The Talibanis snuck out and left it undefended.  The NA couldn't hold their water and ran in, despite being told that was a Bozo-NoNo.  I'll go and cut and paste the AP or Reuters.  

NOVEMBER 12, 22:44 EST
Taliban Military Forces Flee Kabul

By KATHY GANNON
Associated Press Writer  
Watching the bombing
AP/Marco Di Lauro [19K]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 


KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban military forces deserted the capital of Kabul at dawn Tuesday, after a series of stunning military victories by opposition forces over the past four days.

Sporadic small arms fire could be heard from the hills overlooking the city, but the streets were empty of the Taliban soldiers, who had been there hours earlier. All Taliban military compounds were abandoned.

As they left, the Taliban took eight foreign aid workers, including two Americans, accused of spreading Christianity in Muslim Afghanistan, witnesses said.
 
As the sun rose over the Hindu Kush mountains, residents of Kabul could be heard shouting out congratulations to one another, honking car horns and ring bells on their bicycles.

From the rooftop of the Intercontinental Hotel on a hill overlooking Kabul columns of Taliban vehicles could be seen heading south beginning Monday night. The exodus continued after sun rise.

Northern alliance forces began moving into the capital in pickup trucks loaded with soldiers armed with rifles and rocket launchers. There was no shooting as the opposition forces took over a military barracks that only hours before had been in Taliban hands.

``I think it is great news. It means the initial phase of the campaign is going well,'' Army Secretary Thomas White said.

KABUL (Reuters) - Afghan opposition forces entered the heart of Kabul on Tuesday in defiance of international pressure to stay out and there was no sign of the hardline ruling Taliban after an exodus under the cover of darkness.

"We have taken Kabul," shouted one jubilant opposition fighter as he stood with a group of fellow fighters on a street in the city center on the 38th day since the start of the U.S. war.

The Taliban's offices in the city were deserted and some were being plundered by looters. Residents said some prisoners had broken out of jails abandoned by the Taliban.

"We have taken key government buildings," another opposition fighter said. "We are chasing the Taliban to the west."

Buoyed by the lightning capture of about 40 percent of the country over the weekend and more than a month of blistering U.S. air strikes on the Taliban, the Northern Alliance broke through Taliban front lines outside Kabul on Monday backed by U.S. bombing and a fierce artillery barrage.

After darkness fell on Monday, tanks, cars and battered Japanese pickups packed with Taliban were seen leaving the capital on the highway leading west and south to the fundamentalist militia's stronghold of Kandahar.

CONTROVERSY OVER ENTERING CAPITAL

The United States has allied with the Northern Alliance in fighting the Taliban to punish the militia for harboring Osama bin Laden, prime suspect in the September 11 hijack attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

But Washington had appealed to the Northern Alliance, made up mainly of ethnic Tajiks and Uzbeks, not to enter the capital.

A Pentagon spokesman in Washington said "we have no information" on the reports of the Taliban abandoning Kabul.

CNN has this too [url]http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/12/gen.war.against.terror/index.html[/url]

This is too easy.....

They will criticize Bush saying either the Taliban were not worthy adversaries (we knew that already) or that there was not enough buildup of suspense before it ended too abruptly.

Likely the Northern Alliance will get pitched as having done everything and we did nothing. (Not to take away from their blood in the mud...)

Anybody remember what happened the last time an Arab Terrorist pissed off a Bush. It was called the Persian Gulf War. Saddam got his ass kicked and so will the Taliban/Al Qaeda.

So what if they do? It will keep the Arab Street quiet if most of the real killing is Muslim v Muslim.

We just need BinLaden.

Only because the media has been playing the Taliban up as some sort of supersoldier.

Yeah and this is the same Media that said Iraq would be a bloodbath and the Republican Gaurd would kill alot of American Soldiers. Shows how much they know.

That's "ELITE Republican Guard", IIRC.  

Hmm, wonder what this will do to plans to put serious US and Western ground forces in on the ground? Will it just remain a Spec Ops operation backed by the Air Force now?  

And just when we finally got access to enough airfields and a road that would make it logisticaly possible to insert large Airmoble forces in the country.

I wonder how "DaMan!" will explain this...

Just so long as there are no Americans in Kabul. Because I think there is a nuke in Kabul.



Benjamin

Hate to sound cold blooded, but it would make our lives easier if they did.

Giving up Kabul meens that feeding the surviving population through the winter is now OUR responsibility.

Wonderful...

Ah, Benjamin, Benjamin ... sounds like you have a very logical mind.

To paraphrase the princess in Star Wars "It was too easy, they let us in"

What we know:  They are running down the road to Kandahar - they left Kabul in one big hurry...

Either you're correct, Benjamin, and it's a trap in Kabul, or there's still a bunch of bloody fighting yet to occur in Kandahar - no matter whether they are supersoldiers ot not.

Of course, no ones heard whether the road to Kandahar (wasn't there a Crosby/Hope movie by that name?) is being turn into a 'Highway of Death' - which if we miss this opportunity, we've probably been caught with our pants down by the sudden exodus from Kabul.

Well the Tajiks have stalled so long that the A10's are not yet in place, they say they are finally on their way this week.[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=69398[/url] So they are probably getting away MOSTLY free, because of the loong flight times for Oman and the Arabian Sea. The planes that DO get there should have good hunting.

Puff should eat well tonight. But we probably wont have more than 2 or so on station at any one time.

Christ, that has to be the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Rolled 'em up like a cheap carpet.

This sucks!  They are getting away.  Come back you bearded p*ssies and fight like men.  Grrrrr.

GunLvr

[B]"As the sun rose over the Hindu Kush mountains, residents of Kabul could be heard shouting out congratulations to one another, honking car horns and ring bells on their bicycles."[/B]

In the Arab world, allies are never won – merely rented.

Oh good grief…
Look ppl, every time they (the taliban) mass for some sort of cohesive resistance they are getting their ass pimp slapped from the air. Rockets, mortars and HMGs are a very poor substitute for good close air. We’ve beaten them into the same sort of rolling retreat Iraq fell into during the last days of the gulf war.

The fact that the Taliban tried to hold fixed defenses in the face of B52 bombardment speaks volumes…. The NA guys will be burying body parts for months.


- I sincerely hope we manage to find that krinkov carrying Saudi fag.  

If it didn't read like a book...
It stinks of "trap".
I hate it when that happens.

The rather squeemish crew on MSNBC.com are reporting with horror right now that the Northern Alliance people are executing the Taliban stragglers they catch...

Just like NBC[rolleyes]

You know, If I were a betting man, I'd bet someone was tracking every truck that flees Kabul. And I'd bet they were watching for the 2 or 3 trucks that break off from the pack and head into the mountains to where some caves are.
It would be real interesting to find out who was already hiding in those caves.

You can run but you can't hide.

They say the US has id'ed appx 200 cave, cave complexes as taliban hiding, operation centers and will be doing something about them........'

Why is it so surprising they left Kabul?? They won a victory against the USSR without controlling any cities. They tried to rule the countryside when we showed up, and took losses. They are probably switching back to the fighting style that they were most succesful with, guerilla.

They say that most of the taliban troops the NA is finding are Pakistanis or Arabs. My suspicion is the NA and regular citizens may consider them as invaders.

Yes we will have to make arrangements to feed people in Afghanistan.......... Wait aren't we the bread basket of the world?? Sounds like it will be a tedious taks but certainly do-able.

The war ain't over, but it is in a new phase.
Look for guerilla warfare and the taliban to be sniping at convoys. Also the "retreat" to Khandahar means their supply lines are shorter and our planes have to fly much further to get to the front lines.

osama bin laden is supposedly telling the taliban that they are not fighting like they should. The taliban are not amused...... if the rumors are true.

The Taliban was getting their butts kicked by the Soviet's Spetnaz and helocopter gunships.  The tide changed when the U.S. helped out with Stinger missles. Things are going to be different this time around.  Here is their chance to meet Abdulluh, with a little help from some B52s.

Warlord, I didn't say they would win....just that they were probably changing back to a fighting style that had worked for them in the past, as opposed to the "look out it's a trap theorists."

We ain't the Soviets, we have more planes, helicopters, and technology. The taliban have less advanced weaponry than they did when they fought the Soviets. Seems like a bad combination for them.

Our troops are also better trained, better led, and better supported.

Plus it's like the speech from Stripes.... "we're Americans, the mutts of the world, if you feel our noses they are a little wet, we've been kicked out of every other country in the world, but we've been kicking ass for 200 years, we're 21-1-1........,"

Mr cave dweller hasn't met a MOTIVATED Marine or soldier until now. British, Russian whoever came before...... not as motivated. Not only that we have sent troops that are volunteers. They volunteered for the military, voulunteered for combat arms and volunteered to be in the Rangers or Special Forces. Unlike those that have come before the US soldiers aren't there because they have to be. They are there because they feel they have a duty to the US and themselves.

I'm pretty sure most of the bombing has been done by the NAVY.  The Air Force has no airports in the area to stage from.  They have flown a few missions, but 12+ hours each way is a big too long.  This is not counting the B52's and other heavy bombers.

There was an article in the paper last week about how the NAVY was almost out of precision munitions and the Air Force had a ton.  They didn't want to give their munitions over to the Navy.  

Glad you asked, renamed!  

It doesn't surprise me that the Taliban abandoned Kabul.  It DOES surprise me that they abondoned it without a fight.  I bet there are people in the State Department scratching their heads and wondering the same thing!

What will happen now that the N. Alliance basically controls most of the country?  Probably the same thing that would have happened if the Taliban had resisted the takeover of Kabul ....... only sooner.

The "coalition"  (UN) will be forced to come up with a political solution in a hurry!  "Peace keepers" and partition?  Probably!  Get ready for the U.S. to pay for these operations for years to come!  But this was what was planned happen in the first place!

DaMan    

Maybe you've read too many Tom Clancy novels then.  In the real world, the enemy isn't all-powerful and ingeniously scheming to the very end.  Sometimes they are just cowardly sonsofbitches who run when you bloody their noses.

the taliban retreated to the city of kandahar instead of bring surrounded in kabul. the taliban are extremly pissed at obl right about now.
the n.a. troops are executing any pakistain or arab , chechen fighters they come across out side of kabul as they are not welcome. but if any taliban surrender they are treated fairly and if they fight back then they die too.
I would think anything moving on the road to kandahar is being targeted and they would not be able to get any heavy equipment to that city with out getting it blown to hell.
now we get to go get them in the caves. blow them up and seal them inside!

It's not very surprising, given the heavy U.S. bombings, that they pulled out of Mazar," says Rifaat Hussain, head of defense and strategic studies at Islamabad's Quaid-i-Azam University. "If the Taliban choose to fight a real battle, it will be over Kabul." - Quoted in various news sources.

Found numerous similar quotes. So the Taliban has done something totally unexpected. Maybe they're just smarter than Saddam Hussein. Not a good idea to stand toe-to-toe with a heavy hitter. Don’t forget they've lost their ISI/Pakistani intelligence/logistical support, being harried from the air, allies (Pashtun) deserting them, morale is low. At a time when their opposition (US supplanting Pakistan) is gaining all the advantages the Taliban has lost.  Perhaps retreating simply serves them better than a defeat at Kabul, which may have been a forgone conclusion. There is no compelling strategic reason to contest Kabul, in light of the defeats in the north and if true, more importantly, Herat , especially when it may cost you dearly. If Herat has fallen, the back door is now open to Qandahar. Kabul was becoming increasingly isolated. Best concentrate your forces.

All the same, this analysis (term used loosely) doesn’t satisfy me.  Find it difficult to believe that abandoning Kabul helps their political situation, which is preeminent. Afghanistan is secondary, the real concern of OBD is the Arab states and how to overturn secular rule.  Of course that might not be the Taliban’s primary concern at present. And they’ve held Kabul before in similar situation, but without US involvement.  Still, the withdrawal seems puzzling at best. Fill in the blanks for me if you can.

Luck
Alac

Oh, by the way, IF there is a nuke anywhere, its in Qandahar.

Luck
Alac

Why are they killing all the Pakistani soldiers they find? [:O]  The Pakistanis are our greatest ally in the region, and a Consumer Reports "best buy" at B$1. [;)]  We need to make sure we keep our score cards updated regularly, and encourage others to do the same.  Those Pakistanis were a couple of months behind the times.  

Yeah, well, it's better to think they are devilishly smart bastards and find out they're cowardly sonsofbitches than the other way around.

They are killing Pakistani taliban, the see them as the enemy-taliban and invaders of Afghanistan-Pakistani. I guess they can understand Afghanis taking sides in a civil war but don't like the idea of imported trouble makers.

Kabul, from the looks of it supplying Kabul requires a long route from Qandahar, first southeast then mostly north and a little to the west. It looks like the roads require twice the distance from "as the crow flies". I think they left Kabul because the military difficulties of re-supply and the tactical situation. Supposedly the taliban consider Qandahar their capitol............

I wouldn't be surprised if they left the cities and moved to the less settled areas, and did hit and run vs. targets of opportunity.Just because you control a city doesn't mean you control the countryside, ask the Russians.

It doesn't matter, I think, if the enemy is not so bloody clever and is running away. The minute you stop respecting any possible situation is the moment when something that should not have happened happens.  You can call me for giving the Taliban too much credit, but just the same keep American Forces out of Kabul.

 I think the theory that they are switching tactics has some credibility. Them going back to guerilla war would be plausable.  However the assertian made by someone that in the Soviet vs. Afghan war that the Afghan(mujahadeen) never occupied cities was wrong.  The afghans occupied the city of Kabul on numerous occassions during that war and it changed hands more than twice. During the end of the soviet occupation it changed hands to the afghans and remained that way.  Yes the US will find them. And the northern part of the country is now open to search the cave complexes left for Osama Bin Laden.

Benjamin

And I would remind the readers of the Korean War in 1952 when the Chinese/Koreans retreated back past the Chinese boarder and the American forces chased after them.  The retreating Chinese/Korean forces retreated through a line of waiting Chinese forces and the Americans, and General D McAuther ran headlong into a +1,000,000 men Chinese counter attack and didn't get those son of bitches stopped until they reached the 38th parallel.  Not that the afghans are gonna counter attack. It speaks to believing your enemy is wooped when they are not.

Benjamin

Ben, If you are refering to me I said "controlled any cities" occupying a city for a while and controlling it are different. I should have been clearer. The Russians controlled most of the populated areas and the mujahadeen were able to move around failry freely in the countryside. I don't think they have that freedom of movement right now. We also have far greater presicion bombing capabilities.

As far as the Korean War thing, yes you have a good point, But remember Anzio. The US Army landed and set up a solid beachead before moving inlnad fearing that if the didn't fortify the beach the could get pushed into the sea if a counteratack came. There were no German troops in the area. By waiting until the beach was secured it gave the Germans time to move an Army Group into position.

Momentum must be maintained but so must security. The generala will have great opportunities and the possibility of walking into traps. The need to assess the situation realistically and react/act accordingly. Some are posting like there will be a taliban behind every tree. There won't but there will be some taliban occupied trees for sure, we just need to be ready to take out trees as needed.

This may also give us time to consolidate gains and set up humanitarian relief in the captured areas. We seem to be winning on the battlefield and in public opinion world wide. We can't lose the mometum, political or militarily. I heard something about Iran joining us in the UN on some resolution declaring the taliban as international terrorists........ If we can win over and keep countries like Iran, the taliban will have very few friends, and resources.

Plus the taliban are suffering plenty of killed and injured, and osama bin laden is complaining that they aren't fighting the war properly, that's good for us too. If we can get obl from the taliban.......... then the NA and the taliban can figure out how to run Afghanistan. We may need to provide aid but it will get us out of there and maybe help our foriegn relations if we eliminate the terrorists there and keep this from becoming a religous type war, at least from our side.

I had that same feeling.  The war with Soviets was 10 years.  We drop a few bombs and a few of their own people point some guns and the taliban soldiers just run away?

Doesn't make any sense to me.  I am wondering about the terrorist aspect, and if there is something nasty waiting for the occupying forces...

wannabe

Anzio analogy taken Oly.  I understand about momentum also.  The NA is running after the Taliban.  That is good, and they should be killing as many of them as possible, MSNBC aside, because the media is apparently not understanding that the ones you don't kill today you have to fight tomorrow. And whether MSNBC realizes it or not the Taliban are not done.  Looking at this historically helps. When the russians seized Kabul and scattered the Afghans to the hills for the second time. The afghans then faced an army inside Kabul. They snuck into the town in the middle of the night and assaulted the russian base there as well. The Russians were so suprised that the afghans caught one Russian Colonial getting his pants on when they rushed into his sleeping quarters.

Want I am seeing, and my point is this, the Afghans have had better luck historically if they are the attackers and comming from the hills. So this move away from Kabul would put them into that position. But I don't know if they realize that this is a different enemy or not.  However, they don't seem to be doing anything but regrouping in another city to the south.  Which will afford them no better.

The one thing that is clear is that the Taliban are on the defensive and they can be made to stay that way with enough force.  If Osama is complaining than that is good. Because him bitching at the Taliban may turn them against him. In which case they will out him sooner or later.  Pushing the Taliban into saying if your so good why don't you fight too? type situation is exactly what I would like to see.  The Taliban are dying left and right for this Prick Osama and shit just ain't goin there way right now.  IF there is not a trap in Kabul, which I think there may be, then the Taliban need not occupy the town merely the outskirts. Fighting in the city is bad because it levels the playing field somewhat in any case.  House to House fighting is alot harder then open ground fighting with good ground.  If the NA goes into town and the Taliban surround the town then the NA is going to have problems. And since citizens abound in this town it will make US Air Strikes very difficult when the Taliban re-enter it.  Benjamin

Just read the local news website, they had a story that says the taliban are abadoning the cities including Qundahar. Also a group of taliban rebeled and took over an airfield outsdie Qundahar.

I suspect the guerilla part of the wars starts soon. But we have so few people on the ground, and we have an ally, the NA, that are also Afghanees. Remember the Mujahadeen didn't do so well until we started giving them bunches of tactical (man portable) weapons. The Russian won't be giving them weapons, at a minimum because the Afghanees under the taliban were helping the Chechens. Plus tactical weapons don't help against B-52's.

Start EDIT:

Ben, I agree with alot of what you said. There will certainly be ambushes and pockets of resistance. However the NA is doing the ground fighting. They may have an adavantage, they are AFGHANEES, not foriegners. So they people that were under taliban occupation may be VERY willing to help the NA root out the taliban as payback, or because some of the NA troops are thier relatives.

I don't think they should be killing captured taliban. That makes it less likely that taliban troops will surrender in the future. It also means that the relatives of taliban killed after surrender will hate the NA and any government they bring. That is also a recipe for terrorism. We need to beat the taliban but not allow atrocities. taliban seem like a well organized militiristic religous group. If they lose osama bin laden etc. they may fade, we don't want them to become martyrs agains the US.

I don't know what advantage Seizing the Airport will give them??? That is odd.  

Benjamin

The Taliban would have been safer holed up in Kabul then they will be now. Especially from US Air Strikes.  I can't really make heads or tails of their decision to leave.  The Political situation as mentioned above does not really matter much.  Everyone expects the Taliban to loose Kabul, leaving it does not do them any harm politically.  I still am leaning towards keeping US Troops out of Kabul. There is no reason at this moment to send them in there.

Benjamin
Plus This whole argument has been made larger because Kabul is the Capital , but that doesn't matter a hill of beans in a war and all tactics and strategy still apply.  So I would say that the leaving of Kabul is nothing important as Kabul is not important either.  It is the Capital of a lawless country and as such is not more important than any other town. Except all the roads that go into that town it is not much.

?????? yeah really, unless there are still aviation assets there. Or perhaps a unit that was assinged to guard the airfield decided en masse they wanted to be on the other side.

The key has always been Kandahar. that is the spiritual and political capital of the Taliban. It is great that Kabul has fallen, but we still have aways to go yet. And even if we can take the city of Kandahar, there are still Talibs hidden in the hills of the south. Hopefully once OBL and Omar are gone, the remainder of the Taliban will become too disorganized and not be able to fight effectively.

Kinda like our civil war
TAKE THE SOUTH!!!