What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions?

Quoted: What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions?

I'm by no means an expert, but IMHO BJJ works, is easy to learn and practical.  Me and my friend were wrasling around a little and the situations you find yourself in seem to be very simliar to the situations we trained for doing army combatives.

Quoted: Quoted: What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions? I'm by no means an expert, but IMHO BJJ works, is easy to learn and practical.  Me and my friend were wrasling around a little and the situations you find yourself in seem to be very simliar to the situations we trained for doing army combatives.

??

Take a self defense course from a reputable instructor.

Martial Arts ...no metter what kind is a life long endevor and the focus is not nesseserily self defense.

Self defense is violent, no rules and starts with your attitude ...your willingness to defend yourself at all cost.

So it depends in how much time you want to invest

Quoted: Take a self defense course from a reputable instructor. Martial Arts ...no metter what kind is a life long endevor and the focus is not nesseserily self defense. Self defense is violent, no rules and starts with your attitude ...your willingness to defend yourself at all cost. So it depends in how much time you want to invest

That is just it, not really interested in a "life long" endeavor.  Just some training on some basic moves, skills.

BJJ


brasilian jiu jitsu

Just go start some fights in some bars, and you will find out what works, and what doesn't. Just go up and grope some guys girlfriend.

Practice makes perfect

Look for a self defense class in your area....don't shy away from classes for women....that focus on technic not strength which is good

Self defense is all about getting out alife....short violent encounter and tehn get the hell out of there

Depends on what your own physical abilities are, your approach, what you can afford, what you can find, what you want to do with it.

I do a mixed martial arts form called Lung Fu Do, but also have a background in wrestling, judo, kung fu, that I add in.  My preferred fighting style is Glock, if it gets to hand to hand, it probably means I am out of ammo.

My style is more of a lets do the minimum and no do unnecessary damage.  I am much more aggressive and will combine various elements from other forms and styles and use it to disable and subdue with a much more aggressive approach.  Thus what I do does not lend itself to competition or point sparring and fighting.  When I spar, it is whatever works.  My style also involves some weapons like escrima or bo staff.  

I pay about $105 a month for me and my two kids, most places charge $125 a month for one person, just depends on what you find.  Find a style you like.

My preference is a kung fu style, with a mix of jujitsu thrown in.  Most dojos will let you come a couple of times, watch, try it out a couple of sessions, see if you like it.  I have to admit that I do not care for tae kwan do.  A lot of people like krav maga, silat?, sambo, etc .

Quoted: Look for a self defense class in your area....don't shy away from classes for women....that focus on technic not strength which is good

[Bobby Hill]
That's my purse!  I don't know you!
(kick to the groin)
[/Bobby Hill]

I spent a few years in a system combining karate w/ a little jiujtsu.  It was OK, but very form/kata involved.  The techniques were fairly lethal and/or injurious, so sparring was forbidden.  I wouldn't suggest it as a quick way to learn street fighting, and I'm looking to another system when re-starting MA.

Beat Feet.

keep in mind you are talking about self defense not sport...so the same rules aply as with your gun.....you have to justify the level of violence

I've had the opportunity to sit in on some self defense classes, and they can teach you some things, but being good at unarmed self defense boils down to a couple things that can't be taught as techniques, only by experience:  1)the willingness to take a hit and deal with pain without panicking and folding, 2)the willingness to hurt someone (it's harder than you think to overcome) and 3)the determination not to quit.
You can defend yourself with BJJ, boxing, karate or whatever, but knowing the moves to make is maybe 10% of the equation.

Quoted: Quoted: Take a self defense course from a reputable instructor. Martial Arts ...no metter what kind is a life long endevor and the focus is not nesseserily self defense. Self defense is violent, no rules and starts with your attitude ...your willingness to defend yourself at all cost. So it depends in how much time you want to invest That is just it, not really interested in a "life long" endeavor.  Just some training on some basic moves, skills.

In my opinion, you cant effectively learn hand to hand combat without making it a life long endeavor. Learning a few basic moves during a one-time class is basically learning nothing at all. As people above have stated, unless you practice these moves on a regular basis, the odds of you actually doing them effectively in a real situation is probably close to nothing.



<------- Ju jitsu for this guy

Quoted: I've had the opportunity to sit in on some self defense classes, and they can teach you some things, but being good at unarmed self defense boils down to a couple things that can't be taught as techniques, only by experience:  1)the willingness to take a hit and deal with pain without panicking and folding, 2)the willingness to hurt someone (it's harder than you think to overcome) and 3)the determination not to quit. You can defend yourself with BJJ, boxing, karate or whatever, but knowing the moves to make is maybe 10% of the equation.

(((( DING ))))

I've taken Shotokan Karate which was mostly katas and doing sparring.  Looking for a new martial art, I would shy away from the traditional arts and go towards a mixed art with some sort of striking (muay thai or boxing) and BJJ as others have said.

Quoted: What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions?

What you want is some kind of NASTY martial art.  One that is not very friendly toward sporting events.  One that utilizes some joint locks, pressure points, soft tissue strikes...mean stuff.  

I take American kenpo mixed with chin-na.  The kenpo is good against street style attacks from one or multiple attackers.  BJJ, in my opinion, is good against one attacker.  If you have multiple people ganging up on you it would be a bad idea to wrap one guy up and take him to the ground.  The others will just stomp you at that point.  

If a person is carrying a firearm, I feel they are negligent if they dont know some form of empty-hand self-protection. There are times where you have to be able to fight a person off in order to draw your weapon and there may be times where you have to fight a person to keep control of your firearm. Also, depending solely on a firearm for personal protection shows a huge hole in your self-defense game.


When it comes to specific systems, it is kind of a toss-up. Traditional systems (karate, kung-fu,etc) can often provide you with useable skill; however it takes a longer period of time and you have to spend considerable time sorting through what is applicable and what isnt. Sport based systems (Judo, boxing, Brazilian JiuJistu,etc) offer the syudent more readily applicable skills in a quicker to use format; however the system is governed by the rules of the game they play so everything might not be applicable to your needs. Pure self-protection systems (material by guys such as Hock Hoccheim, Tony Blauer, etc) provide the best option for most people. They give the student applicable skills and cover most the bases that the student needs (emptyhand, blunt/edged weapons). The problem with these systems is finding someone in yuor area to train with.

Quoted: One that is not very friendly toward sporting events.  One that utilizes some joint locks, pressure points, soft tissue strikes...mean stuff.

Avoid pressure point stuff unless you are working you are just trying to control a person (think the angry,drunk friend scenerio).

Quoted: Quoted: What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions? What you want is some kind of NASTY martial art.  One that is not very friendly toward sporting events.  One that utilizes some joint locks, pressure points, soft tissue strikes...mean stuff.   I take American kenpo mixed with chin-na.  The kenpo is good against street style attacks from one or multiple attackers. BJJ, in my opinion, is good against one attacker.  If you have multiple people ganging up on you it would be a bad idea to wrap one guy up and take him to the ground.  The others will just stomp you at that point.

If you are in a hand-hand fight against multiple attackers, you are going to lose (assuming they are competent and of average size). No martial art training is going to save you, unless it helps you run fast.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Take a self defense course from a reputable instructor. Martial Arts ...no metter what kind is a life long endevor and the focus is not nesseserily self defense. Self defense is violent, no rules and starts with your attitude ...your willingness to defend yourself at all cost. So it depends in how much time you want to invest That is just it, not really interested in a "life long" endeavor.  Just some training on some basic moves, skills. In my opinion, you cant effectively learn hand to hand combat without making it a life long endeavor. Learning a few basic moves during a one-time class is basically learning nothing at all. As people above have stated, unless you practice these moves on a regular basis, the odds of you actually doing them effectively in a real situation is probably close to nothing. <------- Ju jitsu for this guy

Not to be argumentative, but I have to disagree with your opinion. Col. Rex Applegate's techniques (such as the "combatives" Aimless mentioned above) were designed to just that, and have proven themselves time and time again since WWII.

While any person with such training will never dominate any form of martial arts competition, plenty have proven the techniques work on the street and battlefield.

I'm reminded of Col. Beckwith's account of the first US Army audit of the early Delta teams. The Delta command was informed that they would have to demonstrate their hand to hand and martial arts skills, pitting Beckwith's operators against the Army's top martial arts guru. The only problem was that in the time since Delta had been formed, they'd never done any type of martial arts training - so he just selected a few guys that had no training and sent them in against the expert. When the expert finally got out of the hospital he was given a medical discharge with disability benefits.

Quoted: If you are in a hand-hand fight against multiple attackers, you are going to lose (assuming they are competent and of average size). No martial art training is going to save you, unless it helps you run fast.

When dealing with multiple aggressors your goal is to survive; not win the encounter.  If you are standing and fighting with multiples you are an idiot and are setting yourself up for failuire. You should eb using yoru tools to create a window of oppertunity to escape the situation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What avenue should I go down to learn some unarmed self defense moves?  I can not carry always, everywhere, so I would like a physical backup plan.  Any suggestions? What you want is some kind of NASTY martial art.  One that is not very friendly toward sporting events.  One that utilizes some joint locks, pressure points, soft tissue strikes...mean stuff.   I take American kenpo mixed with chin-na.  The kenpo is good against street style attacks from one or multiple attackers. BJJ, in my opinion, is good against one attacker.  If you have multiple people ganging up on you it would be a bad idea to wrap one guy up and take him to the ground.  The others will just stomp you at that point.   If you are in a hand-hand fight against multiple attackers, you are going to lose (assuming they are competent and of average size). No martial art training is going to save you, unless it helps you run fast.

Oh I agree with you and didn't mean that you will be able to take on multiple people for a full fight.  I just meant it allows you to fend off people long enough to beat feet.  You are right.

Quoted: Quoted: One that is not very friendly toward sporting events.  One that utilizes some joint locks, pressure points, soft tissue strikes...mean stuff.   Avoid pressure point stuff unless you are working you are just trying to control a person (think the angry,drunk friend scenerio).

If I am dealing with one person and I don't want to destroy them then I'll probably try for some joint locks.  Like a drunk friend.  Now joint locks can easily be turned into joint breaks.

Something that teaches defense until you can run away, which could be any traditional art.  

Then some wrestling to work on takedown defense, ground escapes, and clinch fighting.

Then some BJJ to work on ground defense.

You should be good to go after all that!

If you want a self defense system look into Krav Maga. It's not a Martial Art but a system, its taught to Israli military.  Its fast, real world training and as a LEO would highly recommend it to anyone looking for self defense.  I've trained in TKD, BJJ, and some Aikido.  Found a good school for Krav Maga and find it very valuable to my line of work and life in general.  It's like they've taken out all the BS that's not going to work and are giving you what will from several styles.

From my limited fighting experience, street fighting is far better then martial arts.
I have lost and won fights, most of the scrappers beat the shit out of me, I took what they did to
me and used it the enxt time. Wrestlers are also the hardest to beat. I personally think
just as another person stateted, willinginess to inflict pain on others, fight throught he pain
from them and the will to not quit are key to winning any fight.

Also just stay alert of your surroundings and look as if you belong in that atmosphere.

My $0.02

Krav Maga

An Israeli self defense system that essentially teaches you how to disable an aggressor as quickly and thoroughly as possible. My understanding is that the only "rule" is to inflict maximum pain quickly.

Quoted: From my limited fighting experience, street fighting is far better then martial arts. I have lost and won fights, most of the scrappers beat the shit out of me, I took what they did to me and used it the enxt time. Wrestlers are also the hardest to beat. I personally think just as another person stateted, willinginess to inflict pain on others, fight throught he pain from them and the will to not quit are key to winning any fight. Also just stay alert of your surroundings and look as if you belong in that atmosphere. My $0.02

It sounds like what you're getting at is experience is key.  I think martial arts will help but you have to have the mindset or you're going down.  You have to expect to get hurt or you've already lost.  

An club that will do sparing sessions or mock fighting is probably best.  If you never experience a real punch coming in, don't expect to dodge it and counter it.  

Quoted: Quoted: If you are in a hand-hand fight against multiple attackers, you are going to lose (assuming they are competent and of average size). No martial art training is going to save you, unless it helps you run fast. When dealing with multiple aggressors your goal is to survive; not win the encounter.  If you are standing and fighting with multiples you are an idiot and are setting yourself up for failuire. You should eb using yoru tools to create a window of oppertunity to escape the situation.

I've never fought multiple oppnents, but I have sparred them (I sparred in 2 on 1 matches, on both sides of the equation). My experience was that the 1 did well against the 2 . . . part of this was because the outnumbered guy was performing at 100%, while the guys with the numerical advantage were lax. Also, getting two people to work well togethor & coordinate was difficult. Every time I was part of a team of 2, I would have done better alone, the other guy just got in the way.

If you face two guys who properly coordinate and who are aggressive, it would be very, very difficult, but proper coordination and aggressivness are not easy to achieve.

That said, I think that the plan should be to escape ASAP; if you go down with someone and he has a buddy you just lost.

As for fighting style, obviously you need a mixed martial art of sometype. I'd suggest a basis in BJJ for groundwork, and add in boxing and at least one kicking style of art. It is worth putting is some effort to build up skills, but once learns the skills don't perish quickly.

Take a look at some of the stuff Larry Tatum does.  Again, I'm not saying this is the end all be all but it is something I have knowledge in and know it can be very effective.

Tip of the week.

Quoted: I've never fought multiple oppnents, but I have sparred them (I sparred in 2 on 1 matches, on both sides of the equation). My experience was that the 1 did well against the 2 . . . part of this was because the outnumbered guy was performing at 100%, while the guys with the numerical advantage were lax. Also, getting two people to work well togethor & coordinate was difficult. Every time I was part of a team of 2, I would have done better alone, the other guy just got in the way.

This is a part of the problem of thinking that sparring equals true fighting.  In most street encounters, you wont see multiple attackers dancing around waiting for thier shot at you. They will typically rush you and go from there.

It is worth putting is some effort to build up skills, but once learns the skills don't perish quickly.

Unarmed skills are as perishable as firearm skills.

There appear to be two Krav Maga schools in Jacksonville, FL.

The best fighter I knew was a guy who wrestled and boxed his whole life, he also did BJJ.  The main thing that he taught me is you could be a complete badass but you go to grapple with some dude and he sticks a blade in your side badass or not your fucked...

I have studied both American Kenpo Karate and Brazilian JiuJitsu.  Both have their good points.   Right now I study BJJ only, it works better for me and is more practical to study.
I don't think is fair to say that karate is inferior, but I do think that it is harder to practice.
With JiuJitsu you can work on sparring a lot.  You can use force and go pretty fast when practicing grappling, and holds.  Its harder to train and spar using an art like Kenpo, because you cannot practice things like an eye gouge on your friends.

Quoted: Krav Maga An Israeli self defense system that essentially teaches you how to disable an aggressor as quickly and thoroughly as possible. My understanding is that the only "rule" is to inflict maximum pain quickly.

+1

Quoted: This is a part of the problem of thinking that sparring equals true fighting.  In most street encounters, you wont see multiple attackers dancing around waiting for thier shot at you. They will typically rush you and go from there.

I didn't say that sparing equals true fighting.

However, we were not "dancing around waiting our shot". It would have been very difficult to make a simple "rush" effective; the "victim" usually moves so as to engage only one of you at a time. Furthermore, it is hard to coordinate attacks, and since not all attackers are as motivated or confident, some will tend to hold back.

What you describe might very well be true when criminals plan an ambush against an unsuspecting victim, but it doesn't match any actual fights I've seen.

Quoted: Unarmed skills are as perishable as firearm skills.

I haven't found either to be particularly perishable.

1st order of engagement.  Avoid!!  If it looks funny, feels funny, just not right.  IT IS! Stay Away

2nd order be committed to Attack. Destroy. Castaway. Runaway.

3rd order always carry a force multiplier with you even if its a pencil

4th order BE FEROCIOUS!

*Strike first, strike fast, and work close.    

*Be fully committed to create avenue of escape and take it. Don't stay around. Don’t look back. Stay focused on flight. Don’t worry about calling the cops.

*Keep hands open This offers a greater area of striking, is more forgiving on targeting, and allows you to grab and redirect bad guys force away from you.

*Avoid going to the ground

*Always remember to quickly stop aggression towards you, you must take ones ability to See, Breath, Stand, or Disrupt the computer   So Target one or better yet multiple combination of targets and be committed to destroy it!  Never ever rely on the 1950's philosophy of one punch its over and walk away mentality.

*Strike, Transition, Castaway,

As others, I will also say KRAV however there are others schools to look for ideally those that teach Atemi (combative) Ju-Jitsu styles.  Not BJJ as pointed out its more a style geared to pit fighting (ground work albeit very lethal!).  Kata is cool and definitely has a place (of respect with in me) in all traditional art forms, Sparring is better even though its controlled. However systems that focus movement to survival is the best and it starts with the mind.

Peace
SteelTalon

Quoted: I didn't say that sparing equals true fighting.

Your post certainly gives that impression.

However, we were not "dancing around waiting our shot".

I have seen very few sparring sessions that werent some form of "give and take". I kind of doubt that the sparring session you are talking about would be any different.

It would have been very difficult to make a simple "rush" effective; the "victim" usually moves so as to engage only one of you at a time. Furthermore, it is hard to coordinate attacks, and since not all attackers are as motivated or confident, some will tend to hold back.

This is another comment that seems to blur the line between sparring and reality. A simple rush by several guys can be fairly difficult to defend against. Seen it and expereinced it.

What you describe might very well be true when criminals plan an ambush against an unsuspecting victim, but it doesn't match any actual fights I've seen.

Matches what I have seen in real fights and during training. It also goes along with what many knowledgable instrcutors cite.

Quoted: Unarmed skills are as perishable as firearm skills.

I haven't found either to be particularly perishable.

Then I can think of three things:

1) You are a phenom when it comes to fighting and shooting

2) You arent trained to a high degree in either

3) You dont really know what you are talking about

Quoted: I found that the fastest way to stop someone is to  hit them as hard as you can in the nose, your hand is going to hurt, but they are going to go down.

Punching someone is the face/head isnt the smartest thing to do. While it is instict to do so; it is extremely easy end up with a boxer's fracture and still have to continue on with a fight.  I would suggest using your elbows, knees, or a brick instead of your hand(s)

Learn self defense that will not cause harm others or you run the risk of being charged with assault. If the police determine through witnesses that the level of force you use does not equal the threat you get charged. Don't use more force than necessary.

Quoted: I have seen very few sparring sessions that werent some form of "give and take". I kind of doubt that the sparring session you are talking about would be any different.

Beside the dojo sparing I mentioned, I also spared several "home boys" who had previously been incarcerated. And I witnessed a few fights, as far abroad as Colombia.

Quoted: Then I can think of three things: 1) You are a phenom when it comes to fighting and shooting 2) You arent trained to a high degree in either 3) You dont really know what you are talking about

I'm not simply talking about my skills; I've noticed that others have maintained skills after absense from shooting and martial arts training. I've seen people take several years off and come right back in at the level they left.

And no, I'm not talking about people with a low level of training/skill. In the early stages of development the skills can be lost quickly, perhaps that's the source of your confusion.

Some things that have been implied, but not said outright.

Kata are not, and never were, intended to be rote techniques for dealing with real combat.  kata are building blocks designed to teach techniques within a dynamic situation.  Instead of throwing a punch, you throw a punch within the context of a combination of techniques and movements.  When you achieve some level of mastery over various kata, you develop the ability to improvise with the individual techniques within.  But without LOTS of practice, that mastery cannot be achieved, the neural/muscular net won't remember what it is supposed to do.

Kata also often include breath control exercises that serve multiple functions including teaching how to focus energy to deliver and receive attacks effectively.  Try taking a gut shot when you are inhaling, vs. exhaling.  Big difference there, but without practicing and inculcating proper breath control (kokyu) into your training regimen, simply knowing when to do what won't matter, because under stress your body will do what it is used to doing, not necessarily what it should.

It is important to keep self-defense techniques fairly simple as fine motor skills go out the window under stress and your ability and available time to dredge up just the right technique to deal with the attack  is going to be nil.  Better to have a couple techniques/concepts that you can do automatically that work adequately in most situations, than a couple dozen techniques that work perfectly within a couple dozen specific situations.

Brazilan Jiu jitsu or other ground fighting discipline is a good thing to add into your training, but as someone else has stated, going to the ground is not usually the best option, as you are imobile and defenseless against secondary attackers...and lets face it, scumbags are typically cowards who travel in packs.

Practice, practice, practice.  Spar.  Spar with training weapons like rubber knives and the like.  Learn to enter.  Learn timing...more than speed and strength, timing makes all the difference. You don't need to be strong or fast if your timing is good. you'll be able to be where you need to be to attack and not be where you don't need to be when it's time to defend.

Attacks always come in multiples.  Just about anyone can deal with the first punch, but you cannot be waiting to deal with the second punch till after it is initiated, a good fighter is already dealing with it  before it has been initiated, and is already moving into the next exchange, but NONE of this is possible without training and practice.

For the record, my martial art is Shorei Kosho Ryu kempo through the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai line headed by Bruce Juchnik.

Quoted: Beside the dojo sparing I mentioned, I also spared several "home boys" who had previously been incarcerated. And I witnessed a few fights, as far abroad as Colombia.

Good for you. I've been training with various people in various country for a number of years.  Saw my share of fights happen while living in Europe in addition to studying video footage from various places.

I'm not simply talking about my skills; I've noticed that others have maintained skills after absense from shooting and martial arts training. I've seen people take several years off and come right back in at the level they left.

I have yet to see anyone take a complete absence from any physical sport and be able to return at the level they were when they were constantly training and/or competing.

And no, I'm not talking about people with a low level of training/skill. In the early stages of development the skills can be lost quickly, perhaps that's the source of your confusion.

I'm not talking about just people with a low level of skill; I'm talking about 99% of people regardless of skill level.