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Posted: 6/7/2008 3:18:30 AM EDT
I know full well what I'm stirring up here but I just wanted to see what kind of opinions we get.
I like the AR15 a lot and still think it's a great design, but more and more I'm coming to think that a .223 ak based weapon, or a sig 55x weapon, is my goto gun for shtf, and just superior overall when you take into account the critical factor of reliability (especially reliability in adverse conditions). The ak and sig rifles are the only ones I know of (except galil, which is too heavy) that use the locking mag design. They are comparable in weight, ergonomics, and accuracy to the AR, but have one distinct advantage. Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle! Exhibit A: Check out this youtube vid. Here's a seemingly decently trained shooter with I'm sure a new, well maintained AR, and his weapon fails to feed at a critical moment due to the shitty mag locking design. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZvBptVNSOA Compare that to this (I'm quoting from a thread on theakforum.net): So a fellow member here found this buried in the mud....     I still think the AR is a great design, light, ergonomic, low recoil; but more and more I think that a .223 ak based rifle, or sig 55x, would be superior in terms of reliability, while not losing much in terms of handling/recoil. Cleaner running action too. For shtf, seems the best option. The mags on the AR are just too problematic. The ak/sig locking mag system really puts those models over the top as far as I'm concerned. Depending on how costly and high brow you want to get, the sig and the ak are your two best options IMO. The new piston ARs definitely run cleaner/more reliable, and I guess the upgrade mags I hear about help. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:09:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Yeah, the AR-15/M-16 would never work in a warzone.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:10:05 PM EDT
[#2]
The ergos on AK's are crap and the AK is not as accurate as an AR.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:19:36 PM EDT
[#3]
what he said! 
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:20:07 PM EDT
[#4]
he failed walking around in the open like some COD4 hogans alley BS...real world rifle would have nothing to do with it..
well maybe 
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:20:16 PM EDT
[#5]
How many places are you going to post this?
Although I am a huge fan of the AK series rifles, I still love my ARs. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:34:06 PM EDT
[#6]
what about mag changes, safety, accuracy (BECAUSE of difference in Iron sights) Availability of ammo in a domestic shtf scenario. Compatability with friendly forces?
There are a ton of pros for the ar, and while i love aks, the main defence they fall back on is Its reliable and a peasant could use it. Well I am not a peasant and an ar has never failed with me at the wheel while my ak has several times. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:39:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Well, if I decide to plan for fantasy, dragons, unicorns and TEOTWAWKI then I'll be sure to not choose an AR.
Back here in this little place called "reality" though, the AR will do everything you need it to do. If you like to fantasize about single handedly being the victor of a gun battle a day for decades on end with no chance of resupply or even a pause to clean your weapon, yeah, you better not get an AR. To each their own. I wont make fun of your choices of why you chose it, dont make fun of mine. 
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:39:31 PM EDT
[#8]
I think you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. I really don't care what that is. Just become proficient with it.
The mag catch on my AR's never fails. Why would it? I don't try and load more than 29 rounds in a mag that is tight with 30 and they go right in every time. Since I converted to P mags, this isn't even an issue. Add the perfect reliability for many thousands of rounds to the stunning accuracy, and you have a package that you can't even come close to beating. If you don't like the platform, no sweat. There is no way we will talk you out of it so let us know how it turns out.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:42:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah I posted this in three places. Ar15 survival forum. Ar-15 technical discussions. And theakforum.net survival discussions.
I kind of expected fellow arfcommers to be in favor of the ar15. All I'm saying is, in my experience, I've had a few mags fall out because they weren't put in all the way; or failure to feed because the mag is'nt shoved in far enough, etc etc. Or bolt didnt have enough umph going forward to fully seat the round and so you have to try and eject that round but OOPS! now you've got the round and another one stuck together in there....whereas with the ak you just slam the built in charging handle forward and rock and roll. I think the 762 has a bit less accuracy and a bit more recoil, so what I'm leaning toward is one of the new more refined .223 aks for shtf. YMMV |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:46:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Not making fun of anything, Ar definitely has it's strong suits. More accurate, lighter, better ergo, easier to put on good optics. Lots of positives. But It just keeps bugging me though what a weak point the AR mag design is, and that's why I'm shying away from it for SHTF speculation/purposes purposes. There have been many a perfectly cleaned, maintained AR that all of sudden had a mag malfunction, whether it was caused by the user or not. Scares me. Depends on personal preference, of course, which lightsabre you choose. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:48:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Not trying to be talked out of anything. The ar is definitely in the SHTF toolbox. But so is the AK 223 after some of my recent research/experiences. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:59:47 PM EDT
[#12]
buy an AK in a mans caliber,,you 90lb when wet fairys need to learn how to cotrol recoil not strap maxipads to buttstcoks then cry that it bounces to much....  AR's SUCK! 
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:07:12 PM EDT
[#13]
I agree with the manly caliber. Most of the time my rifle squadron and company are not available. In a survival situation I don't think they'll even bother to show up. So I'll take mine in something with a .30 in it - and I mean full power .30 like .308 or .30-06 not .30-30! 
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:09:03 PM EDT
[#14]
It is not my experience that AKs "never fail to feed/fail to cycle." Quite the opposite in fact.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:10:01 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm stealing this line from someone... can't remember who he is exactly, some kind of war or weapons historian... anyway he was quoted as saying:
"If I was going to an Alien world and could only take 2 weapons with me, it would be an AK and a Glock because they are reliable, and nearly indestructable" blah blah blah ... something to that effect... All I know is that you can sit here and talk about MOA and all that jazz... but in a true and I mean TRUE ... guts, grease, muck, water, gunk, crap and stuff... situation like that... the last thing I want to think about is cleaning my gun... I'll take my AK hands down before my AR ... Id rather have it function period through thick and thin than be able to shoot 1" groupings at (enter your yards here)... A man size target at 200 yards is a man size target at 200 yards. Camm |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:28:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Yeah.....i like the 762 as well but it doesnt have the same velocity or accuracy obviously, and therefore in some cases less wound potential. It's good to have a mix. But if I had to choose in a pinch I'd go with .223 ak not 762. Nah nah nah nah nah! |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:28:34 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:33:14 PM EDT
[#18]
so you point is?
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:36:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Since the OP is spamming forums with his infomercial I thought I'd post my response.
You know that old saying "better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, then to open it ane remove all doubt". You should have thought of that prior to posting.
Based on what emperical data? One of the big factors showing the AR superiority in cobat to those other systems is that is is ROUTINELY selected over them by units with the money to buy what they want.
Let me guess the only time you've ever handled one of those weapns was playing a video game. ALL of the mentioned weapons are notably heavier than the AR for the same configuration (just ask the Izzy's about the Galil..). The AR is more accurate than any of them, though admittedly at typical combat distances they are all 'accurate enough'. As for ergonomics - "I don't think that word means what you think it means" - again the AR has a distinct ergonomics advantage.
UH\hh yeah - further proof you have no experience with the aforemented weapons. Stick to your XBOX.
You post an ADVERTISEMENT for a video camera - which features an poorly trained carbine operator using substandard gear and expect us to take it as 'proof'. Here is proof: The M16 is the longest serving rifle in the history of the US Military. It has survived several attempts at replacement (even against newer designs put up by Colt - so you can't claim manufacturer bias). The straight in/out magazine design is a big part of the ergonmic advantage of the AR series. It allows for faster/easier installation and removal. Of course if you use substandard gear and don't know what your doing then you will screw up. Of course that will happen with ANY weapon system. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:48:59 PM EDT
[#20]
I have a hk 93 to back up my dpms sass
is that not good enough? all my action will be in the us not sand flee countrys and my hero's seem to be getting it done with ar's oversea's I just got on the ar bandwagon a few years ago, if you would have posted this 20 years ago I would agree, I was all about h&k s the need for more rail space sent me looking in a new direction, now I'm hearing I f ed up na someone tell me [its all good]  |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:49:46 PM EDT
[#21]
THis is about all I got out of this post. nothing more, nothing less.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:53:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Forest is right. On each account.
Your premise is complete  , therefore your argument is
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Posted: 6/6/2008 5:58:58 PM EDT
[#23]
one anecdotal experience of an ar jamming and an ak shooting muddy mag's is insufficient to make a determination of the poor quality of an ar or the good quality of an ak. i'd guess 99% of the people on this board understand the ar isn't perfect, and they understand the exact thing w/ the ak. each has it's pros and cons. whatever you shoot learn how it works, how to shoot it well and how to fix it if it's broke. the best shtf rifle is the one you can do all three things w/.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:01:44 PM EDT
[#24]
And that experience would be...???
Your handling and operating errors do not have anything to do with the weapons reliablilty.
You've never actually had real training with an AR on a live fire range have you.
And indeed it does.... by quite a few miles. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:08:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Ironically, I too have had mag problems. First time it really happened was on a timed course. I think doing timed courses helps with mag problems. Point being, ANY firearm can have problems. Each firearm carries with it certain desirable traits. I would have to say the most dead nuts reliable semi auto rifle I have ever owned was an SKS. It just RUNS. But as you say, to each their own. I certainly wont make fun of anyone who buys a gun for defensive purposes. Quite the opposite, I congratulate them. Good to see them have their head screwed on straight. Now that doesnt mean they didnt fuck up by buying something other then an AR, but thats another story.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:34:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Personally I can't imagine why anybody would not have both.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:37:29 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:43:33 PM EDT
[#28]
That's the way I feel also, but I love guns of all kinds. One thing to think about if you choose the AK for your SHTF rifle is how AKs are viewed by many. AK equals bad guy for a lot of people. The range I go to has a 3 round rule for semi autos. I have shot 30 round mags with the ranger there and he has never said a word; however, we took a guy with an AK while the rest of us had ARs, and the ranger singled him out and gave him an ass chewing. He ignored everyone else. Just something to think about. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:46:34 PM EDT
[#29]
I have both 3 ar`s and an ak , but I would never let any of my rifles or mags or ammo look like THAT!!!!
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Posted: 6/6/2008 6:47:59 PM EDT
[#30]
A most sensible response to this thread. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 7:07:22 PM EDT
[#31]
The local sheriff's office just bought a couple dozen AR15's for trunk guns. Boy are they going to be mad when they find out they bought unreliable junk. I think it is kinda funny that some people just "know" the AR15 is unreliable. Wonder why the US military and US civilian law enforcement SWAT "don't" use the AK series of weapons if they are so superior to the M16/AR15 rifles? I guess we can imagine the answer to that question.
RS |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 7:23:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Watching that video I had flashbacks to my old Half Life days
Possible operator error on the "jam". And of course I have both ARs & AKs, just to be sure I have all the bases covered. FB |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 7:24:39 PM EDT
[#33]
So...... if you buy an AK, you are unstoppable?
What a waste of bandwidth.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 7:38:02 PM EDT
[#34]
I have a Sig 556. It uses the same magazines as an AR-15/M-16.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 8:05:29 PM EDT
[#35]
I watched one fail at a tactical training. So did a few AR's and a FAL. ALL weapons CAN fail. Shit happens. Av. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 9:03:20 PM EDT
[#36]
taurus sucks
but this thread is a close second  |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 9:21:16 PM EDT
[#37]
Ok I have a mag full of rust wolf ammo I have been saving just for this debate with a friend . Im leaving for nashville this week end on business but when I get back Ill load that mag in my home built AR and discharge every round and Ill video tape it ........ Im pretty sure it isnt going to jam but I might be wrong . If Im wrong Ill admit the AK is better for shooting rusty wolf ammo if Im right we can move on and stop having this debate till next week. When what it REALLY Boils down to is have a weapon that works in your conditions that you are able to put on target when it counts . Some one can easily take me out with a musket it they know how to use it because its only going to need to fire once as far as my life is concerned .
ETA : the mag has been in my truck door for a little over a year being rained on quite a few times if your wondering why I have rusty wolf ammo in a mag . Ill try to get a pic up before I leave town. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 9:25:32 PM EDT
[#38]
I might have a lemon, but I can't shoot more than 1 mag through my AK without it jamming at least once, if not up to 3 times. Meanwhile I have a Colt sporter that I got back in '94 that I still haven't figured out how to make jam yet.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 9:35:45 PM EDT
[#39]
LOL Now that's a response!
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Posted: 6/6/2008 9:49:59 PM EDT
[#40]
reads like -operator error-
reads like -operator error-
reads like, again -operator error- sounds like you need to spend less time on the interweb and more time practicing proper gun handling/ reloading skills. ] |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 10:33:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Yes, Buehler, I know all of the problems I mentioned are due to me not operating it properly. Which goes back to my earlier point about the AR being a great weapon and just as reliable as practically any ak (and a lot more accurate, etc etc) IF you use it properly and are trained to do so EVERY time. But for an untrained peasant like myself who at this stage of my hobby evolution is more interested in collecting than shooting, if I had to, and hope I never have to, take any rifle into battle, maybe I WOULD be better off with an ak, because gosh darnit, all things being equal, I suck with AR mags. Me and AR mags just dont get along at my current level of training. But I've never had any problems with Ak mags because they are designed to be idiot proof. |
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Posted: 6/6/2008 11:33:08 PM EDT
[#42]
It doen't matter what style. If you just have one SHTF rifle, you will eventually be left with just SHTF.
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Posted: 6/6/2008 11:51:58 PM EDT
[#43]
I fucking hate all of you
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Posted: 6/7/2008 12:46:26 AM EDT
[#44]
Sounds like a self-admitted troll to me. |
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Posted: 6/7/2008 1:30:52 AM EDT
[#45]
Wow, For a minute there I thought I must have clicked the GD button and not survival.
This thread needs a LOCK now. |
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Posted: 6/7/2008 2:16:32 AM EDT
[#46]
KIFARU SUCKS
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Posted: 6/7/2008 3:25:14 AM EDT
[#47]
IMO, a 16" carbine AR is ideal. Light and accurate, point of aim-point of impact from 0 to 200 yards, right about when velocity drops to loose fragmentation. Accurate out to 500 yards with practice. Properly maintained, it's perfectly reliable. PMAGs have pretty much taken care of the AR mag weakness IMO.
Don't get me wrong - I love the AK platform also. I just grew tired of the minute-of-torso accuracy.
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Posted: 6/7/2008 3:26:37 AM EDT
[#48]
In the little youtube video link,he's using an AR15/M4 rifle. At a minute twenty five seconds. The operator tries to draw side arm,doesn't clear the holster and shakes it free?Ghey. Trolling failed
ETA Guys using a Bushmaster Carbon 15. USGI mags wont rust. Follower is poly/plastic it wont rust. Silicone springs won't niether. +1 for AR -1 for AK |
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Posted: 6/7/2008 3:27:03 AM EDT
[#49]
 Yup. Opinions are like assholes... Everyone has one... And they're shit... (Well, at least he's not trying to convince me how perfect the MP5N is.....) CPO SWCC US Navy (Retired) |
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Posted: 6/7/2008 3:32:02 AM EDT
[#50]
That Rifle in the video Looks like a Carbon 15 and The Pro Ordnance Carbon 15 models Had Issues. |
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