bleakest of conditions.  That is unless you're in the summer desert and need more water than usual.  If you have a method to procure more food you can survive almost indefinetely with this.

Heres an example from this months Backpacker magazine.  Brian Robinson, 40 yrs old, walked 7,371 miles so far this year averaging about 200 miles per week for 294 days.  His summer pack weight without food or water was a whopping 14 pounds.  He lost no body weight during this time.  In the winter I figure you can double his pack weight.

Take away your TV, stove, bathroom, couch, microwave, tub, car, etc, etc, etc... and you can walk anywhere.  

BTW, it cost him about $10,000 to live like this for a year.  I personally spent almost $9,000 in rent alone during this time.  It makes you wonder.

Anyone remember Howard Ruff and the 'Ruff Times'
Invest in Toilet paper and spark plugs!

All true Muad Dib, but I have a wife and 4 month old....it is 40 lbs to go to the store with the baby.
I would go to an area that was safer than my home. With 2 30# LP tanks and solar panels I could stay invisible for 2 weeks. Enough time for society to decide one way or the other.
Also a hose and pump can find gas in a station that is out of electric.
I  am thinking of getting a Chevy Tahoe, and putting in auxilary tanks also 4 5 gallon cans on the bumper of the trailer. I can just pump it out of my car that will be sitting.
maybe 500 or so miles.
An 18 foot trailer would be fine for the 3 of us, well maybe 4 if the cute neighbor girl wants to go......

Muad dib.....ya got to read Pulling Through...
that situation is laid out and solved.....

The Complete Walker by Colin Fletcher is the bible of backpacking. It is the old testament but it has everything you need to know to hike short or long distances. There is a good chapter on making improvised shelters.

Here are some ideas for travelling out of the US.

Passport
Copy of Passport in another area
People skills (don't look or act the part of the wacko, right-wing, ultra-religious, half cocked, militant gun owner)
Durable Clothes of course
Good shoes (no high heels)
Compass (know how to use it) when in unfamiliar territory
Maps for the same
Pen and/or pencil
Read and speak the local language and at least one other non native language
Proper immunizations
Money belt
Local Currency
Something to bribe/barter with (cash)
The knowledge and ability to operate a manual transmision (very important in foreign countries), a motorcycle, car, truck, boat, etc...

But the most important thing anyone can get for modern urban survival is higher education!  Oh yeah, and a job.

That changes it a little but not much.  I read a story a few years back about a family (husband, wife, infant girl) who hiked the Appalachian Trail together.  Granted, they were used to hiking/backpacking already but they did it with just a few resupplies.  There have been baby packs on the market for years (think pappoose baby carriers) and all terrain strollers.  I see them all the time on the trails.

Someone give me the breakdown on "Pulling Through".  I've never heard of it.

Ok if we are pulling out old crazed Survivalist nuts;

Mel Tappen
Kurt Saxon
Ragnar Benson, already mentioned but worth it again
Bruce Clayton
Hardy James

I disavow all of them, nutty anti social doomsayers

Authors:

Jerry Pournelle "Lucifers Hammer"
Dean Ing is covered

Some real Literature
Robert Adams Horseclans books - complete with that Molly hatchet cover art
Jerry Ahern "The Survivalist" Never read a one, but thought it should be included

Pat Frank "Alas Babylon"

Some good, if outdated reads here. BTW Im barely over thirty so dont date me on the material.

As far as what you might need and when you might need it, thats the whole point. Who knows. But Id prepare like it was a hurricane or a riot.

Even if we get EMP'd I doubt the wheels would fall off. But the Uncle SAm can of Emergency Whoop-Ass would get opened.

Luck
Alac

Never become a refugee.

A couple years ago I put together a little emergency kit for mine and my wife's car.  I wasn't thinking SHTF so much as a breakdown or something happening on a highway in the middle of nowhere.  

1) Wool army surplus blanket -- if you have to spend the night in the car, at least you'll be comfortable
2) Rain poncho - can also be used as a ground mat if you have to crawl under the car on a rainy or muddy night.
3) Flashlight stored without batteries.  Two sets of fresh batteries still in pack.
4) Waterproof box with matches or cigarette lighter, plus a piece of candlestick
5) MRE or two and a quart of bottled water
6) Basic first aid kit
7) Fixed-blade knife
8) Wool scarf (winter) and bandanna (summer)
9) Insulated gloves
10) Pad & pencil (not a pen)
11) Cheap handheld CB-band radio with fresh battery
12) Inexpensive multi-tool with at least wire cutter and pliers
13) Chapstick and/or sunscreen

The whole thing, except the blanket, fit in a surprisingly compact bag.  Throw it in the trunk and forget it.  Some of this stuff comes in handy even when not in emergency situations.

My wife and I both have CCW's and keep a pistol with spare mag in the car.  In addition, since 9/11 I've kept a carbine in both cars (wife gets the M1 carbine, I have the Marlin 336).

A small solar / hand crank powered radio might come in handy.

Larry

Can't somebody please post the entire contents of Major T.J. 'King' Kong's survival kit in "Dr. Strangelove."  Where is my book of great movie quotes when I need it most?

"Shoot.  A feller can have a real good time in New York City with all this stuff."

Be sure to get a good one that works.  After a couple years, cheaper ones often won't hold a charge very long (a few seconds).

Survival kit contents from Dr. Strangelove:

1 .45 automatic.
2 boxes of ammunition.
4 days' concentrated emergency rations.
1 drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills.
1 miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible.
100 dollars in rubles.
100 dollars in gold.
9 packs of chewing gum.
1 issue of prophylactics.
3 lipsticks.
3 pairs of nylon stockings.

Tis a classic

Luck
Alac

Survival is paramount. Preparation is necessary. The number one thing to prepare is your mind.

I almost forgot, Spiderwire!  It's great stuff. It's not just for fishing.  You can use it for super strong tread, tying things together,
making snares, trip-wires,  a few strands braided together will hold a lot of weight.  I keep a few hundred yards in my hunting vest and in my SHTF pack.  By the way, anyone think of using a travel / camera vest and a small fanny pack. You wouldn't stand out so much and if you did lose the pack, you still would have a lot of your equipment in the vest. I think I just thought up a use for that vest I got from my dad that I thought I would never use. Duct tape can come in handy too.

Larry

duct tape? for hamsters?

Those 15-packs of 2-ply tissue make good TP substitute.  I've used them at school (Los Angeles Unified) when there was no TP around.

Skunkabilly, thank you for sharing.

[puke]

Av.

Hey I open Mel Tappen's Survival Guns and read a few chapters every now and then.... it was timely and not that crazy....my shrink says so!

On books, Ragnar Benson was mentioned - excellent choice also books by Duncan Long, Peter Kokalis (SOF writer), Don Paul (former Green Beret), John Wiseman ( former SAS), Bob Newman (former USMC), and Kenn Abaygo. All publishers of excellent books on "survival" however you happen to define "survival. Paladin Press has quite a selection....there also used to be a Desert Publications - not sure if they are around still.

You need:

1) Haz-Mat suit in case of bio-terror
2) SCUBA gear for floods
3) Small yeild nuclear device for all else

A big problem with suburban semi-rural survival would be other people.

In tough times some of them resort to criminal activity and worse.

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