Pascal's Wager: how a very famous mathematician explained why he believed in God

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pascal's Wager: how a very famous mathematician explained why he believed in God

Posted: 10/10/2007 7:43:51 PM EDT

Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:00:03 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Which god?

The word "God" is plural

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:01:29 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
His math works for me and I understand it.

Works every day of my life.

Now when we get to the divinity of prophets........................

5sub

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:07:52 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Which god?

Also, the price of belief is not zero.

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:39:17 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
And you don't see anything wrong with the fact that ; The only reason this person, and many others, believe in god, is because they fear repercussions? If religion is based solely on fear of god, I'll stick without it, thanks.

+1 on that! I'm a good man and try my darndest to treat people right because it makes my heart feel good and it's the right thing to do, not because I fear going to the "wrong" place in the afterlife or trying to gain points to go to the "right" place.

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:56:03 PM EDT

[#5]

And besides that mathematically, what do you think the odds are that all this just "happened"? The fact that the world and our solar system and the universe works so well.
The sun rises every day. Four seasons. Gravity. The amount of oxygen we have. The temperature of earth. Clean drinking water and proper food.

Think of this. With most things on earth they expand when heated. Steel, wood, gases it does not matter Heat expands things right? Also heat rises correct?

Now think of water. When it freezes it expands. Frozen water (ice) floats on top of liquid water. If this did not happen, if ice sank there would be no life on earth. The world would have flooded and I think froze over.

But back to where I started.......
Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

Posted: 10/10/2007 8:58:21 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

If it didnt work that way we wouldnt be here.

And if we arent here we cant ask that question.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:00:11 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

That's not correct. You lose many many opportunities for hedonistic pleasure if you live as though "God exists". Depriving yourself of a lifetime of increased pleasure just in case god really exists is just the sort of trade off I would never make.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:05:05 PM EDT

[#8]

the assumptions are fallible. Pascal may have been good at math, but he sucked at philosophy.

Did he ever think for once that maybe you get to heaven by not submitting to a god? Maybe the real God is up there watching to see if you take the easy way out and submit to a false god. Thereby, the ones who dont submit (atheists and agnostics) are the ones who get to go to heaven.

Fucked up huh. But possible? Oh, only as possible as any other way of "getting to heaven".

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:05:36 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
And besides that mathematically, what do you think the odds are that all this just "happened"? The fact that the world and our solar system and the universe works so well.
The sun rises every day. Four seasons. Gravity. The amount of oxygen we have. The temperature of earth. Clean drinking water and proper food.

Think of this. With most things on earth they expand when heated. Steel, wood, gases it does not matter Heat expands things right? Also heat rises correct?

Now think of water. When it freezes it expands. Frozen water (ice) floats on top of liquid water. If this did not happen, if ice sank there would be no life on earth. The world would have flooded and I think froze over.

But back to where I started.......
Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

If it didn't, we would be very different, or not here at all to ask that very question.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:10:23 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

That's not correct. You lose many many opportunities for hedonistic pleasure if you live as though "God exists". Depriving yourself of a lifetime of increased pleasure just in case god really exists is just the sort of trade off I would never make.

Mathematically it's true:

Anytime infinite is involved, things become either infinite or zero. Infinite divided by 100,000 is zero. Likewise, 100,000/infinite is zero.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:12:07 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

Maybe it's the only way that it COULD have happened. Nature takes the path of least resistance.

For all we know, there could be billions of other systems with sentient life. Maybe "this" is the norm for the universe.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:15:52 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

That's not correct. You lose many many opportunities for hedonistic pleasure if you live as though "God exists". Depriving yourself of a lifetime of increased pleasure just in case god really exists is just the sort of trade off I would never make.

Mathematically it's true:

Anytime infinite is involved, things become either infinite or zero. Infinite divided by 100,000 is zero. Likewise, 100,000/infinite is zero.

In order for an equation to work in mathematics you must be able to prove it. I got an A in statistics.

As was mentioned before, Pascal was a great mathematician, but a very crappy philosopher. The only reason anybody perpetuates this silly little non-formula is because it reinforces their illogical beliefs.

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:28:30 PM EDT

[#13]

God exists. Why do we need a guy who wrote one of the worst programing languages to tell us that?

Its faith, you shouldnt make an IF - THEN process out of it.

If you believe because you use the Pascal logic of "whats to loose" then do you really believe or are you taking a chance?

Posted: 10/10/2007 9:48:33 PM EDT

[#14]

Which level of probability did he solve?

Posted: 10/10/2007 10:51:49 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

That's not correct. You lose many many opportunities for hedonistic pleasure if you live as though "God exists". Depriving yourself of a lifetime of increased pleasure just in case god really exists is just the sort of trade off I would never make.

I don't think you're taking into account the last minute conversion after a life of partying and chicks

Posted: 10/10/2007 10:59:48 PM EDT

[#16]

I personally do not believe god exists. For me if there is a god why is there so much suffering in the world (some of which Ive seen 1st hand), and if he allows his followers to go through that then I dont want anything to do with him/it. I also personally believe religion is something people are born into IE if you are from India most likely you are Hindu but if you come from the US most likely you are some form of Christianity. Both people are just as passionate about their religions but since one doesnt believe in God that automatically sends them to hell? Again I dont want anything to do with a god that would do that.

I live my life the best I can morally, and Ill deal with the consequences if any after Im scooped up by mr. death. I think thats about all a person can do in this world.

As far as Wagner's comments you do have something to lose if you believe in god and it turns out he doesnt exist and you dont go to heaven. You have just spent a significant portion of your life devoted to something that never existed in the 1st place.

Posted: 10/11/2007 3:50:09 PM EDT

[#17]

height=8

Quoted:
Anytime infinite is involved, things become either infinite or zero. Infinite divided by 100,000 is zero. Likewise, 100,000/infinite is zero.

I don't believe that the first part is correct.

Infinite divided by 100,00 is Infinite. (not zero).

BZ

Posted: 10/11/2007 4:04:30 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
And besides that mathematically, what do you think the odds are that all this just "happened"? The fact that the world and our solar system and the universe works so well.
The sun rises every day. Four seasons. Gravity. The amount of oxygen we have. The temperature of earth. Clean drinking water and proper food.

Think of this. With most things on earth they expand when heated. Steel, wood, gases it does not matter Heat expands things right? Also heat rises correct?

Now think of water. When it freezes it expands. Frozen water (ice) floats on top of liquid water. If this did not happen, if ice sank there would be no life on earth. The world would have flooded and I think froze over.

But back to where I started.......
Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

Meanwhile, on a planet in another part of the galaxy...

Sentient life-forms that breath nitrogen are saying to themselves, "Wow, how was it possible for our planet to be so perfect? If the temperature ever exceeded -40 degrees we would all die of heat, but our planet is the perfect distance from the red giant for us to stay comfortably cold. The atmosphere has plenty of nitrogen and only a trace of deadly oxygen. We never have to worry about the ice melting and destroying us. We have all the nutrition we need with our limitless lakes of liquid ammonia", etc.

"Obviously, Almighty Snork the Sky-Slizerq created us in his image and created this wonderful, life nourishing planet for us to inhabit! What are the chances of it being otherwise!"

ETA: Snork the Sky-Slizerq has obviously found favor with my post and granted me ownership of your page 2.

Posted: 10/11/2007 4:08:15 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Blaise Pascal was a mathematical genius who created probability (because he liked to gamble). To Pascal..Mathematics was a Hobby.. He also helped found Game Theory..and made a very famous application of it when asked why he was a Christian.

Basically the argument goes like this:

* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

In other words: the payoff for believing in God and worshipping him is infinite (IF TRUE)..
and amounts to a little loss in time (and money) IF FALSE

That's not correct. You lose many many opportunities for hedonistic pleasure if you live as though "God exists". Depriving yourself of a lifetime of increased pleasure just in case god really exists is just the sort of trade off I would never make.

It's still a good wager.

Waste 75 years living a pious life, and die for an infinity of non-being.
Or waste 75 years living like hell and enjoying it, and die for an infinity of Hell.

The pious life isn't so bad, you know.

Posted: 10/11/2007 4:27:17 PM EDT

[#20]

Pascal's wager is so trite and naive that it's amazing that anyone would put it forth for consideration.

Posted: 10/11/2007 4:33:36 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
And besides that mathematically, what do you think the odds are that all this just "happened"? The fact that the world and our solar system and the universe works so well.
The sun rises every day. Four seasons. Gravity. The amount of oxygen we have. The temperature of earth. Clean drinking water and proper food.

Think of this. With most things on earth they expand when heated. Steel, wood, gases it does not matter Heat expands things right? Also heat rises correct?

Now think of water. When it freezes it expands. Frozen water (ice) floats on top of liquid water. If this did not happen, if ice sank there would be no life on earth. The world would have flooded and I think froze over.

But back to where I started.......
Mathematically, what do you think the odds are that it just all came together by chance?

Well if time is infinite... then it can or can't happen... Probability aproaches as does infinity... As for the too many coincidences... we wouldn't be here to question it unless it just happened... As for the sun rising and lowering every day... we don't know anything different unless you live in Alaska...

My theory... Time is infinite, so anything that can happen will or will not eventually. By this theory God is real... but also nonexistent... Reincarnation could be thrown in aswell... Infinity is A LOOOOOONG time. I am living NOW. Maybe as a human on earth as a male. But who isn't to say that after I die a billion years will passed and I'll be reborn into a snake? And who isn't to say that we all have lived infinite lives before this? Can you prove it right? No. Can you prove it wrong? No.

We're back to ground zero but thats the way the cookie crumbles...
j0hn

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pascal's Wager: how a very famous mathematician explained why he believed in God

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