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Posted: 10/8/2008 2:40:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Pretty good companion piece to The Silmarillion
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Posted: 10/8/2008 2:46:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Pretty brutal huh... dark, no happy endings there. |
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Posted: 10/8/2008 4:41:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.
It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil." The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory. So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God. In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good". |
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Posted: 10/8/2008 8:42:54 PM EDT
[#4]
good info...thanks!
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Posted: 10/8/2008 8:44:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Tag
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Posted: 10/8/2008 8:48:54 PM EDT
[#6]
BTW, this would be a good place to recommend this:
 http://www.amazon.com/Blade-Itself-First-Law-Book/dp/159102594X 1/2 through the 2nd book and they are great. Can't recommend it enough. |
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Posted: 10/8/2008 8:52:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Huge +1... but, until He shows up, the part in blue is a good philosophy.  Matt |
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Posted: 10/8/2008 9:02:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Awesome, yet extremely dark story.
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Posted: 10/8/2008 9:12:15 PM EDT
[#9]
DAY SHALL COME AGAIN!
 
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:10:39 AM EDT
[#10]
so what would go better after reading this? LotR or The Silmarillion?
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:17:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Have you read LotR? I would read the Silmarillion before reading the Children of Hurin, and then read LotR last. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:22:12 AM EDT
[#12]
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:23:16 AM EDT
[#13]
yeah, i've read them all. never made it all the way through the silmarillion though |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:47:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause. It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil." The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory. So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God. In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good". Big +1...AMEN, may His Spirit give us strength! |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:08:33 AM EDT
[#15]
First two chapters are very dry. But when you get into the actual plot it far, far exceeds LotR. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:14:51 AM EDT
[#16]
I bought the audiobook. After the third failed attempt of reading the book, I just bit the bullet and spent the cash. It is a very good read (listen). |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:24:09 AM EDT
[#17]
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion. Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease. Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies. I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:25:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Tagscription, need to buy a couple more books it appears!
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:32:07 AM EDT
[#19]
 I bow in deference to your superiour nerditude. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:47:52 AM EDT
[#20]
In order: The Hobbit, LOTR (including appendices), Silmarillion, other assorted published works. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 7:51:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Incest? He did his sister and didn't even know it. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 1:55:22 PM EDT
[#22]
+1 Also, when the Numenoreans came to Middle Earth in the 2nd age their power was so great that Sauron was humbled by them without a fight. Too bad he was able to corrupt them from within. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 1:57:18 PM EDT
[#23]
He promised hope and change. 
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Posted: 10/10/2008 1:57:45 PM EDT
[#24]
If you haven't read LOTR trilogy, then read it first. Then The Silmarillion. I can't hardly believe you started with "Children of Hurin". Great story though, just a weird order... |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 1:58:59 PM EDT
[#25]
I really enjoyed it. The book gets better with Quenta Silmarillion, and then again in The Akallabeth. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 1:59:28 PM EDT
[#26]
same here...the book is somewhat "verbose" 
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Posted: 10/10/2008 2:03:21 PM EDT
[#27]
The chapter of the Silmarillion concerning the War of Wrath was an excellent one
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Posted: 10/10/2008 2:05:32 PM EDT
[#28]
 The Numenoreans were "Obama'd" |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:03:00 PM EDT
[#29]
The thing I like most about the LoTR, and the thing that most people miss, is that good doesn't win.
Evil defeats itself. At least that's the way I took it. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:06:15 PM EDT
[#30]
So it's about Obama!
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:11:04 PM EDT
[#31]
I've had the same problem with it. Maybe I'll have to give it another try. BTW, I had the same problem with The Hobbit too. When TLOTR movies came out I knew I wanted to read the books first, starting with Hobbit and forced myself thru the first 100 pages or so and then it moved right along. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:16:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Tolkien was truly a genius. I can't really describe how good his books are.
Btw, Aimless, I had to read The Silmarillion a few times before I really enjoyed it. But now it is just as interesting as the others. Just a little different style.
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#33]
That's funny, since I could easily slide through The Hobbit, but failed when trying to read Silmarillion. I haven't tried to read it in years, and had to blow the dust off my copy, but with the way things are in the world, a little release through fantasy might just be a good thing. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:20:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Here is a tip. The commercial version of the Simarillion has two short chapters in front of it which are actually different books which go into somewhat boring details of Tolkien's mythology (i.e. who the gods are, etc.). The third book, Quenta Silmarillion can be read alone without reading the other books. It has a very good story, and is written in a very high tone. In many ways it is like reading a good history. The chapters are glimpses into the important events of the great war between the High Elves (i.e. Elrond's forefathers) and Melkor (i.e. Satan. Sauron's master).
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:27:56 PM EDT
[#35]
The blue part sounds more than a little like the script pitch for "High Noon". Even if no one else will help, someone has to kill Frank Miller dead |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:27:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Yep, I'd tried to read The Hobbit several times, like 4 or 5, but could never get into it. Like I said I forced myself to read it and somewhere around the 100 page mark things picked up and away I went. Had absolutely no problem getting into the LOTR books. They took off right from the get go.
So I tried The Silmarrilon once and found it like Aimless described it. And worse than trying to get into The Hobbit. Guess I'll have to force myself into it this winter. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:36:19 PM EDT
[#37]
no, i've read them all starting with The Hobbit in 7th grade English |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:44:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Read the Children of Hurin before the Silimarilion. CoH is a much easier read and the Silimarilion will make much more sense after reading CoH. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 3:46:12 PM EDT
[#39]
OK, I guess I am just a little confused about why it matters then. 
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:49:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Uhhh, yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there... Finrod Felagund, perhaps the greatest of the Noldor - purest in spirit, loyal in deed, one of the strongest in battle - went head to head with Sauron after he was captured along with Beren on the quest for the Silmaril. Finrod fell before Sauron's sorcery and was imprisoned on Tol in Gaurhoth, Isle of the Werewolves. Then he was eaten by a werewolf in the dungeon while defending Beren, after all of his men were similarly dispatched. Maybe since Sauron had been separated from his Ring in the Third Age, Finrod or one of the other great Noldor could have taken him. Certainly their armies would have whomped on Sauron's army. But one on one? Galadriel was every bit as powerful as any of the Noldorin royalty - actually, she IS Noldorin royalty: sister of Finrod and niece to Feanor - and she was certainly afraid of Sauron. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:51:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Dude, what are you doing here? Turin killed your ass by mistake in the book! You can't talk in this thread! Get back to the Halls of Mandos and shut your pie hole
 And Sauron had his ring when the Numenorians captured him BTW. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 4:57:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Halls of Mandos got high speed internet last week. It flippin' rocks. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Of the Middle Earth books, only The Hobbit and LotR were written by Tolkien and taken to publication.
The Sillmarrillion was taken from notes and scribbles by his son Christopher. It is actually the beginnings of several books that Tolkien sadly never managed to complete. I read somewhere that he had a religious conversion late in life, and felt it was immoral to write about his fantasy world with its alternative theology. I'm not sure of the details of that, but it's kinda sad that it diverted him from further writings on Middle Earth. The Children of Hurin tale was one of the more well rounded out tales that Tolkien had started. A great synopsis of it is included in the Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien actually did most of the heavy lifting in getting it finished and published. With that said, I love the tale too, but have not managed to get through the first couple chapters of the novel either. I think the most difficult aspect of a lot of the ME stories is they encompass thousands of years, which is difficult for us humans to relate to and even more difficult to spin into a novel. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:44 PM EDT
[#44]
I read it...'bout killed me though-that shit is boooooring
I have a saying I made up that I live by: "Better to die on your feet being free then to die on your knees as a dog" |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:03:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Nope, he was a devout Catholic all his life. |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:05:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Double tap... sorry
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:07:08 PM EDT
[#47]
I like Tolkien's works so well I actually read them when I am feeling lonely or depressed. It's like having a good friend talk to you... Know what I mean?
I think I've read LOTR at least 30 times, and the Hobbit probably more. Calvin and Hobbes books also are good for a smile on a gloomy day. lol |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:10:16 PM EDT
[#48]
BTW while I liked the whole Ring thing Tolkin isn't my favorite writer....that title goes to H.P. Lovecraft
ALL HAIL CTHULHU!!!! 
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:11:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Another excellent Tolkien snippet from The Fellowship of the Ring:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time", said Frodo. "So do I", said Gandalf "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." Gandalf's way of saying quitcher bitchin and do something about your problems! |
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Posted: 10/10/2008 5:24:50 PM EDT
[#50]
I know what you mean, although I don't think I've read them that many times. I re-read them and my favorite Stephen Hunter books every two to three years. |
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