[url]http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=Q3FOG1KLX33LSCRBAE0CFEYKEEATGIWD?type=worldnews&StoryID=386871[/url]


I wonder how Reuters feels now that 2 of their guys are dead about the NA killing Taliban shitbags.

[url]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,39062,00.html[/url]

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/11/19/ret.missing.journalists/index.html[/url]

[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/659869.asp[/url]

[url]http://www.newschannel2000.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-108455420011119-091144.html[/url]

What makes you think that any torture was involved?

Fox News said on TV that they threw stones at them before shooting them. One of the articles also says it too.

According to what I heard, they were ambushed, robbed, and then executed.  No mention of torture.

God Bless Texas

Stoning a person is torture.

Not according to the Bible. People were stoned all the time. Islam also has stories of stoning in the Qur'an.

Av.

"Stoning... until you're hit in the head and knocked out or killed... it's torture. What else would you call it, getting beat up with rocks?"


My thoughts exactly.
Those people that think otherwise must of never got into a rock fight when they were young.

OUCH!

Obviously, getting hit with a rock hurts, and inflicting pain is one element of torture.  But all deliberate acts that cause pain aren't torture (which is defined as "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure").

Suppose that American troops on a "peacekeeping" mission somewhere were to throw a few rocks at local troublemakers who kept coming to their post to harass them.  Would you want those troops to be tried as war criminals for "torture"?

While I don't think it is torture to throw rocks at someone, you have got to put this in perspective.

Throwing rocks to drive someone away or warn them off is one thing.

Throwing rocks at someone as a preface to murder is another.

I suspect the dead jouranalists will console themelves in the fact that at least they weren't tortured. [;D]

How about the 15 seconds they held the gun to their head before they pulled the trigger? Would THAT count as "torture?"

For once I have to agree with Garandman...

Wandering around in a war zone without a rifle...when you can pick up a AK with such small amounts of cash there...hopefully other journalists will learn from this tragedy and start carrying.  Only trained, professional, state armies obey conventions on protecting journalists.  In places like this where armed mobs are roaming carrying a rifle is a must.

SOme of us are worried that a few liberal journalists were offed??

I am not going to loose one wink of sleep over it tonight!

I wonder what Reuters does think now.


                                                                                    Monday, Nov 19, 2001  2:15 PM
                                                                                          Respond to  of 30


     Reuters News Service

     To Reuters, there are no terrorists.

     As of last week, suicide attacks that deliberately kill thousands of innocent civilians cannot even be described as acts of terror.

     Stephen Jukes, the wire service's global head of news, explained his reasoning in an internal memo: "We all know that one man's terrorist is
     another man's
     freedom fighter and that Reuters upholds the principle that we do not use the word terrorist. . . . To be frank, it adds little to call the attack on
     the World
     Trade Center a terrorist attack."

     Except for the little detail that a terrorist assault is what it was. So why the value-neutral approach?

     "We're trying to treat everyone on a level playing field, however tragic it's been and however awful and cataclysmic for the American people
     and people
     around the world," Jukes says in an interview.

     Besides, he says, "we don't want to jeopardize the safety of our staff. Our people are on the front lines, in Gaza, the West Bank and
     Afghanistan. The
     minute we seem to be siding with one side or another, they're in danger."

     Not everyone at the London-based news agency, which employs 2,500 journalists, is happy about the policy. Jukes acknowledged there had
     been "an
     emotional debate" with news editors around the world.

     After the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, and again after the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, Reuters allowed the events to
     be described
     as acts of terror. But as of last week, even that terminology is banned because "we felt that ultimately we weren't being logically consistent,"
     Jukes says.
     References to terrorism are allowed only when quoting someone.

     "We're there to tell the story," Jukes insists. "We're not there to evaluate the moral case."

Gee, this sounds a lot like a "hate crime" to me.

Since European journalists are the best allies of the Taliban, the only reason they had for being killed was that they were either white or not Muslims...

Sorry Guys, alls I can come up with is "It's a good start".

raf, I agree!

Are we sure these killings were committed by Taliban?  Haven't heard any info that absolutely confirms this!

Why would the Taliban kill fawning "journalists"?  That's like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs!

Just think about it!

DaMan

I callit assault with a deadly weapon.

"Torture" implies a deliberate attempt to inflict pain while avoiding injuries that would render the person unconsious or dead.

I haven't seen anything about "stoning" or "stones thrown"!  Sounds to me like they were simply taken out and shot!

Got any sources that say they were "stoned"?

Like I said before.... it's counter-productive to kill fawning journalists!

DaMan

[sarcastic mode: ON]Was it caught on film?  Damn it I need to be entertained.  Send in more reporters!!!
That is what you get when you are in a place you aren't supposed to be DURING A WAR!!!!


BISHOP

Part of it was apparently caught on film.

Two of the reporters worked for Reuters.  I wonder if the company is going to continue to give equal and unbiased time to the Taliban.

Now if they would get Dan Blather,Brokaw, and Geraldo the world would be a better place.

What do you call four dead "journalists" in the Afghan desert? A start.

Given enough time, I think the Taleban and the rest of the Muslims stand a good chance of straightening out the entire fucked up western world.  So a bunch of (probably) gun-hating liberal journalists out on a junket in Afghanistan got greased?  They knew the risks and went anyways.  There's no such thing as a "non-combatant."
 

The way some of you guys are reacting to this reminds of the Somalis dragging the dead American soldier through the streets.  Please attempt to have a little dignity and behave a tad less like third-world assholes exulting in blood somebody else spilled.  Don't forget, as you exult over this, that the Palestinians danced in the streets on 9/11/01.  You really want to follow in their exalted footsteps?

Liberal or not, they were human beings killed by savages, the same savages that hit the WTC.
One of them was from my country. The last article she wrote (with one of the other murdered) was about the discovery of a cache ov nerve gas in Afghanistan.
I think that they deserve respect.

As humans they deserve respect..... but... The journalistic community needs a good wake up call like this....!

In a way it is sad, because for $500 US, easily charged to corporate expense accounts, they could have bought themselves each a AK and all the ammo they could carry.

The Afgani drivers the thugs let go said there were only 6 hijackers. Vs 4 reporters. Should have been do-able.

Given that this tragidy should never of happened.

War journalists know the score; this is not the first or the last incident. Doubt this will markedly change any attitudes in the media. The only thing that will change is local security arrangements. If they haven’t got it by now, probably aint gonna get it.

BTW most of the bias everyone (myself included)rails against issues from the Editors, Producers and Execs, not the field guys. Piss poor show reveling in their deaths. Not warranted, regardless of their politics. Of course, anyone who has any inkling of Harry Burton's personal political views, feel free to fill me in.

Luck
Alac

It is unfortunate that they got murdered, but you have to remember that this area is a war zone and not Disneyland, where the rifle rules.
==============================
[url]http://www.kfwb.com/news/intnat/i112002.html[/url]
Bodies Of Journalists Recovered  
JALALABAD, Afghanistan (AP) 11.20.01, 5:40a -- The bodies of four international journalists have been recovered and were identified by colleagues today, a day after their convoy was ambushed in a narrow mountain pass on the road to the Afghan capital, Kabul.
The four journalists had been reported missing and feared dead in the wake of the ambush as they drove from the eastern city of Jalalabad.

They were: Australian television cameraman Harry Burton and Azizullah Haidari, an Afghan photographer, both of the Reuters news agency; Maria Grazia Cutuli of Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera; and Julio Fuentes of the Spanish daily El Mundo.

Militiamen found the bodies and brought them to a hospital in Jalalabad, where they were identified by colleagues.

The four were among more than a dozen international journalists traveling in a convoy of around eight cars from the eastern city of Jalalabad to the capital, Kabul. Because the road was dusty, the cars spread out and often lost sight of each other.

The area recently came under the control of anti-Taliban forces. However, some Taliban stragglers and Arab fighters loyal to terror suspect Osama bin Laden are still believed to be in the area, and there had been earlier reports of armed robberies on the road.

Near the town of Serobi, 35 miles east of Kabul, six gunmen on the roadside waved the first three cars in the convoy to stop. One car sped ahead, while two stopped, said Ashiquallah, driver of the car carrying the Reuters reporters. He uses only one name.

He said the gunmen, wearing long robes, beards and turbans, warned them not to go any farther because there was fighting ahead with the Taliban. At that moment, a bus from Kabul came by and said the road was safe. The cars' drivers thought the gunmen were thieves and tried to speed away, but the gunmen stopped them.

The gunmen then ordered all the journalists out of the cars and tried to force them to climb the mountain. When they refused, the gunmen beat them and threw stones at them, said Ashiquallah.

"They said, 'What, you think the Taliban are finished? We are still in power and we will have our revenge,"' Ashiquallah said.

The gunmen then shot the Italian woman and one of the men, prompting the drivers to flee, he said. The Afghan translator, a man named Homuin, was left behind with the journalists.

The cars sped back toward Jalalabad and to warn the rest of the convoy. Other journalists saw the cars turn, and decided to turn around also. Ashiquallah's account was corroborated by another translator and driver who escaped in the other car.

Haji Shershah, an anti-Taliban commander in Jalalabad, said he spoke to residents and travelers on the road who reported seeing four bodies at the location of the attack.

"They were on the road, one woman and three men," Shershah said, quoting witnesses. He said villagers reported numerous other attacks involving gunfire on vehicles on the same road during the day.

Shershah took his men to within 10 miles of the ambush site. He decided against trying to go farther because night had fallen, the attack took place outside his district, and he feared an ambush on the narrow road, which has a river to the north and a steep mountain to the south.

The Afghans who took control of Jalalabad after the Taliban fled have a tenuous relationship with the northern alliance in Kabul, and the attack occurred along the boundary between the two groups.

Shershah said the attackers were bandits, not Taliban or his own fighters. A French journalist was robbed in the area the day before, and hours after Monday's assault on the journalists, an Afghan car arrived in Jalalabad with two bullet holes after being attacked.

"They're not Taliban, they are thieves," Shershah said. "They just want to put the blame on the Taliban. ... They were robbing lots of people."

Gadzooks! You mean if someone purposefully threw a rock at one of your little ones and killed them, you don't believe that they should be tried for MURDER?

Eric The(ISimplyDon'tBelieveYouThinkThat!)Hun[>]:)]

The Pilots are demanding sidearms.  Could the Reporters be demanding M-16's next?  I wouldn't even go there without being armed to the teeth.

Of course, for a journalist to be killed 'in the line of duty' is about as noble as you can get.

If I were a reporter in Afghanistan I would be carrying:

M4/203
Uzi
M9 Pistol

And in one or more of the vehicles, I would mount a Crew-Served MG, such as the M60 or SAW. If it weren't for US Regulations, we could have MG42s for about $300 US. AK-47s sell for something like $5 - 10 in Sub-Saharan Africa.

is it a surprise?,,f no,, 99% of journalists should be shot. this is good press,,no matter who is slicing the pie.

IronMike....GOOD journalists give accurate input on what THEY see happening close up!  Editors change this to what THEY want the public to see!

Those who rejoice over the death of the journalists killed covering the Afghan conflict are truly SICK!

DaMan

PS- Anybody know for sure "WHO DONE IT"?

Have you found varification of you CLAIMS??!

Taliban? NA? Or other scumbags responsible?

DaMan

If only our navy seals coming to the beach head in Desert storm would have opend fire on the journalists. I bet the bastards wouldn't be so nosey! Its a shame that they died, but the media will probably put a spin on it how they were killed with "assault rifles" and we should ban them here in the US.

It was the original landings in Somalia in 92, not Desert Storm, I watched it live.

Something happened to war correspondants during the Sixties.  Even into the early years of Vietnam war correspondants still carried rifles.  Then all of a sudden, about the time the TV guys started to show up, they stopped, and somehow claimed that they got magical protection by some international treaty.  Its really wierd how their whole thinking changed.

So even in Afganistan, where there is "no controlling authority" to keep you from having any firearm your heart desires, and for little money too, and they refuse to partake even to save their own lives. It is totally unreal.

I guess those journalist folks are not too bright, as some else said on this board, "even you are harmless, there is not guarentee that you won't be harmed."

Well you are kinda close, check out this article in the NY Times
[url] http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/20/international/20CND-JOURN.html?searchpv=past7days[/url]
.
.
Mr. Farooq said: "I tried to move away to save myself. I saw them using stones. I heard a Kalashnikov three times, maybe four times." The
Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle, known as the AK-47, is the weapon of
choice of most Afghan fighters. Mr. Farooq described the shots as rapid
bursts of automatic rifle fire.
.
.
.

I'd just catch em' and throw em' right back at em' :) "the rock's that is"

Just heard from "Da Man" Jerry Rivers himself in Pakistan, that three American newspapermen were mugged on the same road to Kabul the four others were murdered on.  They were "saved" by their interpriter (assuming he wasnt in on it) who talked them out of shooting them.